22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[The Light]

Jesus does not say after the great tribulation. So the first 4 seals is not the great tribulation.

The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows.
Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The beginning of sorrows are also the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse, which are the 1st four seals.

The 5th Seal is the glorification of the church, not a tribulation.

The fifth seal is the great tribulation.

Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Jesus says after the tribulation of those days. After the first 4 seals, immediately the Second Coming happens, the 5th and 6th Seals.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. This should be simple. The sixth seal is opened and we get the signs.
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

We can see the tribulation is over when these signs happen.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The first 4 Seals are not the whole church age. There is a specific first Seal that is opened.

The Church age is OVER before the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel when God turns His attention to Israel

The great tribulation is the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

No brother. The tribulation is over before Jesus comes at the 6th seal. The seventh seal is then opened which is the wrath of God. The 6th trumpet and the 7 thunders are part of the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath so we will not be here during wrath, and as I said, the Church will already be in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened.

The AoD is Satan's 42 months after the 7th Trumpet has sounded and that week is split into 2 parts. It is the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet that is Daniel 9:27.

No brother. Look what happens when the 7th trumpet is blown. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means Christ has returned and Armageddon is already over.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Again, the mystery of God is FINISHED when the 7th angel begins to sound.
Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

If the week is split in half, Jesus and the 144k go to mount Zion, and leave Jerusalem. That is when Satan sits on the throne, and declares himself God. Deceiving those left that he has gained the victory over Jesus and the 144k. At that point those people need to flee Judaea to get away from Satan's deception and lies. They need to have time to make that decision that is either taking the mark, or chopping their head off.

The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. What you see with the 144,000 takes place in the seals.

The church leaves before the Trumpets and Thunders, the GT. The firstfruits of the Millennium leave before Satan's 42 months. Those beheaded leave during Satan's 42 months. All humanity is killed at Armageddon, and no one is left of Adam's dead corruptible flesh at that point.

The Church is already in heaven BEFORE the SEALS ARE OPENED. Here are 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns.

Rev 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

You don't get crowns until Jesus returns. So Jesus has come for His Church before the seals are opened. That is when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in and part of Israel has its blindness removed. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

WPM denies the figure seen below will be a future human man, do you also deny this future human man, a simple yes/no will do?

Interesting! You don't like it when you don't receive a straightforward answer? Now you know what it's like to be us when we ask you questions! LOL.

I said I've already told you more than once. If you weren't paying attention when I've told you before, what will make you remember what I say now? I agree with WPM on this as I've told you multiple times before. How long will it take you to forget what I've told you this time?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Im not bogged down in semantics. Am I…?

You were in that previous post. Spent all that time talking about what's not symbolic. Whatever. Who cares what you want to call it when text is not meant to be taken literally? Use whatever word you want for that. Just call it non-literal if you don't like the word "symbolic". It doesn't matter.

No, of course I don’t believe the word thousand is used there as a literal or exact measure.

Okay then. Was this so hard to acknowledge?

It was used to make a statement, not to give a precise measure.

Exactly. So, why couldn't the term "thousand" be used that way in Revelation 20 as well. I'm not trying to get you to see that it is that way, but can you acknowledge that it could be used that way there? Some won't even acknowledge that. A few have even tried to argue that since the "thousand years" is referenced six times that somehow means it is literal (huh?).

Just as if I said, there’s five million ants in my kitchen right now, I’m not using five million as any sort of exact measure, as most people would understand.

I won a lottery for 5 million dollars would be meant to convey an exact measure, as most people would also understand.

So if I read a verse and see an exact measure is not intended in that verse, why would I assume it must mean that (and especially if God repeats it six times in rapid succession) He can’t then ever use that number AS an exact measure?

LOL. Here you are doing the exact thing that I just referred to above! How does the number of times the term is used have anything to do with whether it's being used literally or not? The beast is referenced over 30 times in the book of Revelation. Does that make it a literal beast?

I mean, if someone told you I won five million dollars, would you say, psh, one time she told me she had five million ants in her kitchen so I don’t think she meant she won five million dollars?

LOL. What kind of logic is this that you're using? I don't get it. I am NOT saying that the term "thousand" MUST be taken figuratively in Revelation 20 just because it is used figuratively elsewhere in scripture. I'm just saying that it CAN be understood figuratively because of that, so it's something that people should at least consider instead of assuming that it has to be literal.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows.
Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Yes. Very good. Thanks.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay then. Was this so hard to acknowledge?

lol. I’ve acknowledged it. And now I’ve acknowledged it again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don’t think I’m following your reasoning here. Miracles are always extremely unlikely normally. Normally, it is extremely unlikely for a large body of water to stand up and a path go through it. Normally it is extremely unlikely that a man would bring a heartstopped dead man back to life.

Normally 10 men wouldn’t sign a contract together and it be null an hour later because of a stunningly major catastrophe.

Have I got my point across? Like…everything God ever did, all miracles, of Himself or of Himself through others, were not extremely likely to occur in the natural, nay, they were IMPOSSIBLE in or of the natural…

I always use too many words! Grrr…

So, are you trying to tell me that a miracle will make it so that the ten kings referenced in Revelation 17:12 will reign with the beast for only 60 minutes? If so, I don't believe that makes any sense. Why would that happen? If that isn't what you're trying to tell me, then I have no idea of what you're trying to tell me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

lol. I’ve acknowledged it. And now I’ve acknowledged it again.

Great. Go ahead and do it one more time just to be sure. ;)

 

[Truth7t7]

Interesting! You don't like it when you don't receive a straightforward answer? Now you know what it's like to be us when we ask you questions! LOL.

