22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[jeffweeder]

Once again, I see both. I absolutely do know I have a new life. That is a current reality. Almost daily (at least weekly) now my mind is renewed about something and I just start thinking differently about it. Over a year ago, He quite suddenly calmed my passions and they no longer rule over me mercilessly.
But I also see we will be raised again and given a new body.
So I see both, which you seem to think is impossible. I just don’t understand the rigidness that would insist there’s no literal fulfillment of stuff but only spiritual fulfillment. It’s just not so.

Hi .
Jn 5 speaks about both.

The Spiritual= Now is
Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

John repeats this in Rev 20..,
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years

Without being bodily resurrected we have confidence that we will not come under the judgment. Those who hear and believe are covered and cleansed forever by his own blood, and the second death hath no power at all over us. His grace is sufficient for us Amen.

The bodily= at the judgment.
26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

 

[WPM]

Yeah I don’t know about amils. I’m telling you what one man has said and I have a pretty firm grasp of what HE is saying.
And, sorry, I’m not reading the rest of that. I gave it a go but had to stop.

How many resurrection days are there? How many judgment days are there?

 

[The Light]

okay, stop right here. Show me the verses that you think say the church will not be present for any part of the tribulation.

And by the way, thanks for wanting to help me.

Here are 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns.

Revelation 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Reward crowns are given after Jesus comes.
Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Here are the kings and priests of the Church in heaven before the seals are opened. They come out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation. The 1st 5 seals are the tribulation period with the 6th seal being the coming of Jesus BEFORE wrath.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Here is John telling the 7 seven churches that we are kings and priests unto God.
Revelation 1
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Marty fox]

I think you are misinterpreting what he is saying. Amils believe in the final physical literal resurrection when Jesus comes. But they see it as the end. They see the rescue of the saints and the destruction of the wicked as occurring on the same climactic day.

Thanks and yes amen

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How many resurrection days are there? How many judgment days are there?

There are two resurrections. One happens at some point before or at the 1000 years. The second one happens after the 1000 years.

Im honestly not sure about the judgements. I know we will all answer for and be judged on what we did. I guess I have the assumption that there are two judgements, one at each resurrection.

 

[Marty fox]

mmm…no, he’s actually saying Rev 20:4 has already been literally fulfilled. Or at the very least, he’s saying it is never literally fulfilled, only spiritually. Not sure what he thinks the beheadings really mean, too afraid to ask!
I can see the spiritual aspects of some things. But he can’t see any literal aspects of those things. So I see both, he only sees one.

What I’m saying is actually no what Paul was saying is that revelation 20:4 is a current reality spiritually while alive on earth.

Paul not me says that while on earth or in heaven we are raised spiritually, reigning and seated with Christ which is all mentioned in revelation 20:4

What John in revelation is saying is that (he is addressing the ones killed by the beast) are still living raised, seated with and reigning with Christ spiritually even though they were physically killed they haven’t changed spiritually.

Yes there will be a literal bodily resurrection at the end of our world.

 

[WPM]

Reward crowns are given after Jesus comes.
Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Here are the kings and priests of the Church in heaven before the seals are opened. They come out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation. The 1st 5 seals are the tribulation period with the 6th seal being the coming of Jesus BEFORE wrath.

This is another reason why we should reject Premillennialism. Believers are reigning now! This is another example (of many) how Premillennialists reject the tenses in the original Greek, involves the redeemed currently functioning as kings and priests. The Bible depicts God’s people as reigning now - both in life and in death.

Romans 5:17 confirms, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

This tells us that those who experience Christ in this life reign by Christ. The phrase “shall reign” is in the future tense because the reigning follows salvation. But we should not miss that this is expressly and unquestionably speaking about "life."

Ephesians 2:5-6 says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, 'hath quickened us together' (aorist, active, indicative), with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And 'hath raised us up together' (aorist, active, particle), and 'made us sit together' (aorist, active, indicative), in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Believers are now citizens of a heavenly kingdom (Philippians 3:20–21, Hebrews 12:22-23). They are currently seated in heavenly places far above principalities and powers with Christ. They rule and reign with Jesus in life and they rule and reign with Jesus in death. Our seating with Christ is a position of authority, honor, and triumph.

Ephesians 1:3 corroborates this, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 'who hath blessed' (aorist, active, indicative), us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

We are seated in heavenly places because He is! Remember, we are in Him! We are one with Him! We are spiritually united to Him! His life is our life. We are hidden in Him. He is our legal head! The body is interconnected with the head. The New Testament repeatedly states that we are what we are “through Christ” “in Christ” or “by Christ.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifice and intercede for the people. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfil these spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

We are kings now!!! We therefore reign now!!! This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord. This shows that we are now positionally and spiritually “in Christ” and are reigning in delegated authority. This will be finally realized in all its eternal glory physically when we are glorified at Christ’s coming.

