22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

That is unfortunately what it says in English translations, but you should consider that the Greek word has more meanings than just "nations" and you should consider what the original prophecy says that is being referenced in Revelation.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Can you see here how the original prophecy indicates that it is "the heathen" that He will break with His rod of iron?

No. What would my parents say if upon giving me a brand new car for an inheritance, I took a big, lead pipe and smashed it to bits? What would that say about me as a person? Jesus would not destroy what his father gave him as an inheritance.

This indicates that He will be taking vengeance on individuals who don't have a relationship with God and reject the gospel of Christ.

The subject of that passage are those who afflict Christians, not anyone else.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Mmmmm. I'll highlight for you.... Again. There. Now I'll explain it. "And they sang a new song before the throne." That is in heaven. "and no man could learn the song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth." That means it's the 144,000 singing the song in heaven as no other man could learn the song.

Cut and dried. And yet............................................................................................................................................................

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

I understand that the angels are before the throne. But the 114K are situated on Mount Zion.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Isaiah below is speaking of those that are in the (Eternal Kingdom) those that have been found written in the book of life that "was opened" the final judgement has passed

Isaiah 4:3KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

I see no evidence from the text to suggest to me that Isaiah was speaking of a situation other than a group of survivors who found protection within the city walls of Jerusalem.

 

[Davy]

You have got to be kidding.

I have Bolded the hints...,


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

God has reserved a day for his final righteous judgment that will deal out full and complete and EVERLASTING destruction on the ungodly.
Those deemed righteous inherit everything on this day


Act 17
0 Therefore God overlooked and disregarded the former ages of ignorance; but now He commands all people everywhere to repent [that is, to change their old way of thinking, to regret their past sins, and to seek God’s purpose for their lives], 31 because He has set a day when He will judge the inhabited world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed and destined for that task, and He has provided credible proof to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

2Pet 3
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

Anyone can pull a verse here, and a verse there, out of The Bible and assign their 'own' doctrine to it, and make it 'seem'... believable. But that is not how to come to God's Truth in His Word. All of His Word MUST be considered before making any doctrine final. And it's very obvious that what folks like you are used to doing is just pulling select verses out of The Bible that appear to fit your created doctrine, and disregard the rest of Scripture.

Now I can understand how that happens, why it's easy to do that, because many preachers that preach for money, and whom God did not call, are taught to do it, and probably the majority of congregations don't study enough of God's Word for themselves to realize what those hirelings are doing, so they tend to follow the preacher's bad example of pulling out a verse here, and a verse there, and applying their own doctrines to it.

1. Isaiah 24:19-23 points to the wicked kings being locked in the pit prison, and after many days visited. That is a direct reference to the future "thousand years" by Jesus Christ that begins at His future return in Revelation 20. We are told there when Jesus returns, Satan will be locked in his pit prison during that thousand years period. So this Isaiah 24:22 event also is about that same timing, and gives weight to the fact that the destruction of the wicked does not happen yet on the day of Christ's future return, but at the end of the future "thousand years" of His reign on earth.

2. In Zechariah 14:16, which begins about Christ's future return to the Mount of Olives, we are shown the leftovers of the nations that came against Jerusalem (on the last day) will be made to go up to Jerusalem and worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles. And any nation that refuses to worship from year to year, there will be no rain upon their lands. This clearly reveals the wicked are still... existing for that time of Christ's future reign in Jerusalem. It is further proof of the unsaved nations still existing during the "thousand years" of Revelation 20.

3. In Revelation 3:9, Lord Jesus promised to the Church of Philadelphia (a symbolic Church that represents His very elect), He said He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship at His elect's feet. That "synagogue of Satan" are the strongest enemies of Christ here on earth, and represent the "tares" in Christ's parable in Matthew 13. Thus we well know they have not... bowed the knee to Jesus Christ in front of us yet today. That event is reserved for after... Christ's future return, and His reign over the wicked with His elect priests and kings. That is when those of the "synagogue of Satan" will bow the knee to Jesus Christ in front of His elect. Therefore, THIS ALSO reveals the wicked will still exist for Christ's future reign, which Revelation 20 shows will be a period of a thousand years, and then the Great White Throne Judgment will happen after that.

