22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

You didn't answer the question below, I removed the word earth

Do you believe the 144,000 "Servants Of God" are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and sealed by God and "Added" to the Church, would you suggest God has different "Servants" and a different seal for ethnic groups in his Kingdom?

Believe me, I thought I answered your question. My answer is "Yes" and "No."

No, in the following sense:
The 144K are Hebrew people who fear God and love God from the heart. When God seals them (sanctifies them), they don't immediately believe the New Testament Gospel, or take Jesus as their savior. They don't enter the church at that time. The 144K hear the call to come to Jerusalem, and once in Jerusalem, God sends his fire-armies to burn up the country of Israel except for Jerusalem. Joel 2. Those who come to Jerusalem and remain will be considered holy. Isaiah 4:3 Those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Joel 2:31

Yes, in the following sense:
When the Lord returns, his foot will touch down on Mt Olivet. Zechariah 14:4 The survivors located in Jerusalem will come out to see him at the place figuratively called "Azel" (the place of gathering.) Zechariah 14:5. At that moment, these surviving Hebrews will take Jesus as their savior and enter the church.

 

[Truth7t7]

Believe me, I thought I answered your question. My answer is "Yes" and "No."

No, in the following sense:
The 144K are Hebrew people who fear God and love God from the heart. When God seals them (sanctifies them), they don't immediately believe the New Testament Gospel, or take Jesus as their savior. They don't enter the church at that time. The 144K hear the call to come to Jerusalem, and once in Jerusalem, God sends his fire-armies to burn up the country of Israel except for Jerusalem. Joel 2. Those who come to Jerusalem and remain will be considered holy. Isaiah 4:3 Those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Joel 2:31

Yes, in the following sense:
When the Lord returns, his foot will touch down on Mt Olivet. Zechariah 14:4 The survivors located in Jerusalem will come out to see him at the place figuratively called "Azel" (the place of gathering.) Zechariah 14:5. At that moment, these surviving Hebrews will take Jesus as their savior and enter the church.

We disagree, the 144,000 servants of God will be saved, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and added to the Church on earth, they represent the "Remnant" Jew

There won't be a pre-trib rapture as you believe and teach, as you stated the Church will be in heaven when the 144,000 are sealed

The Church will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens as Luke 21:25-28 teaches

We Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 22:4KJV
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:3KJV
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The 144,000 represent the "Remnant Church" in the wilderness during the tribulation, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not one word in the scripture you present deals with the magical 2,000 year gap between Daniels 69th and 70th week that many teach and believe

I said the idea was not without precedent. That's what I said. You referred to some sort of "magical" gap of 2000 years as if it was a preposterous idea so I pointed out that there's precedent for it.

And for me, personally, I'm not certain they don't align, and I'm not certain they have nothing to do with each other. But that's just me.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We disagree, the 144,000 servants of God will be saved, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and added to the Church on earth, they represent the "Remnant" Jew

There won't be a pre-trib rapture as you believe and teach, as you stated the Church will be in heaven when the 144,000 are sealed

The Church will be present on earth to be eyewitnesses of the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens as Luke 21:25-28 teaches

We Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 22:4KJV
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:3KJV
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The 144,000 represent the "Remnant Church" in the wilderness during the tribulation, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

I don't teach a pretrib rapture. Where did you get that from? We are in the tribulation right now.

 

[Keraz]

There’s certainly precedence in that “magical” 2000 year gap you speak of. Jesus stopped reading exactly where He meant to.


61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God;

You have made a serious error. Jesus stopped His quote of Isaiah 61:1-2a, BEFORE - and a day of the vengeance of our God. Luke 4:18-19

That Day, which will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, has not yet happened.
THEN, the rest of Isaiah 61:3-11, will be fulfilled, as all the Christian peoples gather and live in all of the holy land, blessed by the Lord. Ezekiel 34:11-16, +

As for the 2000 year gap from the acclamation of Jesus as King, Matthew 21:1-11, to His glorious Return: IS that gap. Now almost over, in 2022 AD

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You have made a serious error. Jesus stopped His quote of Isaiah 61:1-2a, BEFORE - and a day of the vengeance of our God. Luke 4:18-19

That Day, which will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, has not yet happened.
THEN, the rest of Isaiah 61:3-11, will be fulfilled, as all the Christian peoples gather and live in all of the holy land, blessed by the Lord. Ezekiel 34:11-16, +

As for the 2000 year gap from the acclamation of Jesus as King, Matthew 21:1-11, to His glorious Return: IS that gap. Now almost over, in 2022 AD

And you have made a serious error if you think that I think that day has already happened…

 

[The Light]

We are in the tribulation right now.

