22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

Agreed. That's what discussion on forums is for and this is your thread.

I think it is only fair if people make big speaks that they should be required to explain it biblically. After all, it is a Bible discussion forum.

 

[Timtofly]

I know, right?! I had to. Just yesterday. But it’s okay! I’m looking at verses with midtrib or somewhere thereabouts to see if they all fit.
It was Rev 20 that did it. It specifically says those who refused the mark of the beast are part of the first resurrection. That happens DURING the tribulation. So…I had to say the first resurrection cannot happen before the tribulation begins.
That doesn’t necessarily mean it HAS to occur midtrib and not sometime prior, it just means (unless someone sees something I haven’t) that it cannot be before the start of the tribulation.
And in fact, there is a verse to one of the churches that I’ve always thought was also far prophetic, the one about satan throwing them into prison for 10 days. So for all I know, it will only be 10 really bad days of prison and beheadings…

And so far, I’m seeing tremendous agreement with many other verses, like…where they believed the day had already begun and Paul said antichrist must come first. I mean, he said it as if we would see it. Trying to think of the other ones I saw fit seamlessly but can’t recall them right now. It’s still unsettled and this headache isn’t helping.

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 happens after Armageddon. It happens to those beheaded in the 42 month period prior to Armageddon. These beheaded are not the church. No where does Scripture claim the whole church is beheaded during Satan's AoD. The first resurrection is not a timing issue. The first resurrection is physical. If you lost a loved one any time in the past who went to heaven they were not symbolically beheaded in order to be resurrected in Revelation 20:4. Revelation 20:4 is not for any one who has already passed from death into life. Revelation 20:4 is a physical (first) resurrection, that totally prevents these beheaded humans to not have to even face the second death. Their first birth was physical into the world. Their first death was being physically beheaded. Their first resurrection was getting a permanent incorruptible physical body, that could never die again. That is the first birth, first death, and first resurrection. Since the Cross, the first birth was physical, the first death was physical, but the first resurrection was immediately into a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. The dead in Christ have been rising first, and we alive could not prevent that at any time. We could not prevent Stephen from entering Paradise. Nor could Paul when alive prevent those who have recently died from resurrection. Obviously because they had not even been born yet. But those alive in the 2nd century could not prevent the first resurrection happening to those already physically in Paradise.

If at the GWT after the 1,000 years, some in sheol change their minds and accept the Atonement, they also will receive the first resurrection and escape the second death in the LOF. They are not given a second resurrection prior to having a first resurrection. No where does Scripture call standing at the GWT a second resurrection. That is human imagination playing tricks with first and second. The second resurrection would be after the second death, and would be getting out of the LOF. You cannot be resurrected before having even died. The second death is total separation soul, body, and spirit into the LOF. The second resurrection would come after the second death.

So every one who receives the first resurrection has passed from death unto eternal life. That is why it is called a blessing. Revelation 20:5 just states that those in sheol cannot be granted eternal life for another 1,000 years. The OT redeemed received their first resurrection at the Cross. All since have received their first resurrection every time Jesus calls them out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Those alive at the Second Coming will receive their first resurrection in the air. And they cannot prevent those who have already been resurrected.

 

[Timtofly]

But Paul says that people alive in their literal bodies were already raised with Christ he also says that we reign with Jesus in life now.

Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Both of these verses are direct fulfillments of revelation 20:4. I encourage you to put aside popular views and see what the bible actually says.

Think about this if revelation 20:4 is literal what if someone was shot in the head for not worshiping the beast? Would they not raise back to life because they weren’t beheaded? That’s why literalism makes no sense.

In that case Paul would be raised but not Peter.

What does not make sense is Amil saying Lazarus was not resurrected the first time prior to the Cross, but all are resurrected at one time after all have died, including those consumed by fire in Revelation 20.

All the OT were resurrected at the time of the Cross. That was their last day resurrection. They are not waiting for a future single event resurrection.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay. In past discussions you seemed to be firmly premillennial (and pre-trib? not sure).

Oh. Yes, it’s only been two days or so since I found the verse that crashed it soundly down.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh. Yes, it’s only been two days or so since I found the verse that crashed it soundly down.

Which verse? And it crashed what soundly down exactly? I had mentioned premillennialism and pre-trib in my post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All the OT were resurrected at the time of the Cross. That was their last day resurrection. They are not waiting for a future single event resurrection.

Where is this taught in scripture? Why do you never back up your claims with scripture? Is it just because you know you can't? Do you think your words alone mean anything apart from accompanying scriptural support?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The broken record of, truth, truth, truth, that you despise and don't want to hear, as you "Deny" a future tribulation will exist

I do not despise the truth. I embrace it. But, you often do not share the truth. You are often mistaken in your beliefs. It is a wonder that you are an Amil. Other than having the timing of the thousand years of Revelation 20 correct, you seem to be wrong about almost everything else.

I don't even despise your false beliefs. I just disagree with them. You are a broken record and an immature child. You are incapable of having an adult discussion, which you prove repeatedly by not addressing any points that are made and by just repeating the same things over and over again.