The elect of God become kings and priests in salvation when they enter into all the riches of Christ and His glorious power. We become joint-heirs with Him in His current reign and marvelous glory. We become imitators of Him in His humble and contrite earthly ministry. Here again Calvary is given as the transaction that enabled believers to enter into the two spiritual offices described here – kingship and priesthood. Without the cross-work we could never have realized these heavenly privileges.

 

[WPM]

Here are 24 elders in heaven with reward crowns.

Revelation 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Reward crowns are given after Jesus comes.
Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Here are the kings and priests of the Church in heaven before the seals are opened. They come out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation. The 1st 5 seals are the tribulation period with the 6th seal being the coming of Jesus BEFORE wrath.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Here is John telling the 7 seven churches that we are kings and priests unto God.
Revelation 1
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Through His glorious victory, we are qualified to sit with Him in heavenly places. Of course, that is our spiritual standing. We should never forget, there is a big difference between our standing and our state. Upon death, the dead in Christ know this heavenly reality as a state. They have overcome and now reign "in Christ." God also revealed Christ’s current reign to His servant John when He promised the obedient Laodiceans of Asia Minor in. Jesus confirms in Revelation 3:21: “To him that overcometh (present active particle) will I grant (future indicative active) to sit (aorist, active infinitive), with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am (aorist active indicative) set down with my Father in his throne.”

Our position and authority in Christ is shown to be an accomplished fact. It has already happened. That position was attained for us through Jesus Christ. God enthroned us with Jesus in the heavenly realms when we were saved. Our position as believers is therefore one of joint-seating with Christ in heavenly places.

From this passage we explicitly see: Christ’s current heavenly reign over His enemies is inextricably linked to the decisive victory He secured this through His life, death and glorious resurrection. Our Savior had to overcome. He had to defeat every enemy of righteousness. He had to overcome that which had overcome man - namely sin, Satan, hell and the grave. Christ’s present reign is therefore (1) to perfectly fulfill Scripture, and (2) to enforce the complete victory that was wrought. The resurrection is central to Christ’s current victorious reign. Through this and His current glorious heavenly reign, He has enabled those that die in Christ to reign with Him in glory.

Believers now function in all the benefits, blessings and authority that comes with being "in Christ." Christians literally and spiritually righteously reign with Jesus upon high (whether in spirit or in reality). They exercise divine power over the dark spiritual realm. The dead in Christ do not suddenly lose their authority upon death. No, rather, their position is enhanced as they rise to rule with Jesus. Basically, because He reigns we reign!

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future article) on the earth” (v. 9).

There is little doubt this scene is current and relates to a time-period preceding the second coming of the Lord. Moreover, no reasonable Bible student would surely deny that the reading relates to anything other than the redeemed situated in heaven. Here, the disembodied spirits of the elect in heaven are seen reigning as kings and priests now. Significantly, and like Revelation 20:4, the dead in Christ in heaven are described (in relation to their kingship and priesthood) as “hast made” – proving this is speaking of the current fulfillment of the same. The aorist active indicative demonstrates that this is ongoing in this intra-Advent period.

Revelation 20:4-5 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given (aorist active indicative) unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (aorist active indicative) and reigned (aorist active indicative) with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

This is talking about the intermediate state currently. The dead in Christ are shown to be no longer in Abraham’s bosom since the first resurrection. They are seen in heaven reigning with Christ. Because Christ conquered we conquer, because He reigns we now reign. Notably, as Satan was banished from heaven, the elect were welcomed.

The reigning saints evidently continue to exist in the presence of God. Unbelievers on the other hand are separated from God during this current age. The wicked are cut off from God. Moreover, verse 4 depicts a picture of the righteous dead currently reigning with Christ in the heavenly abode in their disembodied state, whereas the wicked (who are identified as “the rest”) are simply described as “lived not.”

 

[WPM]

There are two resurrections. One happens at some point before or at the 1000 years. The second one happens after the 1000 years.

Im honestly not sure about the judgements. I know we will all answer for and be judged on what we did. I guess I have the assumption that there are two judgements, one at each resurrection.

2 Timothy 4:1-8 informs us when this glorious (all-inclusive) number will actually stand to account before the throne of God, saying, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom … there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”

Adam’s race – in total – are therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) ‘epifaneian’ (or) appearing and his kingdom.” This is an all-inclusive general judgment. The subjects involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.

It is at this great concluding event that both the righteous and the wicked will be raised to face the great final judgment. Notwithstanding, there are two aspects to the one all-consummating resurrection day. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.

The righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice - Christ's. Christ’s description of the resurrection depicts a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There is one physical resurrection day in which there are two types of raising, (1) unto life, (2) unto damnation. Acts 24:15 says, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead (singular), both of the just and unjust.”