Just those above Scripture examples are enough Bible evidence that DEMANDS we don't just pull out those few Scriptures like jeffweeder did, and apply a different doctrine to them.

So how do we explain those Scriptures that jeffweeder posted?

Even in Christ's parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13, it says at harvest time the tares are cast into the fire. Nothing about a thousand years period is mentioned there by Lord Jesus. Does that mean that Matthew 13 Scripture overrides the Revelation 20 Scripture that does... declare a thousand years reign by Jesus after His future return? Not at all. Christ's Book of Revelation is about a 'revealing'. That means Lord Jesus gave it in order to show us more... information about future events. Furthermore, because He already hinted at His future thousand years reign in Old Testament Scripture like Isaiah 24 and other places in the prophets, it means He kind of already gave a hint of His future thousand years reign, even with using the word 'day' per God's time perspective through Apostle Peter (2 Peter 3:8), and also with dealing with Adam, that in the 'day' that Adam ate from the tree God forbade, in that 'day' Adam would die. Adam lived to 930 years and then died, not dying the day he ate, but in God's timing, within the thousand years for a 'day' timing.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The 144,000 are believers and are sealed.

Revelation 7
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

What you are seeing in Revelation regarding the 144,000 is the harvesting of the first fruits from the earth, as they are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne singing.

I realize this does not make sense to you that Jesus comes to the earth and raptures the first fruits to heaven. If you understood the order of Revelation, it would make more sense.

I see and understand that the sealing of God is the Holy Spirit coincident with belief as Paul says. I don't agree that belief in God necessarily indicates belief in Jesus Christ. I have two reasons to think this one historical and one Biblical.

Historically speaking, The Jewish people suffered at the hands of the German people, many of them Lutherans. [And I have nothing against Lutherans at all. I'm simply repeating history as seen from the Jewish person's point of view.] One should expect the Jewish people to become understandably suspicious of Christians and especially of Jesus. And not only this, the Talmud mentions Jesus by name and very unfavorably. In my view, therefore, we should expect to find God-fearers among the Jewish population who have never opened a New Testament and have never discovered the actual, real Jesus. They love God, they fear God, they obey God and if they had the chance to discover the real Jesus, they would become his followers. But because of an accident in history, they haven't considered it.

God is not without mercy, eventually the God-fearers will come to know and believe in Jesus. But, perhaps, not in time to be counted among the group specified in Revelation 7:9-17. The 144K are not given white robes are they? hmm.

Secondly, we have a New Testament precedent for this phenomenon. The NT talks about Gentile believers in God using the term "God-fearer" to indicate Gentiles who believed Moses and the prophets and worshiped God. These folks lived before and during Jesus' ministry. Along with Jewish believers, they anticipated the coming of the Messiah, and when he came, some if not all of them became Jesus-followers.

It is conceivable to me that the reverse might happen in our time. We might experience Jewish believers, who love God and fear God etc. that upon meeting Jesus will become his followers.

In that regard, I think that Revelation 7 indicates 144K "God-fearers" who have yet to become Christians. Revelation 14 indicates these same God-fearers who meet Jesus and begin to follow him.

Now, you said that a better understanding of Revelation might change my opinion. What did you have in mind?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so. The reason it will happen is because He says He will. He is coming to rescue all His elect and destroy all the wicked. He is coming to regenerate this sin-cursed world and restore it to its perfected state.

But that is the question. Did he say he will or not. That is the question. And one indicator that your interpretation is incorrect is the fact that it contradicts everything else we know about Jesus, and it contradicts common sense. Jesus would not return to earth in order to kill a bunch of people. Rather, Jesus is coming to earth in order to inherit his everlasting dominion, which begins with the vindication of God's holy name.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The same Shepherd who tenderly watches over the sheep of His pasture with a rod of care and correction is the same Shepherd who wields the rod of righteous anger against the goats at the end. The same rod that is used to protect and preserve the sheep during their existence is employed at the end to destroy and subdue. Every foe that has come against Christ’s flock will smote with a rod of destruction.