 

[Timtofly]

Hi Stunnedbygrace, that is a very, very good reason to make that conclusion. Now let's see why it is wrong. You in your own words said, that it is PART of the first resurrection. The Church will not be on the earth during the tribulation. The tribulation occurs during the six seals and the great tribulation occurs at the 5th seal. In Revelation 4 and 5 we see the 24 elders in heaven with their crowns and we see kings and priests which is what the Church is as you can see the those promises in Rev 1-3. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people Daniel. That cannot be complete until after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Church will not be on the earth when the seals are opened. Here is the mistake that the pretrib rapture theory makes. It thinks that the coming of Jesus when He sends His angels to gather the elect occurs at the end of the trumpets of wrath or the vials. (these happen in the same timeframe), but that's not true. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 when He sends His angels to gather the elect happens at the 6th seal before wrath. Here's how we know that.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So, the mistake is made that tribulation occurs during wrath. By these verses we know that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

He is the exact same coming Jesus that occurs at 6th seal in Revelation 14. Notice that the coming occurs just before wrath just as we saw in Revleation 6

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So, the next question is who is the harvest for?

I'll be out till this evening but look forward to your response. And there will be a pretribulation rapture.

Jesus does not say after the great tribulation. So the first 4 seals is not the great tribulation. The 5th Seal is the glorification of the church, not a tribulation.

Jesus says after the tribulation of those days. After the first 4 seals, immediately the Second Coming happens, the 5th and 6th Seals. The first 4 Seals are not the whole church age. There is a specific first Seal that is opened.

The great tribulation is the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. The AoD is Satan's 42 months after the 7th Trumpet has sounded and that week is split into 2 parts. It is the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet that is Daniel 9:27. If the week is split in half, Jesus and the 144k go to mount Zion, and leave Jerusalem. That is when Satan sits on the throne, and declares himself God. Deceiving those left that he has gained the victory over Jesus and the 144k. At that point those people need to flee Judaea to get away from Satan's deception and lies. They need to have time to make that decision that is either taking the mark, or chopping their head off.

The church leaves before the Trumpets and Thunders, the GT. The firstfruits of the Millennium leave before Satan's 42 months. Those beheaded leave during Satan's 42 months. All humanity is killed at Armageddon, and no one is left of Adam's dead corruptible flesh at that point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

WPM denies the figure seen below will be a future human man, do you also deny this future human man, please explain?

I've already explained it to you more than once. You don't pay any attention to what anyone tells you because all you can do is just repeat yourself over and over without thinking about what anyone else says and responding to it directly. You've been shown that the beast "was, and is not" as of the time John wrote the book and you are apparently afraid to address how you can reconcile your understanding of the beast with that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What exactly are you not understanding about what I said? Are you familiar with the concept of immortal bodies as Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 15?

You asked me a strange question concerning the body of Jesus as if people exist apart from a body. In my view, eternal life is ionic life: living at a time when the quality of life has been perfected. Not only is death eliminated, but so is evil eliminated, and sin is eliminated, and war and fighting and destruction and pain and suffering and dissolution and decay and ruin are all eliminated. When I say that Jesus was the first to be granted eternal life, I mean to say that he was the first to enter into ionic life.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

In a sense that is completely likely because it actually happened. But, normally, that is extremely unlikely.

I don’t think I’m following your reasoning here. Miracles are always extremely unlikely normally. Normally, it is extremely unlikely for a large body of water to stand up and a path go through it. Normally it is extremely unlikely that a man would bring a heartstopped dead man back to life.

Normally 10 men wouldn’t sign a contract together and it be null an hour later because of a stunningly major catastrophe.

Have I got my point across? Like…everything God ever did, all miracles, of Himself or of Himself through others, were not extremely likely to occur in the natural, nay, they were IMPOSSIBLE in or of the natural…

I always use too many words! Grrr…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You are getting bogged down in semantics here. Do you believe the word "thousand" is used literally in Psalm 50:10 or not? Is it talking about God owning the cattle on literally a thousand hills and not the rest of the hills or not? If not, then why can't the word "thousand" be used similarly in Revelation 20?

Im not bogged down in semantics. Am I…?
No, of course I don’t believe the word thousand is used there as a literal or exact measure. It was used to make a statement, not to give a precise measure. Just as if I said, there’s five million ants in my kitchen right now, I’m not using five million as any sort of exact measure, as most people would understand.

I won a lottery for 5 million dollars would be meant to convey an exact measure, as most people would also understand.

So if I read a verse and see an exact measure is not intended in that verse, why would I assume it must mean that (and especially if God repeats it six times in rapid succession) He can’t then ever use that number AS an exact measure?

I mean, if someone told you I won five million dollars, would you say, psh, one time she told me she had five million ants in her kitchen so I don’t think she meant she won five million dollars?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am here to engage in what Scripture teaches not trade insults. I do not agree with your conclusions.