Not even the slightest chance. When those seals are opened you would know what tribulation is. Hopefully you will make the rapture that occurs before those seals are opened.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't teach a pretrib rapture. Where did you get that from? We are in the tribulation right now.

You stated the church was in heaven, while the mortal 144,000 were on earth please explain?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ezekiel 43:18-27

Where in Ezekiel 43:18-27 does it say anything about animal sacrifices being performed as a memorial? I see them described as sin offerings, but not as memorials. So, show me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christ is the firstborn, not the first resurrected.

Try to tell that to Paul who taught otherwise.

Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

 

[farouk]

You stated the church was in heaven, while the mortal 144,000 were on earth please explain?

@Truth7t7 I do think the tribulation principle of John 16.33 and the Great Tribulation as a unique period of history are distinct.........

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You need to understand what you are reading.

I do. Thanks for your concern, though. You, on the other hand, clearly have no understanding of what you're reading.

The Lord says immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven. This coming of the Lord is at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God. Will the believers know when the Lord is coming before the day of the gathering from heaven and earth? Yes.

No, the wrath of God will come down on that day as Paul taught in 1 Thess 4:14-5:11, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Thess 2:1-12. The 6th seal refers to the wrath of the Lamb being at hand at that time. That is the same wrath that other scripture says will occur on the day He returns, which will be global in scope (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12, etc.).

Sorry brother. That's just not something that I do. The text determines my doctrine, not the other way around. This is why I believe in two raptures and not one like the pretrib teaches. It is why I know that the tribulation of over before the wrath of God. In other words, tribulation is not wrath. I believe what I believe because of the text.

You believe what you believe because of not properly discerning what type of text you are reading. You think it's all literal, but it clearly is not.

And the fig tree does have two harvests. One will occur when it is like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood and one will occur when it's like the days of Lot where the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.
The subject has changed to the parable of the fig tree. The fig tree has two harvests.

When Jesus compared the days before His coming to the days of Noah He was only comparing them in the sense of how unbelievers will be clueless right up until the day He comes just as they were clueless right up until the day the flood started in Noah's day. He was in no way, shape or form suggesting that believers will be caught up some time before His second coming. If you really want to make that comparison, then why wouldn't you believe that the rapture will occur 7 days before His second coming?

My interpretation of Revelation 20 is to believe exactly what the Word says. The Word says that there is a resurrection after 1000 years and also before that.

What does scripture say the first resurrection was? Christ's resurrection. Do you believe the following for what it says?

Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Revelation 20 does not contradict other scriptures.

No, your interpretation of it does.

You just lack the understanding at this point to see that there is more than one resurrection.

You lack the understanding that other scripture, such as John 5:28-29, teaches that there is a singular time coming when all of the dead will be raised. To say that there will be resurrections a thousand years apart completely contradicts what Jesus said in John 5:28-29.

How many times do I hear that the Word say we will be raised on the last day. Which last day? The last of the fulness of the Gentiles. The last day, the end of the age at the 6th seal. The last day at the end of the trumpets of wrath or the last day after the 1000 years?

Which last day? What kind of question is that? As if there is more than one (no chance). Where does scripture indicate there is more than one last day? This illustrates your problem. You have to invent things like multiple last days (not taught anywhere in scripture) and multiple mass resurrection events (also not taught in scripture) to support your doctrine.

I guess you think that the seals and the trumpets are the same thing. They are not. The six seals are the very things that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24. The four horsemen of the apocalypse, the first four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the great tribulation and the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth. THEN THE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. So the trumpets are not the seals. The seventh seal has to open before the trumpets can begin. Read what it says.

Not exactly the same, but they happen parallel in time. Not recognizing that there are parallels in the book of Revelation results in nonsense. The wrath of the Lamb is at hand already at the sixth seal, but we're supposed to believe that all the trumpets and then all the vials/bowls happen after that? That makes no sense.

I believe that the Messiah is cut off after the 69th week just as the Word says. We know it's a few days after.

No, we don't know that. You THINK that.

You may not understand that because there is so much false teaching and fabrication going on that you may think that the 70th week is over. But that's impossible according to the Word.

No, it is not. You are the one teaching falsehood here.

 

[farouk]

Yes, which I think you would know.

@Marilyn C I think the Matthew 24 and Luke 21 passages are talking about tribulation saints rather than the church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure I accept what this scripture says.


That's part of it.

Exactly


2 Peter 3
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

You say it is the second coming that we are looking for. That's part of it. The word says Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat

The promise is contained in the Day of the Lord, not just the second coming. I'll explain below.

Ok. Let's read what it says. Peter does not indicate that we look forward to the new heavens and new earth in fulfillment of the promise of His second coming. He says we are Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

Let's get to the meat of this. There is a difference between the second coming and the day of the Lord. You skipped the details that told what you needed to know. Here.