Maybe, maybe not. But, according to you, Jesus is already ruling over the righteous as their shepherd. Jesus doesn't need to return to earth in order to kill all the unrighteous. Amillennialism is filled with contradictions.

 

[The Light]

I understand that the angels are before the throne. But the 114K are situated on Mount Zion.

It seems you are ignoring facts. The 144,000 are redeemd FROM the earth. They are first fruits, which means that they are the wave offering before the throne. I'm always puzzled when obvious facts are denied. And that's a fact. I never can comprehend why obvious facts are denied.

 

[jeffweeder]

Anyone can pull a verse here, and a verse there, out of The Bible and assign their 'own' doctrine to it, and make it 'seem'... believable. But that is not how to come to God's Truth in His Word. All of His Word MUST be considered before making any doctrine final. And it's very obvious that what folks like you are used to doing is just pulling select verses out of The Bible that appear to fit your created doctrine, and disregard the rest of Scripture.

Now I can understand how that happens, why it's easy to do that, because many preachers that preach for money, and whom God did not call, are taught to do it, and probably the majority of congregations don't study enough of God's Word for themselves to realize what those hirelings are doing, so they tend to follow the preacher's bad example of pulling out a verse here, and a verse there, and applying their own doctrines to it.

1. Isaiah 24:19-23 points to the wicked kings being locked in the pit prison, and after many days visited. That is a direct reference to the future "thousand years" by Jesus Christ that begins at His future return in Revelation 20. We are told there when Jesus returns, Satan will be locked in his pit prison during that thousand years period. So this Isaiah 24:22 event also is about that same timing, and gives weight to the fact that the destruction of the wicked does not happen yet on the day of Christ's future return, but at the end of the future "thousand years" of His reign on earth.

2. In Zechariah 14:16, which begins about Christ's future return to the Mount of Olives, we are shown the leftovers of the nations that came against Jerusalem (on the last day) will be made to go up to Jerusalem and worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles. And any nation that refuses to worship from year to year, there will be no rain upon their lands. This clearly reveals the wicked are still... existing for that time of Christ's future reign in Jerusalem. It is further proof of the unsaved nations still existing during the "thousand years" of Revelation 20.

3. In Revelation 3:9, Lord Jesus promised to the Church of Philadelphia (a symbolic Church that represents His very elect), He said He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship at His elect's feet. That "synagogue of Satan" are the strongest enemies of Christ here on earth, and represent the "tares" in Christ's parable in Matthew 13. Thus we well know they have not... bowed the knee to Jesus Christ in front of us yet today. That event is reserved for after... Christ's future return, and His reign over the wicked with His elect priests and kings. That is when those of the "synagogue of Satan" will bow the knee to Jesus Christ in front of His elect. Therefore, THIS ALSO reveals the wicked will still exist for Christ's future reign, which Revelation 20 shows will be a period of a thousand years, and then the Great White Throne Judgment will happen after that.

Just those above Scripture examples are enough Bible evidence that DEMANDS we don't just pull out those few Scriptures like jeffweeder did, and apply a different doctrine to them.

So how do we explain those Scriptures that jeffweeder posted?

Even in Christ's parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13, it says at harvest time the tares are cast into the fire. Nothing about a thousand years period is mentioned there by Lord Jesus. Does that mean that Matthew 13 Scripture overrides the Revelation 20 Scripture that does... declare a thousand years reign by Jesus after His future return? Not at all. Christ's Book of Revelation is about a 'revealing'. That means Lord Jesus gave it in order to show us more... information about future events. Furthermore, because He already hinted at His future thousand years reign in Old Testament Scripture like Isaiah 24 and other places in the prophets, it means He kind of already gave a hint of His future thousand years reign, even with using the word 'day' per God's time perspective through Apostle Peter (2 Peter 3:8), and also with dealing with Adam, that in the 'day' that Adam ate from the tree God forbade, in that 'day' Adam would die. Adam lived to 930 years and then died, not dying the day he ate, but in God's timing, within the thousand years for a 'day' timing.