This verse speaks of a singular “resurrection of the dead” not multiple resurrections (plural) of the dead as the Premillennialist would try and intimate. The fact that Paul differentiates between the wicked and the righteous in no way proves that these are two separate resurrections coming at the end of two separate ages split by 1,000 years+ of history (filled with all the produce of the curse – sin, death and corruption). No, it simply demonstrates that there are two types of resurrection in the one final resurrection of the dead at the end. In fact, for Premils to insist on their concept is to force something into the passage that doesn’t truly exist. Scripture constantly distinguishes between the wicked and the righteous even though they are found participating in the same event at the same time. Why would anyone think it strange that the Holy Spirit would identify the two different parties that take part in the general “resurrection of the dead”? After all, it is a normal biblical procedure to distinguish between these two conflicting camps. Although to suggest that the identifying of these two distinct parties indicates two separate events at two separate times is illogical.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise (anistemi) in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up (egeiro) in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ.

This is further impressed in the parallel portion in Luke 11:31, only with an additional example, saying, “The queen of the south shall rise up (egeiro) in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall rise up (anistemi ) in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.”

Here, the two main words used throughout the New Testament for resurrection are applied to the general resurrection that occurs on Judgment Day when the Old Testament time saints and wicked join the New Testament saints and wicked at the judgment. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day. There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.” The Greek word meta (3326) is described in Strong’s concordance as “a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; ‘amid’.”

 

[jeffweeder]

There are two resurrections. One happens at some point before or at the 1000 years. The second one happens after the 1000 years.

Im honestly not sure about the judgements. I know we will all answer for and be judged on what we did. I guess I have the assumption that there are two judgements, one at each resurrection.

How many resurrections did Jesus mention?
How many judgments did he make us aware of.?

 

[rockytopva]

So, who or what is antichrist and when does he appear?

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. - Revelation 13

When someone does something to the effect of making bitcoin global currency requiring something scannable on your skin to access your finances… Look up! For your redemption draweth nigh!

 

[WPM]

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. - Revelation 13

When someone does something to the effect of making bitcoin global currency requiring something scannable on your skin to access your finances… Look up! For your redemption draweth nigh!

Do you think it is a human?

 

[rockytopva]

Do you think it is a human?

Good question! Thanks for asking! As technology advances we will find out!

 

[rockytopva]

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. - Revelation 13

When someone does something to the effect of making bitcoin global currency requiring something scannable on your skin to access your finances… Look up! For your redemption draweth nigh!

Will bitcoin be the global currency?

 

[rockytopva]

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. - Revelation 13

When someone does something to the effect of making bitcoin global currency requiring something scannable on your skin to access your finances… Look up! For your redemption draweth nigh!

Bitcoin ATMs Increase in Number in Moscow, Russia – Bitcoin News - Wow!

 

[The Light]

There is no 7 year tribulation anywhere in the bible. If Revelation is literal then a 7 year tribulation would be mentioned wouldn’t it?

But there is a 70th week of Daniel that is determined upon the people of Daniel. The Church will already be in heaven when the tribulation takes place.

It can’t be the 12 tribes in the 144000 it’s not even the 12 tribes the tribe of Dan is missing.

Ok. I had to set up several large conference calls to discuss this. I made video and answered all the questions. Went to tiktok and facebook and it went viral. Your comment started a huge worldwide discussion. Now everyone is demanding that I get a conclusion. So let me get this straight. Are you trying to me that there were no Three Stooges after Curly was replaced?

 

[The Light]

So when John saw Jesus as the slain man was that too specific?

Just as John heard of the lion of the tribe of Judah he turned and saw the slain lamb John heard of the 144000 he then saw the great multitude of ever tribe land nation. The 144 is symbolic for the 12 tribes times the 12 deciples and the thousand means many.

Again it’s not the 12 tribes mentioned or even that’s it’s men.

Symbolic? The 144,000 are symbolic of twelve thousand from each tribe just as it says. No need to try to make any guesses.

 

[Truth7t7]

Because the ones pointed out in that verse died physically but even though they died they are still alive spiritually.

I have shown scripture that Paul states that the raising and reigning in revelation chapter 20 is a current reality and here is one more

Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

This once again is a fulfilment of revelation 20:4.

I can’t believe that Christians would deny Paul and that the reigning the raising to life and seating up with Jesus isn’t a current reality for us living on earth today when three times Paul teaches that it was a current reality when he used the term “us”.

Marty do you believe in a future bodily resurrection of the believer?

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty do you believe in a future bodily resurrection of the believer?

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yes of course I do and I did post that earlier today

 

[Marty fox]

Symbolic? The 144,000 are symbolic of twelve thousand from each tribe just as it says. No need to try to make any guesses.

Well it’s not each tribe the tribe of Dan is missing and Jesus isn’t a literal slain lamb or lion either