22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

The metaphor of a sword coming out of Jesus' mouth is meant to convey the idea that those who wield the sword are under Jesus' command. The purpose of the war is to defeat the enemies who come against him because, as John says, he will rule them with a rod of iron.

Now, the purpose of the war is to take dominion over the Earth and the people who live on the earth at that time. That is, the plan is to subjugate the people not to destroy them.

Not so. The time period mentioned (a thousand years) relates to a long period of assumed delay before the coming of Christ, not some supposed time period after it. Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldnt wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

 

[WPM]

So you are Postmillennial now? Hmm

You know I am Amil, although Amils and Postmils agree a lot. This period has been ongoing since the first resurrection. You are explaining away the literal detail of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 19 in order to facilitate your end-time views. Premils have to do that with so many Scripture. An objective straightforward reading of this passage would indicate a climactic and wholesale destruction.

 

[Truth7t7]

God intends to restore his reputation by bringing the Hebrew people back to the land, protect them from their enemies, bless them materially and protect them from natural disaster. Apparently, in his view, this will take at least a thousand years.

A Zionist fairy tale found no place in scripture

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

 

[Truth7t7]

From this passage we understand that the Second Advent is not coming with a total destruction of the earth. Rather, the fires that accompany the Lord's return are regional fires, located in the land of Palestine

Your claim of localized fires in palestine is "false" it will be the entire world, and all that dwells in it

Somewhat hard to take your claims and teachings serious, this being just one example

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is your interpretation, but in my view Peter wasn't giving a complete teaching on the Day of the Lord. Peter is giving a brief summary of that period in order to make a point about the significance of that time period.

Peter was clearly showing precisely that the day of the Lord was fire time for the heavens and earth (The End)

It's amazing how individuals will take something so simple seen below, and deny the simple teaching before their eyes

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[jeffweeder]

The coming of the son of man will be like that. Just as it was back then, people today are eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage. People today won't understand what is happening until the son of man comes. And just as it was back then, today we have preachers of righteousness trying to warn people of the impending judgment. And just as it was back then, God will provide a way for the righteous to escape what is coming.

In my view, the rapture of the church is analogous to Noah's ark.

Jesus has provided the way. He is the ark today. He will come and receive his own while the rest perish along with the heaven and the earth. The ungodly will suffer the same fate as those in Noah's day. This is repeated many times in the NT.

2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

Lk 21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep alert at all times [be attentive and ready], praying that you may have the strength and ability [to be found worthy and] to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man [at His coming].”

2pet 3
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.



9 The Lord does not delay [as though He were unable to act] and is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [extraordinarily] patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish with a [mighty and thunderous] roar, and the [material] elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be [in the meantime] in holy behavior [that is, in a pattern of daily life that sets you apart as a believer] and in godliness [displaying profound reverence toward our awesome God], 12 [while you earnestly] look for and await the coming of the day of God. For on this day the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the [material] elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But in accordance with His promise we expectantly await new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

14 So, beloved, since you are looking forward to these things, be diligent and make every effort to be found by Him [at His return] spotless and blameless, in peace [that is, inwardly calm with a sense of spiritual well-being and confidence, having lived a life of obedience to Him]. 15 And consider the patience of our Lord [His delay in judging and avenging wrongs] as salvation [that is, allowing time for more to be saved]; just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him [by God], 16 speaking about these things as he does in all of his letters.

 

[WPM]

Your claim of localized fires in palestine is "false" it will be the entire world, and all that dwells in it

Somewhat hard to take your claims and teachings serious, this being just one example

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

And they claim to be literalists?

 

[Truth7t7]

And they claim to be literalists?

False claims in Literal or Symbolic, whatever promotes their teachings and beliefs

Dispensationalism, Millennialism, and Preterism, all the same in false claims

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so. The time period mentioned (a thousand years) relates to a long period of assumed delay before the coming of Christ, not some supposed time period after it. Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldnt wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

My post was not in regard to the Millennial Period. Was it? I don't think so. Try to stay with me WPM. Nothing in Revelation 19 speaks about "total destruction." If you find it there, you brought it with you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You know I am Amil, although Amils and Postmils agree a lot. This period has been ongoing since the first resurrection. You are explaining away the literal detail of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 19 in order to facilitate your end-time views. Premils have to do that with so many Scripture. An objective straightforward reading of this passage would indicate a climactic and wholesale destruction.

I do take 2 Peter 3 literally. I explained this very clearly.

 

[CadyandZoe]

A Zionist fairy tale found no place in scripture

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

If Jesus destroys everything when he returns, how is he going to rule the nations with a rod of iron?

 

[Truth7t7]

If Jesus destroys everything when he returns, how is he going to rule the nations with a rod of iron?

Problem is your interpretation of "Rod Of Iron"?

Many falsely believe and teach its some sort of (Rulers Scepter) "Wrong"!

A "Rod Of Iron" is a "Tool Of Destruction" that a Potter destroys clay vessels with

Jesus returns and destroy's the wicked like a Potter destroy's his vessels with a "Rod Of Iron" its that simple

Sad part is, many have been clearly shown this truth several times, and they continue to teach error

The "Rod Of Iron" is a "Tool Of Destruction" not a "Kings Scepter" as many falsely believe and teach

Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your claim of localized fires in palestine is "false" it will be the entire world, and all that dwells in it

Somewhat hard to take your claims and teachings serious, this being just one example

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

The KJV got it wrong. Sorry.

 

[Truth7t7]

The KJV got it wrong. Sorry.

Your now a Greek scholar, this is just one verse showing the fire is global, consisting of the entire earth

Sad part is, you are clearly shown biblical truth, and you will continue to teach otherwise

"Who Shall Stand When He Appeareth"? Nobody!

"The Earth Melted"

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

 

[WPM]

My post was not in regard to the Millennial Period. Was it? I don't think so. Try to stay with me WPM. Nothing in Revelation 19 speaks about "total destruction." If you find it there, you brought it with you.

Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world. Revelation 20 starts the 7th of 7 parallels. Premils cannot or will not see that because it decimates their teaching. Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldnt wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

 

[WPM]

I do take 2 Peter 3 literally. I explained this very clearly.

No. You explained it away. 2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How can anyone survive this? They cannot! It's impossible! Well the second coming is the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

How can anyone survive this? They cannot! It's impossible! Well the second coming is the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

I Agree 100%, Millennialist live in a fictional world of denial

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus does NOT use fire to kill the armies of the AC. Their corpses are food for the carrion eaters.

The idea of the End happening at the glorious Return of Jesus, is preterist error, that violates chapter 20 of Revelation.

Preterist error? I believe the return of Jesus is in the future, not 70 AD. You are confused.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you are Postmillennial now? Hmm

Why did you say this?

He said this:

The time period mentioned (a thousand years) relates to a long period of assumed delay before the coming of Christ, not some supposed time period after it.

Did you somehow not know that this is what Amillennialists believe?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The metaphor of a sword coming out of Jesus' mouth is meant to convey the idea that those who wield the sword are under Jesus' command. The purpose of the war is to defeat the enemies who come against him because, as John says, he will rule them with a rod of iron.

Now, the purpose of the war is to take dominion over the Earth and the people who live on the earth at that time. That is, the plan is to subjugate the people not to destroy them.

You must be reading different text than I am. Let's take a look at it.

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

How exactly does the figurative description of birds eating the flesh "of all people, free and slave, great and small" describe subjugating people rather than destroying them? How does striking down the nations equate to subjugating them rather than destroying them?

And then it talks about Him treading "the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty". That is clearly not a case of subjugation rather than destruction, as we can easily seem from a passage like this:

Revelation 14:18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

This is obviously a description of complete destruction rather than subjugation. The scripture itself clearly does not support what you're saying.