2 Peter 3
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

There. Read what it says. Be not ignorant of this one thing. That one day is with Lord as a 1000 years and a thousand years as one day. So the day of the Lord is 1000 years long. Oh no, you're not going to want to believe that, are you?

Of course I believe that. Do you have to be an immature child like this and tell me I'm not going to want to believe what scripture says even though I believe every word of scripture? What I don't believe is that you are interpreting scripture correctly. And you know that. So, don't turn it into me not wanting to believe scripture.

Lets prove it. The problem is not me proving it. I can do that easy enough.

So, why are you so long winded then?

The problem is getting you to accept the written Word of God.

I do accept it. I don't accept your interpretation of it. Big difference.

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The following verses show that the

Rev 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


So we see a thousand year period AFTER the second coming. THEN we see the new heavens and the new earth which is AFTER the 1000 years.

Rev 21
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So Peter telling you that a day is as a thousand year and a thousand years as a day when the heavens and earth are burnt up is confirmed by the Revelation of John.

A couple things to point out here. First, your view doesn't allow for Satan's little season to occur. You have the new heavens and new earth being burned up at the end of the thousand years, but you're apparently forgetting that Satan's little season still has to occur after the thousand years.

Another thing is that 2 Peter 3:8 has absolutely nothing to do with the duration of the day of the Lord or with Revelation 20. You act as if Peter said a day IS a thousand years to the Lord, but it says a day is LIKE a thousand years to the Lord. So, he was not saying that one day and a thousand years are exactly the same thing to the Lord. He was saying that there is no difference between a day and a thousand years from the Lord's perspective. And the reason for that should be obvious. He created time and exists outside of the realm of time. So, a day is LIKE a thousand years, ten thousand years, a million years, or any amount of time to the Lord because time has no affect on Him whatsoever.

 

[RLT63]

Where in Ezekiel 43:18-27 does it say anything about animal sacrifices being performed as a memorial? I see them described as sin offerings, but not as memorials. So, show me.

The sin offerings in the Old Testament were symbolic of the sacrifice Jesus would make. The sin offerings in the future will be symbolic of the sacrifice Jesus made.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because Christ comes in an hour we think not!]

You said that is a reason to remain pre-trib. Why? I am an Amillennialist and I too believe that we don't know when He is coming (Matt 24:36, Matt 24:40-42, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Matt 25:13).

And… How can we return with Christ to reign a thousand years if we are not raptured away before that?

For one thing, it is the souls of the dead in Christ that will return with Christ when He comes. Also, He is reigning now (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-22, Col 1:13-14, Rev 1:5-6).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah…I could never see that either. Time, times and half a time seems too carefully exact for me to accept that it means some unspecified amount of time. I would rather think God would not be exact if He didn’t intend for us to look carefully at it.

If it's meant to be exact then why doesn't it just say 3 and a half years or something similar? The fact that it says a time, times and half a time suggests that it's not being literal to me. If that's literal then I find that to be a strange way of being literal.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20:9 They marched over the Land and laid siege to the camp of God's people, in the city He loves........

You are wrong and have been proved wrong many times.

You haven't proven him wrong even once. Only in your own mind.

But like any recidivist opposer of the truth, you just keep on hammering and abusing everyone who refutes you.
Your bad attitude and your unbiblical beliefs condemn you.

If someone disagrees with you then they have a bad attitude. What do you make of your own bad attitude and rudeness towards others? It's okay if you do that?

 

[Truth7t7]

I said the idea was not without precedent. That's what I said. You referred to some sort of "magical" gap of 2000 years as if it was a preposterous idea so I pointed out that there's precedent for it.

And for me, personally, I'm not certain they don't align, and I'm not certain they have nothing to do with each other. But that's just me.

We disagree, there's no precedent for the magical 2,000 year gap, it's a man made fairy tale found no place in scripture

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The sin offerings in the Old Testament were symbolic of the sacrifice Jesus would make. The sin offerings in the future will be symbolic of the sacrifice Jesus made.

What does scripture teach that sin offerings would be made in the future as symbolism of the sacrifice Jesus made? I can find scripture which teaches that the old covenant animal sacrifices foreshadowed Christ's sacrifice (Hebrews 10:1), but nothing about future animal sacrifices being done as a memorial of His sacrifice. It seems to me that you're making this up. Unless you can show me scripture to back up your belief? Ezekiel 43:18-27 wasn't it. It says nothing about the sacrifices being done as a memorial. So, do you have anything else? You'd think the New Testament would have something to say about that if it was true. Anything there that you can point to that backs up your claim?