Hi Davy,
Your more guilty of what you accuse me of doing :)

Deal with the scripture I commented on.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


Do you conclude there is a thousand years between verses 9 and 10?

If so, then it makes a mockery of the surrounding verses that have the Lord coming to grant us relief on the day he comes in vengeance against those who afflict his Church... v 6 and 7

 

[WPM]

But that is the question. Did he say he will or not. That is the question. And one indicator that your interpretation is incorrect is the fact that it contradicts everything else we know about Jesus, and it contradicts common sense. Jesus would not return to earth in order to kill a bunch of people. Rather, Jesus is coming to earth in order to inherit his everlasting dominion, which begins with the vindication of God's holy name.

Yeah, let's reject the constant and clear teaching of the prophets, Christ and the NT and default to your "common sense." I don't think so! Why do you avoid the scriptural text and all the arguments presented so much? You obviously know that it exposes your "common sense." Your ongoing avoidance is testimony to the fact you have no rebuttal.

 

[WPM]

Maybe, maybe not. But, according to you, Jesus is already ruling over the righteous as their shepherd. Jesus doesn't need to return to earth in order to kill all the unrighteous. Amillennialism is filled with contradictions.

No contradictions. That is your position. That is why you refuse to address all the rebuttals that forbid what you have been taught. The lurker can check back on this thread and see who addresses each argument and who avoids every argument. Avoidance is your MO.

 

[WPM]

I don't think your explanation goes far enough to explain why Peter said what he said. I understand that a simile isn't the same thing as a metaphor. I get that.

But how does the simile answer the mockers? I don't think it does. The Mockers will say, "Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." This objection isn't a matter of slowness; its a matter of inactivity. Not only is God's promise "slow" in coming; according to the mockers, we have no basis on which to conclude that it will ever come. Nothing is happening at all. If God is doing something to bring about his promise it isn't evident to anyone.

For this reason, I don't think Peter gave his simile as a response to the mockers. Rather, Peter offers the mockers the Flood Event as proof that history does not always help us predict the future because God can intervene at any time he wishes. Peter's answer to the mockers is found in 2 Peter 3:5-7.

Beginning in verse 8, Peter intends to make a new but related point. One can readily understand Peter's first point and agree that his reasoning is sound and correct. The Mockers are wrong to suggest that history necessitates the future. But what about an extended delay? The promise might be fulfilled, but how do we interpret the delay? Why doesn't God start eternity right now. Why wait? It seems to me that Peter wants to address that question also.

He begins his answer with a double simile, which illustrates a concept that might escape the notice of some, had Peter not mentioned it: " with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day." What concept does this double simile convey other than the idea that God is time challenged? I don't think Peter means to say that God is outside of time, though I think he is. And I don't think Peter is suggesting that God doesn't experience time, since he also mentions the fact that God is patient. God is capable of accepting delay and so we should also accept delay with equanimity.

God is capable of living with a delay, but he is not subject to slowness. Why? Because to admit slowness is to admit that things aren't happening when expected or as planned. But for God, everything happens when he plans it to happen: not sooner, not later. Humanly speaking, the basis of slowness is human limitation, but God has no such limitation. No matter what duration he assigns to a particular task, we understand that the duration is not predicated on finitude.

Consider the possible ways that one might count slowness. There seems to be more than one way to count slowness: 1) taking or requiring a long time or 2) taking more time than expected, 3) registering a time or rate that is behind or below the correct one, and a few other ways to measure slowness that aren't worth mentioning here. In any case, human activity is typically limited to a human life span and one typically makes plans for a future in which one is still alive.

Peter's simile gives expression to the idea that God has no limit on the duration of a project or the amount of time something is expected to take. If we perceive a delay, we can rest assured that the delay is not the result of a contingency, or exigency but it is a planned interval of time suitable for his purpose, e.g time to repent.

All that being said, I find it fascinating that Peter chose to compare a day with a thousand years. If he had chosen to compare an hour with a thousand years, his central point would still be the same. It's possible that he compared a day with a thousand years because he was thinking of the Day of the Lord at the time of writing.

Have a great day.

2 Peter 3:3-13 is talking about what happens at the coming of Christ, not some imaginary time 1000+ years after the second coming. The mocking relates to the coming of Christ. The answer relates to the coming of the Lord. Peter is warning these fools that this appearance will catch them unexpectedly. It will involve the complete destruction of them and the old arrangement, and the complete replacement with a new arrangement.

The issue under discussion in 2 Peter 3:4 couldn't be clearer: “Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]?

All that being said, I find it fascinating that Peter chose to compare a day with a thousand years. If he had chosen to compare an hour with a thousand years, his central point would still be the same. It's possible that he compared a day with a thousand years because he was thinking of the Day of the Lord at the time of writing.

Have a great day.

You are totally missing the thrust. There it is absolutely nothing here to do with a future age, but time in the here-and-now. This text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 8 does not in any way indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. In fact, Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalm 93:2). This isn't rocket science. It is simple, accurate and contextual.

 

[The Light]

In that regard, I think that Revelation 7 indicates 144K "God-fearers" who have yet to become Christians. Revelation 14 indicates these same God-fearers who meet Jesus and begin to follow him.

Now, you said that a better understanding of Revelation might change my opinion. What did you have in mind?

As to understanding Revelation, you must get a grasp on the order of Revelation. A short rundown....

1. Revelation 4 and 5 are the rapture of the Church when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
2. Revelation 6 lines up with Matthew 24. The 4 horsemen of the apocalypse (1st 4 seals) are false christs, nations rising against nations, famines and pestilence of Matthew 24 (The beginning of sorrrows). The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. So Jesus comes at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins.
3. Revelation 7 is the sealing of the 144,000 and shows the result of the gathering from heaven and earth when Jesus comes at the 6th seal. (Great Multitude)
4. Revelation 8-11 The 7th seal is the wrath of God. The wrath of God contains the 7 trumpets and is OVER at the 7th trumpet.
5. Revelation 12-13 occur during the 6 seals.
6. Revelation 14. This also occurs in the 6 seals as the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. In Revelation 14 we see the Great Tribulation...
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
This should tell you that this event happens at the 5th seal which is the great tribulation. This also means that the 144,000 that are sealed in Revelation 7 have to be sealed by God before the 5th seal. Then at the end of Revelation 14 we have the coming of Jesus.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

This is the same coming of Jesus that occurs in Matthew 24 which happens at the 6th seal.

7. Revelation 15 and 16 are just of different view of the wrath of God meaning Revelation 15 and 16 occurs in the same timeframe as Revelation 8-11.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

The Lord teaches three distinct events in Luke 17, what I call "three episodes." Episode one refers to the Roman/Jewish wars of 70AD; Episode two refers to the rapture of the church; and Episode three refers to the Hebrew gathering in Jerusalem. None of these three refer to the Eschaton. We analyze each of these distinct events based on four different criteria: 1) the situation, 2) Prudent action to take, 3) Cautionary Advice, and 4) Conditions.

EPISODE 1 -- Escape from Jerusalem
Situation:
Therefore, when you see the Abomination of Desolation
Prudent action:
1. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
2. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Cautionary Advice:
Pray that your flight will not be in the winter or on a Sabbath.
Conditions:
The ability to act at one's own discretion
The AOD is the alarm/sign that one should leave.
One is to leave in haste.
One has the time (now) to pray for better circumstances
Flee Judea and head for the mountains.

EPISODE 2 -- Gathering to Jesus
Situation:
The Day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Prudent action:
Nothing other than being alert.
Cautionary Advice:
Be on the alert at all times
Conditions:
Involuntary removal
No conditions or state of affairs exist that requires quick or prompt action.

EPISODE 3 -- Gathering to Jerusalem
Situation:
The day that the Son of man is revealed.
Prudent action:
1. On that day the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to get them out.
2. and likewise, the one who is in the field must not turn back.
Cautionary Advice:
Remember lot's wife
Whoever seeks his own life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Conditions:
The ability to act at one's own discretion.
One is required to weigh the relative value of things against one's own existence.
Those who are not willing to abandon things will perish.