Ive fallen down the rabbit hole if these things aren’t insults:

You are ignorant and unlearned.

Posting a link is just saying the same things you already said, albeit that fellow said it in a more articulate manner than you did.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I found the rapture video on page 2. So I saw your pastor is post tribulation. It was kind of funny when he said he was post tribulation, he said don't stop video, if you don't believe in a post tribulation rapture, you might learn something anyway. I watched several of the videos. He is really a very good teacher. What surprises me is he has a great eye for detail that most don't have. Learned a detail or two from him as I thought I would. He is missing it on the rapture and the tribulation period though.

Actually, that was my video. The videos on Bible Spy are the ones I created. Were you talking about Bible spy all this time?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your claims are false, as you have been shown several times, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

You disregard the Lord's return in fire, making way for the false teachings that you believe and promote

You deny the very deity and pre-existence of Jesus Christ, as I have been watching your postings, you're not to be take seriously

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Did you think I should be taken seriously before that? hmm, interesting. Well, if you go to Bible spy and look at my videos, you won't find a video where I teach about the deity or pre-existence. I have no interest in the subject and I get along just fine without raising the subject. I am not an advocate against Trinitarianism. I never raise the subject and I don't make videos on the subject. I posted thousands of posts here and never once mentioned anything about it until someone asked me a direct question about. And even then, I hesitated because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if anyone asks me directly, I am not going to lie.

One more thing, how many people do you know who can post hundreds of posts in two days about a subject like this, without cutting and pasting and answering most people directly and thoughtfully? I have studied this thoroughly and I am well versed in the subject. I simply avoid the subject for all the ill will and discomfort it causes. The upshot of all this is that some folks, perhaps everyone will now ignore everything else I ever said. C'est la vie.

 

[Timtofly]

This is another reason why we should reject Premillennialism. Believers are reigning now! This is another example (of many) how Premillennialists reject the tenses in the original Greek, involves the redeemed currently functioning as kings and priests. The Bible depicts God’s people as reigning now - both in life and in death.

Romans 5:17 confirms, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

This tells us that those who experience Christ in this life reign by Christ. The phrase “shall reign” is in the future tense because the reigning follows salvation. But we should not miss that this is expressly and unquestionably speaking about "life."

Ephesians 2:5-6 says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, 'hath quickened us together' (aorist, active, indicative), with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And 'hath raised us up together' (aorist, active, particle), and 'made us sit together' (aorist, active, indicative), in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Believers are now citizens of a heavenly kingdom (Philippians 3:20–21, Hebrews 12:22-23). They are currently seated in heavenly places far above principalities and powers with Christ. They rule and reign with Jesus in life and they rule and reign with Jesus in death. Our seating with Christ is a position of authority, honor, and triumph.

Ephesians 1:3 corroborates this, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 'who hath blessed' (aorist, active, indicative), us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

We are seated in heavenly places because He is! Remember, we are in Him! We are one with Him! We are spiritually united to Him! His life is our life. We are hidden in Him. He is our legal head! The body is interconnected with the head. The New Testament repeatedly states that we are what we are “through Christ” “in Christ” or “by Christ.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifice and intercede for the people. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfil these spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

We are kings now!!! We therefore reign now!!! This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord. This shows that we are now positionally and spiritually “in Christ” and are reigning in delegated authority. This will be finally realized in all its eternal glory physically when we are glorified at Christ’s coming.

The elect of God become kings and priests in salvation when they enter into all the riches of Christ and His glorious power. We become joint-heirs with Him in His current reign and marvelous glory. We become imitators of Him in His humble and contrite earthly ministry. Here again Calvary is given as the transaction that enabled believers to enter into the two spiritual offices described here – kingship and priesthood. Without the cross-work we could never have realized these heavenly privileges.

Which theocracy would that be?

Are those only spiritual consummations at the end?

 

[farouk]

Hi farouk,

I believe as you do. I don`t see where I was talking about those scriptures. Perhaps it was `Truth7t7.`

Marilyn.

Hi @Marilyn C There are I suppose so many aspects to these subjects that what might seem apparent to one person from one perspective in someone's comments might not have been in the intention of the writer at all....I suppose this is inevitable at times...........

 

[farouk]

`ye,` are the people of Israel as there was NO Body of Christ or even knowledge of such.

@Marilyn C Some of the NT dates from before Pentecost............

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@Marilyn C Some of the NT dates from before Pentecost............

hmm…I can’t see that…
It talks about things that happened before Pentecost but….I’m guessing you didn’t mean to say parts of it were written before the day of Pentecost. Did you?

 

[Truth7t7]

I've already explained it to you more than once. You don't pay any attention to what anyone tells you because all you can do is just repeat yourself over and over without thinking about what anyone else says and responding to it directly. You've been shown that the beast "was, and is not" as of the time John wrote the book and you are apparently afraid to address how you can reconcile your understanding of the beast with that.

WPM denies the figure seen below will be a future human man, do you also deny this future human man, a simple yes/no will do?

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.