22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[dad]

Your post is misformatted and should be corrected to allow for replies.

post 2215 already done

 

[Keraz]

I only care about what the Bible says, and what people think about that. There is *nothing* in the account of the Beast in Revelation that speaks of the AoD. So you can think about it all you want, but it doesn't exist.

The book of Daniel covers that. Rev 13 just gives more details about the beast.

It is wrong to say the AoD happened at 70 AD.
Proved by Daniel 9:27 saying it will happen at the mid point of the final 7 years.
Confirmed by Revelation 12:13-14, where it says that Satan is thrown out of heaven and the faithful people are taken to a place of safety for 3 1/2 years and by Revelation 13:5-6, where the 'beast' aka Satan is given 42 months [3 1/2 years], when he will be allowed to blaspheme God and to revile His Name and dwelling Place.
Further confirmed by Daniel 7:25....he will hurl defiance; alter the Laws and persecute the holy people for a time, times and half a time. [3 1/2 years]

Satan will come in person to the earth, he will take over the body of the 'beast' and conquer the faithful people, Zechariah 14:1-2, then sit in the new Temple and declare himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4
None of these Prophesies have happened yet and to say they have: is an avoidance of plain scripture and of the historical record.

Saying there is *nothing* and proof *doesn't exist* is a sad reflection on your Bible knowledge.

 

[Truther]

It is your failure to understand God's Plans for mankind - all of us. The House of Judah was the means He used to bring Jesus into the world.
Scripture is crystal clear that ONLY people who accept the Salvation offered by Jesus, are the peoples of God, His true Israelites.

Role Reversal:
When God shifted the entire means of salvation into the Spiritual realm and the ‘Chosen people’ from an ethnic group to all who would accept Jesus; 1 Peter 2:9-10, the identity of “Israel” was transformed into a Spiritual body. Thus, the only real Jew (or Israelite), is one who has experienced the Spiritual rebirth which is only available through Jesus.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly…in the flesh

In his magnificent teaching addressed to Christians who are of Gentile descent, Paul goes on to tell the believers that those who are born again in the Spirit, are now the real Jews:
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter of the law.


Obviously, this turned everything “upside down,” but it is widely misunderstood to this very day, as it seems that God still does help those who call them themselves Jews. What we must ascertain is just who it is that helps them: God or Satan?


Surely your turning of things upside down shall be as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? Or will the pot say of the potter: He has no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

The New Testament tells of events that occurred when the era of Spiritual salvation in Christ commenced, as those who were formerly chosen, based on their ethnicity, sought to retain their special position:

But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy went to the rulers of the city, crying, these that have turned the world upside down are here also. Acts 17:5-6

Amos 8:2...the time is ripe for My people Israel. Never again will I pardon them.

Paul quoted an ominous prophecy: Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets: Behold; you despisers, wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your day, Luke 13:32, a work which you won’t believe, even though a man declares it to you. Habakkuk 1:5, Acts 13:40-41


God chose Jacob’s descendants to be the people who would bring the Light of Salvation to the Gentiles. Isaiah 49:3-6

They divided into two Houses; Israel and Judah. They both disobeyed the Lord, so God sent His Son to provide a way of Atonement for those who would accept it.
Judah did not, but those of the House of Israel, still scattered among the nations; have to a great extent; become the Christian peoples.


To the Ephesians, (who were classed as Gentiles by the Jews) Paul states they were once identified with the Spirit of Death, which was associated with the not chosen Gentiles – as opposed to the False Prophet/Spirit of Hell which was found in the Jews under the Old Covenant.

And you [Ephesians]…were dead in trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:1

Paul goes on to say that it is that very Spirit of Death which now inhabits the children of disobedience. Ephesians 2:2

Paul also reminds the Ephesians that; they were, in times past considered Gentiles in the flesh, but now, through Jesus, they belong to a Spiritual body which is chosen by God.

But now in Christ Jesus you who before were far off are made near to God by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:13

Paul said the ethnic Jews were no longer to be considered Jews, Romans 2:28-29, but the Ephesian Christians were of a circumcision which is that of the heart.

Paul was careful to refer to the Christ rejecting Jews as “that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands. Ephesians 2:11


Writing to the Christians in Rome, the Apostle Paul eloquently described how Spiritual Israel, comprised of former ethnic Israelites and Gentiles, would reverse roles with those under the Old Covenant, and be spiritually born again as the people of God.

As he says in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, You are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:24-26

This shows the role reversal that happened at the Cross, in which Jewish Israel, full of the Spirit of anti-Christ, became part of the Death which inhabited the Gentiles.


The Christian Church, appointed to proclaim the Gospel to the world; is repeating the ancient apostasy and is fulfilling the prophecy of a last day’s falling away from the truth and following unscriptural doctrines.

His faithful servants should be obedient to the Lord’s command to come out of ‘Babylon’, for her sins have reached unto heaven. Jeremiah 51:6

Go out; leave Babylon behind, keep yourselves pure, you that have the favour of the Lord. You will not have to leave in haste, or leave like fugitives, as the Lord will go before you and will be your rear-guard. Isaiah 52:11-12


When the Lord destroys the ‘Babylon’ nations, He will whistle to call His faithful people from wherever they are, back to all of the holy land, where they will live in peace and prosperity. Zechariah 10:8-12

As I am saying, your replacement theology doctrine calls God a liar.

You teach that we REPLACE national Israel, contrary to the standard teachings of the Apostles and prophets.

We only get a tiny portion of it as we are pre-included, through a dark glass, partial experience today.

In the day that Jesus returns to save every last one of them as per Jer 31, then the dark glass will be removed from us and all Spiritual gifts will cease.

The entire world will be healed of all diseases and afflictions in that period of time.

You RT teachers believe God has given it all to us, as the devil tears lives apart and the world is disease ridden.

RT teachers teach that God is doing a bad job of governing the earth per what the Prophets actually wrote.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

My understanding of what Mormons typically believe is described here:

Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate gods. They also believe the Father and Son each have a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” but that the Holy Ghost “has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.” According to Joseph Smith, when Adam was formed in the image of God, it was a physical image. God the Father was once a mortal who lived on an earth. He died, was resurrected, glorified, and grew into his deified status. (According to Joseph Smith, there is a “God above the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”) God the Father is the literal father of all spirit-children, including Jesus and the Holy Ghost, whose divinity is derived from the parent-child relationship.

Do you agree with everything that is written there?

The above is fun-house-mirror style (there's a lot of bad info out there). Clarifying things, keeping it pithy & focused on the topic of God. If you want me to elaborate more, feel free to ask!

The Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Spirit are 3 different divine persons. For example during Christ's baptism, it was Christ in the water Christ getting baptized, the Father saying "This is my beloved Son", and the Holy Spirit descending like a dove. 3 different persons. The are 1 God through unity: they have the same will, goodness, glory, justice, mercy, etc. You can't say "well I want to follow the Son and ignore the Father"-- that doesn't make sense, they are one. The Father, Son, and Spirit are each divine, God, eternal, all powerful, all just, all merciful. Yes, the Father is Christ's Father (hence Father & Son).

Tackling some specific points:
- LDS Christians don't believe in homoousios or define "person vs being"-- we're not Creedal.
- LDS Christians & Creedal Christians agree that God the Spirit is a divine spirit without a body. God the Son is a divine spirit that, starting with His being born of Mary had a mortal body, and then a glorified resurrected body. Beliefs differ on God the Father, with Creedal Christians believing He's like the Spirit (divine spirit no body) & LDS Christians like the Son (divine spirit glorified body).
- The Father's history: there's actually no official stance on this subject. The 2 main speculations on it aren't scripture, nor actually discussed in church. To delve into these speculations requires a lot of background theology first and there's a lot of different views on it.

 

[covenantee]

Not one promise was replaced, only some fulfilled! The rest must be fulfilled also, Jesus said, every jot and tittle.

And it was. Every jot and tittle.

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

 

[covenantee]

I don't think he meant that we were sitting with thousands of angels now in the heavens.

Then what did he mean?

Right. We are not physically there yet. Nor is that what it is talking about.

Then what is he talking about?

Then it relates to what we were talking about --how?

You brought up Israel.

 

[Marty fox]

We only go there when we die. What has that got to do with all Israel being saved in the end?

Because it’s a current reality now we are apart of the new Jerusalem now all Israel is the church made up of both Jew and gentile. The Galatians were mostly gentiles

Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

 

[dad]

It is wrong to say the AoD happened at 70 AD.
Proved by Daniel 9:27 saying it will happen at the mid point of the final 7 years.

I agree with that.

Confirmed by Revelation 12:13-14, where it says that Satan is thrown out of heaven and the faithful people are taken to a place of safety for 3 1/2 years and by Revelation 13:5-6, where the 'beast' aka Satan is given 42 months [3 1/2 years], when he will be allowed to blaspheme God and to revile His Name and dwelling Place.
Further confirmed by Daniel 7:25....he will hurl defiance; alter the Laws and persecute the holy people for a time, times and half a time. [3 1/2 years]

Right

Satan will come in person to the earth, he will take over the body of the 'beast' and conquer the faithful people, Zechariah 14:1-2, then sit in the new Temple and declare himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4
None of these Prophesies have happened yet and to say they have: is an avoidance of plain scripture and of the historical record.

Looks like you have some things right.

Saying there is *nothing* and proof *doesn't exist* is a sad reflection on your Bible knowledge.

Not sure you are addressing the right poster, you just outlined my position.

 

[dad]

And it was. Every jot and tittle.

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

Not in any way has all prophesy (even about Jesus) been fulfilled. That is one reason Jesus stopped reading a passage in Isa about Him midway. The last part of the prophesy was about His return to earth.

 

[dad]

Then what did he mean?

I don't know. We can use the process of elimination. What he did not mean is that we are now sitting with thousands of angels in the heavenly city that will be our home one day. I did point out that the comparison between Mt Sinai and the law and Mt Zion was being made.

You brought up Israel.

OK, maybe things got lost along the way. Your main point then is...?

 

[dad]

Because it’s a current reality now we are apart of the new Jerusalem now all Israel is the church made up of both Jew and gentile. The Galatians were mostly gentiles

That is our home for the future and we are just strangers and pilgrims passing through down here. Of course we are not up there yet though. Just a citizen sojourning in a strange country.

Galatians 4:21-31

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

Great, so rather than claiming it means we are with angels and in the heavens now, you point out that it just represents covenants. That works for me.

Is that it?

 

[Marty fox]

That is our home for the future and we are just strangers and pilgrims passing through down here. Of course we are not up there yet though. Just a citizen sojourning in a strange country.

Galatians 4:21-31
Great, so rather than claiming it means we are with angels and in the heavens now, you point out that it just represents covenants. That works for me.

Is that it?

No what I’m pointing out is that it’s a current reality now and although we are not there physically we are spiritually as the Holy Spirit currently dwells within us thus we are with God in spirit

 

[covenantee]

Not in any way has all prophesy (even about Jesus) been fulfilled. That is one reason Jesus stopped reading a passage in Isa about Him midway. The last part of the prophesy was about His return to earth.

Whom to believe?

1. Jesus
2. dad

No problem for me.

 

[dad]

No what I’m pointing out is that it’s a current reality now and although we are not there physically we are spiritually as the Holy Spirit currently dwells within us thus we are with God in spirit

Since that is where we go when we die, it is a reality.

 

[dad]

Whom to believe?

1. Jesus
2. dad

No problem for me.

If you want to ignore that glaring fact that there are many promises we can still claim from the old testament and many still unfulfilled propheises go ahead. Don't pretend it is a choice that opposes God.

 

[Keraz]

Not sure you are addressing the right poster, you just outlined my position.

I was addressing RandyK.
I put in your quote as support for my reply.
However we do have some points of disagreement. People going to heaven at any time, ever: is one.

Since that is where we go when we die, it is a reality.

Nowhere does the Bible say anyone goes to live in heaven. Maybe Enoch and Elijah did, but they both wrote books and letters after the Lord took them up, so their removal was to another earthly location, the same as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39
Jesus said many times that for humans to live in heaven was impossible. John 3:13, +
Note: that eventually, God and therefore heaven comes to earth for Eternity. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[covenantee]

If you want to ignore that glaring fact that there are many promises we can still claim from the old testament and many still unfulfilled propheises go ahead. Don't pretend it is a choice that opposes God.

I'll stick with Jesus in Luke 24.

 

[jeffweeder]

Not in any way has all prophesy (even about Jesus) been fulfilled. That is one reason Jesus stopped reading a passage in Isa about Him midway. The last part of the prophesy was about His return to earth.

Why not quote the passage?

Is 61
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
Because the Lord has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
2 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord
And the day of vengeance of our God;

Lk 4
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Fast forward 17 chapters in Luke and we have the Lord proclaiming the days of vengeance.

Lk 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[Keraz]

Why not quote the passage?

Is 61
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
Because the Lord has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
2 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord
And the day of vengeance of our God;

Lk 4
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Fast forward 17 chapters in Luke and we have the Lord proclaiming the days of vengeance.

Lk 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The easily discernible difference is the Day mentioned in Isaiah 61:2b, is a single day, whereas the days when Rome conquered Judea and exiled the Jews, was a period of 65 years; from 70 AD until 135 AD.
Prophesies such as Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:5-8, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8 make it perfectly clear that the Day the Lord destroys His enemies is just a single Day.

 

[dad]

I was addressing RandyK.
I put in your quote as support for my reply.
However we do have some points of disagreement. People going to heaven at any time, ever: is one.

Consider the alternatives:)

Jesus said many times that for humans to live in heaven was impossible.

Was He human when He ascended? Are dead people that are saved human? He prepared a place for us. We will be with Him where He is. Guess where that is today?