Each of these events are distinctive and different events, based on the situation, the prudent action one must take, the cautionary advice given by Jesus, and the conditions under which one must take action, if at all.

Jesus advises some people to leave Judea and head for the mountains. This is not appropriate advice for those who experience the Eschaton. Jesus advises others to leave home with haste. This advice is also not appropriate for those who experience the Eschaton. During that time, it won't matter where you live or where you are. Leaving home quickly or leaving Jerusalem quickly won't help anyone escape the end of the world.

WPM you have target lock, meaning, you are so focused on the Eschaton that you see it everywhere you look. Does the Bible teach concerning the Eschaton? Yes, but not as often as you might think.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

False. No connection. That is delusional. That does not say He rules earth and has nothing whatsoever to do with when He return with His saints to rule this earth with a rod of iron.

Again, no scriptural support from you. It's impossible to take you seriously.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hello! This is speaking about the impending destruction that is going to catch the mockers unaware. You have ducked around this for days. You refuse to address this. That is because it exposes your narrative. You have just done a U-turn with Spiritual Israelite. You don't seem to know what to do with this passage. Rather than embrace it, you are trying to explain it away or render it meaningless.

All I can say is that faith is a lonely road we must all travel alone and together.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer . . .

You are mistaken. No, it is not clear, which is why one must first learn all one can about the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord consists of a beginning, a middle and an end. The Lord's parousia takes place in the middle of the DOL. The Eschaton takes place at the end.

We have been in the millennial period since the first resurrection.

Don't confuse the New Birth with Resurrection.

I have showed you many times the impossibility of humans surviving the total destruction of Christ's return when it clearly shows "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great" (Revelation 19:18) are consumed. You dismiss a literal reading, and are forced to localize every single global destructive passage. Amils reject such a liberal approach to Holy Writ.

I am also taking the text literally, but there happens to be more than one way to take it literally. First of all, John explicitly names those who died that day, (verse 19) "kings of the earth and their armies." And pay attention to the explicit division between kings and armies. This will come up later.

Next, You may not be aware of the fact that the New Testament employs the term "all" in ways that are unfamiliar to us today. In this context, when it says "the flesh of all men" this refers to the kings and armies mentioned above. All of these particular men will die that day only only including the armies but the kings also. This clarification explains verse 18, where John's list of soldiers is much larger: the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.” The birds of the air are feasting on the flesh of the dead soldiers.

If this passage was speaking about the Eschaton, there would be no birds to feast on flesh.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Lord teaches three distinct events in Luke 17, what I call "three episodes." Episode one refers to the Roman/Jewish wars of 70AD; Episode two refers to the rapture of the church; and Episode three refers to the Hebrew gathering in Jerusalem. None of these three refer to the Eschaton. We analyze each of these distinct events based on four different criteria: 1) the situation, 2) Prudent action to take, 3) Cautionary Advice, and 4) Conditions.

EPISODE 1 -- Escape from Jerusalem
Situation:
Therefore, when you see the Abomination of Desolation
Prudent action:
1. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
2. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Cautionary Advice:
Pray that your flight will not be in the winter or on a Sabbath.
Conditions:
The ability to act at one's own discretion
The AOD is the alarm/sign that one should leave.
One is to leave in haste.
One has the time (now) to pray for better circumstances
Flee Judea and head for the mountains.

EPISODE 2 -- Gathering to Jesus
Situation:
The Day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Prudent action:
Nothing other than being alert.
Cautionary Advice:
Be on the alert at all times
Conditions:
Involuntary removal
No conditions or state of affairs exist that requires quick or prompt action.

EPISODE 3 -- Gathering to Jerusalem
Situation:
The day that the Son of man is revealed.
Prudent action:
1. On that day the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to get them out.
2. and likewise, the one who is in the field must not turn back.
Cautionary Advice:
Remember lot's wife
Whoever seeks his own life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Conditions:
The ability to act at one's own discretion.
One is required to weigh the relative value of things against one's own existence.
Those who are not willing to abandon things will perish.

Each of these events are distinctive and different events, based on the situation, the prudent action one must take, the cautionary advice given by Jesus, and the conditions under which one must take action, if at all.

