22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 20:9 They marched over the Land and laid siege to the camp of God's people, in the city He loves........

You are wrong and have been proved wrong many times. But like any recidivist opposer of the truth, you just keep on hammering and abusing everyone who refutes you.
Your bad attitude and your unbiblical beliefs condemn you.

Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% Spiritual Realm, no Kingdom on earth or mortal humans are seen and you know it

Revelation 20:7-9 Satan is loosed into the earthly realm, after the 1,000 years expire

Where is your Millennial Kingdom on this earth with mortal humans seen in Revelation 20:1-6 representing the 1,000 years, it "Isn't"!

A Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a man made fairy tale found no place in scripture

Revelation 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Where is the 1,000 year literal earthly kingdom seen above with mortal humans present "Before" the 1,000 years expires, it isnt

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Think symbolic Sis when reading Revelation, otherwise you are doomed into becoming a premil pillar of wood.

What do you mean? The angel TOLD him what the thing he’d seen meant. “The ten horns are ten kings.” I might think about that a little bit or alter it a little bit, like…think it could possibly be “world leaders” or “heads of countries” rather than men with literal titles of “king” but I sure wouldn’t try to abstract what the angel said or say to myself, I think when the angel said ten of them he really meant “an unknown number.” If there was something to suggest I should maybe do that in a certain place, it would be a different thing, like…if someone says, I saw ten thousands of angels, I might think that’s not to be taken as exactly, but I would still think it was actual angels he saw. I wouldn’t have any reason to think it was something completely different than angels.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

First remember that the saints are sealed and protected from the wrath of God in revelation 7 so they are still there. Revelation 7 also shows that the saints are killed in the great tribulation so they are there too thus the wrath of God and the great tribulation are different so no pretrib.

Im not sure what you’re trying to say here. I think that it’s all (the whole 7 years) tribulation/very trying times for the world. Yes, the first part is satans wrath and the second part is Gods wrath, but it’s all a trying time/tribulation for the world. And I think the 144,000 means an actual 144,00 and I think they are actual Israelites from the actual tribes.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The answer to your question is that the first resurrection is spiritual not physical while on earth. Revelation 20:4 is showing us that even though they died physically they are still spiritually alive in heaven.

It sounds like a literal resurrection, with new bodies to me.
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
I do understand or get a whiff of the thought that the new birth is spiritual, not literal, but I don’t negate literal, bodily resurrection either. The above verses sound quite literal to me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It is the destination - going to heaven, that is not mentioned by Paul and is added by the 'rapture to heaven' believers.

Yes, it does not specifically say “caught up to heaven.” It says caught up in the clouds “to meet the Lord in the air and so we will be with the Lord forever.” It doesn’t really even enter my mind to argue over whether He then “takes us to heaven” or if we hang around in the air with Him. It just isn’t a point of any contention with me. If Jesus wants me to hang around with Him in the air or He takes me to where He is in heaven, all that would matter to me is that I’m with Him. That I meet Him and am with Him.

I’ve had to let go of pretrib and begin to alter some thoughts but I still believe in the first and second resurrections, a new, glorified body, a thousand years, etc. I’ve had to do more of an altering in my thoughts as to the timing rather than a complete gutting of His promises.

 

[Christian Gedge]

What do you mean?

We were talking about symbolic calendar times and I referred to the “one hour” that the kings reigned. (not the kings themselves) So, what I mean is this: A “time, times and half a time” represents a short period of time. “One hour” represents an even shorter period of time. The times in the book of Revelation are best interpreted symbolicly

 

[rockytopva]

Rapture is not in the bible... But caught up is!

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

Now... I can imagine folk getting ready as this was going to happen in their time...

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition... - 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4

Rapture Prerequisites...

1. Great Falling Away
2. Revealing of the Anti-Christ... Who...

Causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. - Revelation 13:16-17

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Rapture Prerequisites...

1. Great Falling Away

Of course, another interpretation of our "departure" is not
"away from the faith" But: "away from the earth, 'caught up'"
According to Rightly Divided Scriptures, Within God's Context
Of His Mystery:

God's Great Grace Departure

With no prerequisites, Amen?

Grace, Peace, JOY, And Comfort!...

 

[The Light]

I’ve had to let go of pretrib and begin to alter some thoughts but I still believe in the first and second resurrections, a new, glorified body, a thousand years, etc. I’ve had to do more of an altering in my thoughts as to the timing rather than a complete gutting of His promises.

Why in the world would you possibly let go of pretrib?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Why in the world would you possibly let go of pretrib?

I know, right?! I had to. Just yesterday. But it’s okay! I’m looking at verses with midtrib or somewhere thereabouts to see if they all fit.
It was Rev 20 that did it. It specifically says those who refused the mark of the beast are part of the first resurrection. That happens DURING the tribulation. So…I had to say the first resurrection cannot happen before the tribulation begins.
That doesn’t necessarily mean it HAS to occur midtrib and not sometime prior, it just means (unless someone sees something I haven’t) that it cannot be before the start of the tribulation.
And in fact, there is a verse to one of the churches that I’ve always thought was also far prophetic, the one about satan throwing them into prison for 10 days. So for all I know, it will only be 10 really bad days of prison and beheadings…

And so far, I’m seeing tremendous agreement with many other verses, like…where they believed the day had already begun and Paul said antichrist must come first. I mean, he said it as if we would see it. Trying to think of the other ones I saw fit seamlessly but can’t recall them right now. It’s still unsettled and this headache isn’t helping.

 

[Marty fox]

It sounds like a literal resurrection, with new bodies to me.
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
I do understand or get a whiff of the thought that the new birth is spiritual, not literal, but I don’t negate literal, bodily resurrection either. The above verses sound quite literal to me.