I said I've already told you more than once. If you weren't paying attention when I've told you before, what will make you remember what I say now? I agree with WPM on this as I've told you multiple times before. How long will it take you to forget what I've told you this time?

You deny a future AOD, Great Tribulation, and A Literal Human Man (The Beast)

To deny a future literal human man (The Beast) as seen in Revelation Chapter 13, the (Man Of Sin) seen in 2 Thessalonians 2, this is a great deception, "Scary"!

Those teaching falsely of a future Pre-Trib Rapture or Millennial Kingdom has "No Comparison" to the deception in denying this future literal human man, "No Comparison"!

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

Yes Spiritual Israelite denies the figure seen below will be a future literal human man

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You deny a future AOD, Great Tribulation, and A Literal Human Man (The Beast)

Yawn. You are boring. Come up with something new for once. Say something in a different way for once or something. Goodness, you're putting me to sleep.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Exactly. So, why couldn't the term "thousand" be used that way in Revelation 20 as well. I'm not trying to get you to see that it is that way, but can you acknowledge that it could be used that way there? Some won't even acknowledge that. A few have even tried to argue that since the "thousand years" is referenced six times that somehow means it is literal (huh?).

Yeah well I’m one of those few. I can’t come up with a reason to cram it in a short space 6 times unless it was an attention getting thing with God. It’s notable, not completely ordinary. If I was grading a paper, I would probably say something like…”same phrase repeated 6 times in too short a span, tighten up prose and don’t assume the reader is stupid and didn’t hear you the first time. If reader feels you think him stupid, you've just lost your reader, which is the opposite of what you want!”

Lol.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yawn. You are boring. Come up with something new for once. Say something in a different way for once or something. Goodness, you're putting me to sleep.

Gods words state (Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means) and you and WPM deny (The Man Of Sin) seen below will be revealed to the Church on earth, what does that make Spiritual Israelite and WPM?

Yes Spiritual Israelite and WPM denies the figure seen below will be a future literal human man

Paul's (Man Of Sin), A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yawn. You are boring. Come up with something new for once. Say something in a different way for once or something. Goodness, you're putting me to sleep.

I had to “like” this even though I think you could refrain from calling him boring.
To call him boring is boorish.
But I sort of agree that he does keep repeating the same exact thing over and over again and it makes me eventually begin to skip over someone’s posts when they continue that for too long.
And that’s coming from someone who agrees with him that those will occur literally.

 

[WPM]

I had to “like” this even though I think you could refrain from calling him boring.
To call him boring is boorish.
But I sort of agree that he does keep repeating the same exact thing over and over again and it makes me eventually begin to skip over someone’s posts when they continue that for too long.
And that’s coming from someone who agrees with him that those will occur literally.

I have started to skip his posts. It is all cut-and-paste. It is like interacting with a robot.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Gods words state (Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means) and you and WPM deny (The Man Of Sin) seen below will be revealed to the Church on earth, what does that make Spiritual Israelite and WPM?

It makes us people that disagree with your interpretations of the scriptures that you are referencing. We don't deny scripture, we deny that you know what you're talking about and deny that you are interpreting scripture correctly in this case.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

LOL. Here you are doing the exact thing that I just referred to above! How does the number of times the term is used have anything to do with whether it's being used literally or not?

psh! You’re funny.
I can’t help the way my mind works. Repetition in quick succession over a short space of time makes my mind think someone literally means what they are saying.
As an interesting aside, They say you have to meet a person six times before you remember their name…

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I had to “like” this even though I think you could refrain from calling him boring.

I am absolutely fine with it if you don't like my wording. However, do you know how many times he has said the exact same thing he said there? I think about 20 times. Maybe more. So, yes, I find that to be boring. I won't apologize for that.

To call him boring is boorish.

That's your opinion, but you haven't seen him repeat himself to you over and over and over again like WPM and I have, either. Wait til that happens to you and then let's see if you have a problem with me calling him boring or not. ;)

But I sort of agree that he does keep repeating the same exact thing over and over again and it makes me eventually begin to skip over someone’s posts when they continue that for too long.

Yeah, I'm trying to do that. Trust me. I'm getting there. I don't like putting people on ignore, but maybe that's what it will take in this case.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So, are you trying to tell me that a miracle will make it so that the ten kings referenced in Revelation 17:12 will reign with the beast for only 60 minutes? If so, I don't believe that makes any sense. Why would that happen? If that isn't what you're trying to tell me, then I have no idea of what you're trying to tell me.

Oh. I can repeat it. I see some possible correlation between Babylon falling in one hour and the verse we’re talking about.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

However, do you know how many times he has said the exact same thing he said there? I think about 20 times.

Now when you say 20 times, do you mean that literally or is 20 symbolic of “many, many times?
Sorry, couldn’t resist.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

psh! You’re funny.
I can’t help the way my mind works. Repetition in quick succession over a short space of time makes my mind think someone literally means what they are saying.

This is how you interpret scripture? Hmmm. Again, the beast is referenced over 30 times in the book of Revelation, sometimes multiple times in quick succession, but that doesn't make it a literal beast.

As an interesting aside, They say you have to meet a person six times before you remember their name…

It's at least ten times for me, but anyway....

 

[Truth7t7]

It makes us people that disagree with your interpretations of the scriptures that you are referencing. We don't deny scripture, we deny that you know what you're talking about and deny that you are interpreting scripture correctly in this case.

Yes we disagree, and you and WPM will be marked and continually quoted as denying a future AOD, Great Tribulation, and a Literal Human Man as being Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), John's (The Beast)

Gods words state (Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means) and you and WPM deny (The Man Of Sin) seen below will be revealed to the Church on earth

Yes Spiritual Israelite and WPM denies the figure seen below will be a future literal human man

Paul's (Man Of Sin), A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: