22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. What would my parents say if upon giving me a brand new car for an inheritance, I took a big, lead pipe and smashed it to bits? What would that say about me as a person? Jesus would not destroy what his father gave him as an inheritance.

You're thinking about this in completely the wrong way. It's not the type of inheritance that you're thinking of. What it's saying is that He will inherit the right to do as He pleases with those who have rejected Him. And it shows what He will do is destroy them. And why wouldn't He? They will have already had plenty of opportunities to repent and they refused to do so. What has God done in the past in that case? He has destroyed entire cities like Sodom and Gomorrah and even the entire world in Noah's day. This will be no different when Jesus returns. It will be too late for anyone to repent at that point. He will destroy them all just as Jesus Himself said here:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It seems you are ignoring facts. The 144,000 are redeemd FROM the earth. They are first fruits, which means that they are the wave offering before the throne. I'm always puzzled when obvious facts are denied. And that's a fact. I never can comprehend why obvious facts are denied.

What you suppose is meant by "earth"? Because the Greek word can also mean "land".

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yeah, let's reject the constant and clear teaching of the prophets, Christ and the NT and default to your "common sense." I don't think so! Why do you avoid the scriptural text and all the arguments presented so much? You obviously know that it exposes your "common sense." Your ongoing avoidance is testimony to the fact you have no rebuttal.

I am not avoiding them. If I wanted to avoid them I would waste my time here in this thread. Why do you fall for Satan's trap when he tempts you to take this line of argument. Don't fall for it.

Are you learning from other's? I am. I am now firmly convinced that 2 Peter 3 is focused on the Eschaton. I wasn't sure about that before.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No contradictions. That is your position. That is why you refuse to address all the rebuttals that forbid what you have been taught. The lurker can check back on this thread and see who addresses each argument and who avoids every argument. Avoidance is your MO.

Again, don't fall for this trap.

 

[WPM]

The Lord teaches three distinct events in Luke 17, what I call "three episodes." Episode one refers to the Roman/Jewish wars of 70AD; Episode two refers to the rapture of the church; and Episode three refers to the Hebrew gathering in Jerusalem. None of these three refer to the Eschaton. We analyze each of these distinct events based on four different criteria: 1) the situation, 2) Prudent action to take, 3) Cautionary Advice, and 4) Conditions.

EPISODE 1 -- Escape from Jerusalem
Situation:
Therefore, when you see the Abomination of Desolation
Prudent action:
1. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
2. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Cautionary Advice:
Pray that your flight will not be in the winter or on a Sabbath.

Conditions:
The ability to act at one's own discretion
The AOD is the alarm/sign that one should leave.
One is to leave in haste.
One has the time (now) to pray for better circumstances
Flee Judea and head for the mountains.

EPISODE 2 -- Gathering to Jesus
Situation:
The Day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Prudent action:
Nothing other than being alert.
Cautionary Advice:
Be on the alert at all times
Conditions:
Involuntary removal
No conditions or state of affairs exist that requires quick or prompt action.

EPISODE 3 -- Gathering to Jerusalem
Situation:
The day that the Son of man is revealed.
Prudent action:
1. On that day the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to get them out.
2. and likewise, the one who is in the field must not turn back.
Cautionary Advice:
Remember lot's wife
Whoever seeks his own life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Conditions:
The ability to act at one's own discretion.
One is required to weigh the relative value of things against one's own existence.
Those who are not willing to abandon things will perish.

Each of these events are distinctive and different events, based on the situation, the prudent action one must take, the cautionary advice given by Jesus, and the conditions under which one must take action, if at all.

Jesus advises some people to leave Judea and head for the mountains. This is not appropriate advice for those who experience the Eschaton. Jesus advises others to leave home with haste. This advice is also not appropriate for those who experience the Eschaton. During that time, it won't matter where you live or where you are. Leaving home quickly or leaving Jerusalem quickly won't help anyone escape the end of the world.

WPM you have target lock, meaning, you are so focused on the Eschaton that you see it everywhere you look. Does the Bible teach concerning the Eschaton? Yes, but not as often as you might think.

I think you are convinced if you state something then it is a fact. Where your doctrine falls apart is the fact that it cannot be supported by the sacred text. You have invented C 3 to support your faulty teaching. Scriptures only teaches 1 + 2 above. EPISODE 3 is what you impose on Scripture.

Q. Why must we “remember Lot's wife”? What befell her?

She got caught in the escape out of Sodom because her heart was still there. Despite being fully aware of the impending destruction, Lot's wife’s heart was located in Sodom and towards the awful iniquity; this was despite the fact that she also desired to be with the people of God. Notwithstanding, Genesis 19:26 says of Lot, “his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”

Her foolish refusal to once-and-for-all turn her back on Sodom caused her to be instantly and completely destroyed. Through her un-preparedness, she was immediately cast into a lost hell – damned and doomed for all eternity – without hope and without Christ.

What Christ is therefore warning in this reading is this: ‘Remember Lot's wife because she was found wanting on the day when God finally poured out His judgment upon the wicked; be warned because His second coming will similarly expose the heart of every hypocrite, although on this occasion it will be for the very final time. Those left behind will face the same punishment as Lot’s wife – total destruction.

When Noah left the world of his day and entered into the ark there were many left lying in beds and grinding at mills to receive
the wrath of God and therefore destruction. The same happened in Lot's day. The same will happen at Christ’s Advent in glory.

After Christ described the destruction that accompanies His return, He talks about one being rescued the other being destroyed. Jesus tells us that those left behind will suffer the same total, immediate and awful doom that Noah's world and Sodom suffered in their day (Luke 17). Once the ark door closes that is it. It is too late.

 

[CadyandZoe]

2 Peter 3:3-13 is talking about what happens at the coming of Christ . . .

Not really. He is talking about the Day of the Lord, which includes both the coming of Christ and the Eschaton. These are not the same thing.
[/quote]
You are totally missing the thrust. There it is absolutely nothing here to do with a future age, but time in the here-and-now.
[/quote]Don't you recall what I said to you? The Millennial period takes place in this age.

 

[CadyandZoe]

As to understanding Revelation, you must get a grasp on the order of Revelation. A short rundown....

1. Revelation 4 and 5 are the rapture of the Church when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
2. Revelation 6 lines up with Matthew 24. The 4 horsemen of the apocalypse (1st 4 seals) are false christs, nations rising against nations, famines and pestilence of Matthew 24 (The beginning of sorrrows). The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. So Jesus comes at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins.
3. Revelation 7 is the sealing of the 144,000 and shows the result of the gathering from heaven and earth when Jesus comes at the 6th seal. (Great Multitude)
4. Revelation 8-11 The 7th seal is the wrath of God. The wrath of God contains the 7 trumpets and is OVER at the 7th trumpet.
5. Revelation 12-13 occur during the 6 seals.
6. Revelation 14. This also occurs in the 6 seals as the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. In Revelation 14 we see the Great Tribulation...
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
This should tell you that this event happens at the 5th seal which is the great tribulation. This also means that the 144,000 that are sealed in Revelation 7 have to be sealed by God before the 5th seal. Then at the end of Revelation 14 we have the coming of Jesus.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

This is the same coming of Jesus that occurs in Matthew 24 which happens at the 6th seal.

7. Revelation 15 and 16 are just of different view of the wrath of God meaning Revelation 15 and 16 occurs in the same timeframe as Revelation 8-11.

Thanks for your review. I appreciate it and understand how much work went into this presentation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay, so compare this passage with chapter 2.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. ​

I take note of the fact that Paul just described, in great detail, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Let there be no mistake, Jesus Christ comes with angels and with fire. And this is something that would be hard to miss or mistake for anything else. Right? And yet, here in Chapter 2, Paul seems to draw a distinction between the coming of Jesus Christ and the Day of the Lord. With regard to the DOL, Paul's readers were expecting a message or a letter from one of the Apostles to the effect that the Day of the Lord has come. In my mind, this is a clear indication that the DOL is not synonymous with the coming of the Lord and our gathering to him.

Where are you getting the idea that "Paul's readers were expecting a message or a letter from one of the Apostles to the effect that the Day of the Lord has come"? I'm not seeing that at all. Instead, I see a warning from Paul that they should not believe any message or letter that is supposedly from one of the apostles (but isn't) saying that the day of the Lord has come because there were certain things that had to happen first.

Paul was not at all differentiating between the second coming of Christ and the day of the Lord in 2 Thess 2. He used those terms synonymously.

2 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction

So, what Paul was indicating here is that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" will happen on "the day of the Lord" and he indicated "that day" (the day of the Lord when Jesus comes and we're gathered to Him) will not come until the rebellion (falling away) occurs first.

 

[WPM]

I am not avoiding them. If I wanted to avoid them I would waste my time here in this thread. Why do you fall for Satan's trap when he tempts you to take this line of argument. Don't fall for it.

Are you learning from other's? I am. I am now firmly convinced that 2 Peter 3 is focused on the Eschaton. I wasn't sure about that before.

Why are you teaching others on elementary basics like this when you don't know what you believe?

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. You think Paul was talking about "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape", but no one dies? He was talking about "the day of the Lord". Same thing as Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12. You don't think anyone dies during what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

Read it again. It refers to Jesus taking vengeance on those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel. All unbelievers fit that description.

Read the passage carefully.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

First, notice how Peter is telling his audience "what manner of persons" they ought "to be in all holy converstation and godliness" in light of the coming day of the Lord during which the heavens, the elements and the earth will be dissolved. You are trying to say this passage relates to the end of history which you believe will come 1,000+ years after the return of Christ. Why would Peter be telling his readers to be careful about "what manner of persons" they ought to be in light of the heavens and earth being burned up if what is described there couldn't possibly occur in their lifetimes? That makes no sense. He was clearing writing about something that could occur in the lifetimes of his readers, but your view makes that impossible.

Also, he indicated in 2 Peter 3:13 we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance with (in fulfillment of) the promise of the Lord's second coming. How does that statement make any sense if the new heavens and new earth aren't ushered in until 1000+ years after His return?

It says "all people, free and slave, great and small". Why are you not including the slaves and the small? The way it's worded shows that it's all-inclusive. All people of all types who aren't believers will be killed when He returns.

The slaves, great and small are soldiers. This doesn't include every slave.

 

[Truth7t7]

I see no evidence from the text to suggest to me that Isaiah was speaking of a situation other than a group of survivors who found protection within the city walls of Jerusalem.

Of course you don't want to see the book of life, and those found left in Zion being in the (Eternal Kingdom) everybody left is "HOLY" the righteous, this destroys your claim made

Isaiah below is speaking of those that are in the (Eternal Kingdom) those that have been found written in the book of life that "was opened" the final judgement has passed

Psalm 69:20KJ
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Isaiah 4:3KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

 

[WPM]

All I can say is that faith is a lonely road we must all travel alone and together.
You are mistaken. No, it is not clear, which is why one must first learn all one can about the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord consists of a beginning, a middle and an end. The Lord's parousia takes place in the middle of the DOL. The Eschaton takes place at the end.

Don't confuse the New Birth with Resurrection.

I am also taking the text literally, but there happens to be more than one way to take it literally. First of all, John explicitly names those who died that day, (verse 19) "kings of the earth and their armies." And pay attention to the explicit division between kings and armies. This will come up later.

Next, You may not be aware of the fact that the New Testament employs the term "all" in ways that are unfamiliar to us today. In this context, when it says "the flesh of all men" this refers to the kings and armies mentioned above. All of these particular men will die that day only only including the armies but the kings also. This clarification explains verse 18, where John's list of soldiers is much larger: the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.” The birds of the air are feasting on the flesh of the dead soldiers.

If this passage was speaking about the Eschaton, there would be no birds to feast on flesh.

Christ is not coming as Saviour of the world at the end but as its Judge. This is a solemn day for the wicked. Here we see the great final battle of the ages between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. On one side on earth you have the wicked confederacy of the beast’s armies on earth (namely all the wicked) arrayed against the armies of heaven (appearing in the sky) which relates to the people of God that are redeemed.

There are clearly two opposing armies in view here in this reading: the army of God, led by Christ, and the army of Satan. One is totally victorious; the other one is totally annihilated. This is talking about two kingdoms that are at war - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. This is consistent with repeated Scripture.

There are only 2 peoples on this earth in God's eyes - the redeemed and the wicked. These both are armies in conflict with each other. When Jesus returns the elect are caught up, the wicked are destroyed. These 2 peoples/armies carry one of 2 marks - God's mark or the world's mark of reprobation. This is a book full of symbolism denoting the great battle between light and darkness. There are only two different peoples in this life, they are walking two different roads, in two different directions, to two different destinations. The Christian is bound for heaven; the sinner is bound for hell. One group has the mark of the Father the other the mark of the beast. One is rescued in the marriage of the lamb, the other is destroyed.

The army of heaven (embodying the redeemed of all ages) returns after being caught up for the marriage of the lamb, leaving just one army on earth – the wicked. That is why this passage makes clear that this ‘left behind’ army is totally destroyed. This clearly rebuts Premil and forbids it. It leaves no goats left to saturate its millennium. Revelation 19:19 describes the righteous redeemed army, which includes the elect of all time (those that possess the spiritual robes of Christ's righteousness). It is this company that is rescued by Christ before He pours out His wrath upon the wicked. This will be like the destruction of the wicked in Noah and Lot’s day. The world was destroyed by water in Noah’s day and Sodom was obliterated by fire in his day.

 

[WPM]

The slaves, great and small are soldiers. This doesn't include every slave.

You avoid so much biblical evidence from other posters in order to facilitate your speculations. Your fly-by evasive replies do not cut it. They expose how bereft you are of biblical evidence. Address the arguments presented to you please.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, let's reject the constant and clear teaching of the prophets, Christ and the NT and default to your "common sense." I don't think so! Why do you avoid the scriptural text and all the arguments presented so much? You obviously know that it exposes your "common sense." Your ongoing avoidance is testimony to the fact you have no rebuttal.

Seems more like common nonsense. That's the result when someone relies completely on their own flawed mind and "common sense" instead of relying on scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The slaves, great and small are soldiers. This doesn't include every slave.

LOL. I'm convinced that I could tell you that 2 + 2 = 4 and you'll find a way to make 2 + 2 = 5.

It does not say the slaves are great and small, it says "all people" include free and slave, great and small. You clearly do not read scripture carefully.

Why did you not address anything I said about 2 Peter 3:10-13? I pointed out how Peter talked to his readers as though what he was writing about in 2 Peter 3:10-13 could happen in their lifetimes, but your view makes that impossible. Can you please address that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You avoid so much biblical evidence from other posters in order to facilitate your speculations. Your fly-by evasive replies do not cut it. They expose how bereft you are of biblical evidence. Address the arguments presented to you please.

This is absolutely true. As you like to say, he is just winging it. Making it up as he goes. Not willing to learn anything, but only willing to do anything he can, including adjusting his view on the fly, to fit Premil.

 

[WPM]

Not really. He is talking about the Day of the Lord, which includes both the coming of Christ and the Eschaton. These are not the same thing.

You are totally missing the thrust. There it is absolutely nothing here to do with a future age, but time in the here-and-now.

Don't you recall what I said to you? The Millennial period takes place in this age.

Again, your battle consists of your opinions. That is all we are getting from you. That is all you can give us. You have nothing biblically to rebut the Amil arguments here. This is such a one-sided discussion. Why not just admit you were wrong? That is better than explaining away literal text of passage after passage and denying the obvious.

 

[WPM]

LOL. I'm convinced that I could tell you that 2 + 2 = 4 and you'll find a way to make 2 + 2 = 5.

Exactly. Some people just like arguing for arguments sake.

 

[Truth7t7]

You claim that dispensationalism is a farce, but what you espouse here is as dispensational as it gets.

Darby and Scofield embrace you with open arms.

The dispensational camp reads your posts and rejoices.

You're their comrade steadfastly purveying their message.

Your "farce" claim is merely a camouflage.

Your "farce" claim is a farce.

Screaming Darby/Scofield hasn't answered the truth before your eyes, your response is "Silent"

"Biblical Truth" before your eyes, your claim of 66-70AD fulfillment of Daniel's AOD is Pinocchio's nose is growing again

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[WPM]

This is absolutely true. As you like to say, he is just winging it. Making it up as he goes. Not willing to learn anything, but only willing to do anything he can, including adjusting his view on the fly, to fit Premil.

Agreed! It is obvious!