But Paul says that people alive in their literal bodies were already raised with Christ he also says that we reign with Jesus in life now.

Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Both of these verses are direct fulfillments of revelation 20:4. I encourage you to put aside popular views and see what the bible actually says.

Think about this if revelation 20:4 is literal what if someone was shot in the head for not worshiping the beast? Would they not raise back to life because they weren’t beheaded? That’s why literalism makes no sense.

In that case Paul would be raised but not Peter.

 

[Marty fox]

Im not sure what you’re trying to say here. I think that it’s all (the whole 7 years) tribulation/very trying times for the world. Yes, the first part is satans wrath and the second part is Gods wrath, but it’s all a trying time/tribulation for the world. And I think the 144,000 means an actual 144,00 and I think they are actual Israelites from the actual tribes.

There is no 7 year tribulation anywhere in the bible. If Revelation is literal then a 7 year tribulation would be mentioned wouldn’t it?

It can’t be the 12 tribes in the 144000 it’s not even the 12 tribes the tribe of Dan is missing.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But Paul says that people alive in their literal bodies were already raised with Christ

I do get the spirit of the words and I do get that we were made alive when we received the down payment of the Spirit. But I do also believe we will be given new bodies.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ah, okay…amil means post trib, didnt know that.
At a glance, I can only see it’s possibility if it was also at least midtrib or before.
So…I can’t figure out why it’s called post trib because I assumed post trib meant one believed all had to live through both satans wrath AND the wrath of God.

You are right. Amil doesn't mean post-trib. I'm post-trib and pre-mil.
If satan's wrath = trib, then we are in the trib now.
God's wrath /= trib.

 

[Marty fox]

I do get the spirit of the words and I do get that we were made alive when we received the down payment of the Spirit. But I do also believe we will be given new bodies.

I believe that too but at the end of our world just like revelation 20 says.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It can’t be the 12 tribes in the 144000 it’s not even the 12 tribes the tribe of Dan is missing.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

This is too utterly specific for me to go messing with it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I believe that too but at the end of our world just like revelation 20 says.

mmm…the first resurrection spoken of in Rev 20 seems to me to speak of actual bodies - “came to life again.”
Then it says, the rest of dead didn’t come to life again until after a thousand years.

If it only had a spiritual meaning and not a literal meaning, they wouldn’t be called dead in the first place. It’s their bodies that died.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But Paul says that people alive in their literal bodies were already raised with Christ he also says that we reign with Jesus in life now.

Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Both of these verses are direct fulfillments of revelation 20:4. I encourage you to put aside popular views and see what the bible actually says.

Think about this if revelation 20:4 is literal what if someone was shot in the head for not worshiping the beast? Would they not raise back to life because they weren’t beheaded? That’s why literalism makes no sense.

In that case Paul would be raised but not Peter.

Ah…I can’t. My brain does not work as yours does. I don’t see it as all having to be only spiritual meaning or all only literal meaning or all completely symbolic.I just don’t see it that way. In fact, what I see is that prophecy moves forward and backward in time and speaks of literally, then speaks spiritually. And we aren’t given any heads up when it happens. Like…we will be reading about a literal human king and then suddenly a non literal/spirit being is being spoken of.

 

[The Light]

I know, right?! I had to. Just yesterday. But it’s okay! I’m looking at verses with midtrib or somewhere thereabouts to see if they all fit.
It was Rev 20 that did it. It specifically says those who refused the mark of the beast are part of the first resurrection. That happens DURING the tribulation. So…I had to say the first resurrection cannot happen before the tribulation begins.
That doesn’t necessarily mean it HAS to occur midtrib and not sometime prior, it just means (unless someone sees something I haven’t) that it cannot be before the start of the tribulation.
And in fact, there is a verse to one of the churches that I’ve always thought was also far prophetic, the one about satan throwing them into prison for 10 days. So for all I know, it will only be 10 really bad days of prison and beheadings…

And so far, I’m seeing tremendous agreement with many other verses, like…where they believed the day had already begun and Paul said antichrist must come first. I mean, he said it as if we would see it. Trying to think of the other ones I saw fit seamlessly but can’t recall them right now. It’s still unsettled and this headache isn’t helping.

Hi Stunnedbygrace, that is a very, very good reason to make that conclusion. Now let's see why it is wrong. You in your own words said, that it is PART of the first resurrection. The Church will not be on the earth during the tribulation. The tribulation occurs during the six seals and the great tribulation occurs at the 5th seal. In Revelation 4 and 5 we see the 24 elders in heaven with their crowns and we see kings and priests which is what the Church is as you can see the those promises in Rev 1-3. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people Daniel. That cannot be complete until after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Church will not be on the earth when the seals are opened. Here is the mistake that the pretrib rapture theory makes. It thinks that the coming of Jesus when He sends His angels to gather the elect occurs at the end of the trumpets of wrath or the vials. (these happen in the same timeframe), but that's not true. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 when He sends His angels to gather the elect happens at the 6th seal before wrath. Here's how we know that.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So, the mistake is made that tribulation occurs during wrath. By these verses we know that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

He is the exact same coming Jesus that occurs at 6th seal in Revelation 14. Notice that the coming occurs just before wrath just as we saw in Revleation 6

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So, the next question is who is the harvest for?

I'll be out till this evening but look forward to your response. And there will be a pretribulation rapture.

 

[Marty fox]

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

This is too utterly specific for me to go messing with it.

So when John saw Jesus as the slain man was that too specific?

Just as John heard of the lion of the tribe of Judah he turned and saw the slain lamb John heard of the 144000 he then saw the great multitude of ever tribe land nation. The 144 is symbolic for the 12 tribes times the 12 deciples and the thousand means many.

Again it’s not the 12 tribes mentioned or even that’s it’s men.

I have to leave now I will get back to these.