Jesus advises some people to leave Judea and head for the mountains. This is not appropriate advice for those who experience the Eschaton. Jesus advises others to leave home with haste. This advice is also not appropriate for those who experience the Eschaton. During that time, it won't matter where you live or where you are. Leaving home quickly or leaving Jerusalem quickly won't help anyone escape the end of the world.

WPM you have target lock, meaning, you are so focused on the Eschaton that you see it everywhere you look. Does the Bible teach concerning the Eschaton? Yes, but not as often as you might think.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's a claim (The Beast) existed "Before" John wrote the revelation, and this claim is wrong

Revelation chapter 17 is future, and yes (The Beast) will be a literal future human man as Revelation chapter 13 clearly describes

What did John mean when he said the beast "was" in Revelation 17:8? What did he mean when he said the beast "is not"? What did he mean when he said the beast "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit"?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lot survived. So did Noah. So what can we conclude from this passage. God will keep for himself a remnant.

I also take the following verses literally.
I Thessalonians 5:2-3 -- Absent is any mention of death, destruction yes, death no.

LOL. You think Paul was talking about "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape", but no one dies? He was talking about "the day of the Lord". Same thing as Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12. You don't think anyone dies during what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 -- Absent is any kind of hint that the Lord's vengeance is ubiquitous. Paul has not focused on everyone; he has directed his focus on "those who afflict you." The judgment is limited to those who are guilty of persecuting Christians.

Read it again. It refers to Jesus taking vengeance on those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel. All unbelievers fit that description.

2 Peter 3:10-13 -- Here the passage is focused on the Eschaton, which takes place at the end of history. Contrary to some, The Day of the Lord is not synonymous with the Coming of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is like a story with a beginning, a middle and an end. The Second Advent takes place in the middle; the Eschaton takes place at the end.

Read the passage carefully.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

First, notice how Peter is telling his audience "what manner of persons" they ought "to be in all holy converstation and godliness" in light of the coming day of the Lord during which the heavens, the elements and the earth will be dissolved. You are trying to say this passage relates to the end of history which you believe will come 1,000+ years after the return of Christ. Why would Peter be telling his readers to be careful about "what manner of persons" they ought to be in light of the heavens and earth being burned up if what is described there couldn't possibly occur in their lifetimes? That makes no sense. He was clearing writing about something that could occur in the lifetimes of his readers, but your view makes that impossible.

Also, he indicated in 2 Peter 3:13 we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance with (in fulfillment of) the promise of the Lord's second coming. How does that statement make any sense if the new heavens and new earth aren't ushered in until 1000+ years after His return?

Revelation 19:11-16 -- Jesus does battle with armies. The soldiers are killed, not the entire population of the earth.
Verses 17-18 -- This list includes the soldiers and those who led them into battle.

It says "all people, free and slave, great and small". Why are you not including the slaves and the small? The way it's worded shows that it's all-inclusive. All people of all types who aren't believers will be killed when He returns.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You have got to be kidding.

I have Bolded the hints...,


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

God has reserved a day for his final righteous judgment that will deal out full and complete and EVERLASTING destruction on the ungodly.
Those deemed righteous inherit everything on this day

Okay, so compare this passage with chapter 2.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. ​

I take note of the fact that Paul just described, in great detail, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Let there be no mistake, Jesus Christ comes with angels and with fire. And this is something that would be hard to miss or mistake for anything else. Right? And yet, here in Chapter 2, Paul seems to draw a distinction between the coming of Jesus Christ and the Day of the Lord. With regard to the DOL, Paul's readers were expecting a message or a letter from one of the Apostles to the effect that the Day of the Lord has come. In my mind, this is a clear indication that the DOL is not synonymous with the coming of the Lord and our gathering to him.

This helps us understand Peter's letter where he also mentions both the coming of Jesus and the Day of the Lord in the same context. In my view, the coming of Jesus takes place in the middle of the DOL.

I'm not saying that unbelievers will survive into the next age. I'm saying that the picture is bigger and more complex than the simplistic representation depicted in this thread.