22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Davy]

We covered this a few months back, we can do it again if you like?

Zech 14:1 The day of the Lord takes place, same as 2 Peter 3:10 earth destroyed by fire, Zech 14:8 the river of life is seen flowing from Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:12 men are consumed by fire as they stand on their feet

Isaiah 65:17 tells you directly it's the new heaven and earth

Ezekiel 47:12 describes the river and tree of life, as seen in revelation 22:1-2

Revelation 21:1 there was no more "Sea"?
Sea represents people in revelation, there was no more multitudes of people, it doesn't represent literal ocean water as you suggest

Nah, you also are twisting that per men's Amill theories.

Revelation 22:14-15 reveals Christ's elect only will be allowed inside the gates of the holy city and have access to the Tree of Life while the wicked are still outside the gates and not allowed in.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

That phrase in verse 15 of "For without are..." is linked to the timing of verse 14 above it.

It means the wicked are STILL THERE outside the gates of the holy city when the Tree of Life is manifest back on earth for Christ's elect.

I consider that place "without" the gates is the "outer darkness" that Lord Jesus warned about for after His 2nd coming...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

So what timing is that when the many will come and sit down in Christ's Kingdom with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but those others cast among the wicked to the "outer darkness"? One would be very foolish to say that already happened.

 

[Truth7t7]

I have countered the baloney your Amill false believes very well here so far. Kind of makes you angry, doesn't it?

When are you going to cover the timing for the Zechariah 14:16-19 verses?

When are you going to cover the timing of the Matthew 25:31-33 verses?

When are going to cover the timing of Jesus reigning over the nations with a rod of iron per the Psalms 2, Revelation 2:7, Revelation 12:5, and Revelation 19:15 Scripture?

Zechariah 14:1 is the day of the Lord, also seen in 2 Peter 3:10 You believe this day of the Lord is just a little girl scout campfire in earth renewal, when it's showing the earth dissolved "Gone"

Matthew 25:31-46 sheep/goat is nothing more than a "Parable" of the GWT judgement spoken to herdsmen, Matthew 25:46 shows the final judgement righteous eternal life, wicked everlasting punish.ent (The End)

Revelation 19:15 (Rod Of Iron)?
Jesus returns in "Destruction" of the wicked, as a Potter destroys his vessels with a rod of iron, it doesn't represent Jesus sitting on a throne ruling as many suggest

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh, so He will just return for judgment, leave the earth in ruins and just return back up to heaven?
All righty then.

Who said that? No one. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. In 2 Peter 3:10-13 it indicates that He will renew the earth by fire, resulting in the new earth. No one said He will just leave the earth in ruins and go back to heaven. What a ridiculous notion.

 

[WPM]

There's another possibility, and it may or may not be happening, and if it is, it may or may not be conscious on the part of those doing it. Bad behavior can be a method of "bullying", that is, acting so poorly towards one or some so as to drive them off of a thread.

Only we can know our own intentions, and even we sometimes fail to understand ourselves. May God give us understanding!

Much love!

It is notable that you refuse to condemn the crude and unChristian Premil rhetoric against Amils on this thread. That is why it is hard to take your comments serious. They are just classic theological partisan politics!

“You are a fake.”

“This is hilarious.”

"Hogwash -- all of it!"

"Balderdash!”

"more hot air!"

"You need to repent to Jesus and ask Him forgiveness for denying His Word."

“What you're asking is just silly.”

“you need to get real, and stop those silly vague questions that only serve as attempted traps, like "are you still beating your wife?"

“I ain't easy prey like you're used to.”

“why not admit the charlatans you heed failed to prepare you for that”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course you aren't interested in anything outside of your view. It doesn't matter what any of us say, you will hold to your view.

Isn't that true of you as well? Are you actually open to changing your view? I doubt it.

 

[Truth7t7]

You have addressed nothing. I suspect you know that by your frustrated and offensive language. You present these passages as support for your opinion of Rev 20 yet show us nowhere where they mention some supposed future millennium.

I have no difficulty addressing Zechariah 14:16-19 Matthew 25:31-33, Psalms 2, Revelation 2:7, Revelation 12:5, and Revelation 19:15, all of which reinforce the Amil position. But the burden of proof is with you to 1st show they support Premil. You are the one making the claims.

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That would be off topic, no?

Unless the topic is to criticize and make examples of all premill posters, and just put up with Amils playing 20 questions?

As usual, you missed the point. It's only Amils being criticized for our comments while nothing is said about a Premil who is making rude remarks in all of his posts and even saying people are denying Christ.

 

[Davy]

Like I said, you can't take the words (Thousand Years) and build a straw man literal kingdom on this earth that's not seen anywhere in scripture

You just lied against the Scripture of God's Word, big time.

Zechariah 14 is about the timing of Christ's future return, and REIGN over the whole earth. And mentioned there are leftovers of those who came upon Jerusalem being made to come worship Christ The KING in that future time. That means the wicked are STILL there after Christ's future return.

Likewise in Matthew 8:11-12, and in Revelation 22:14-15, the wicked are still shown existing after Christ's future return and the gathering of His Church.

Thus your, "... literal kingdom on this earth that's not seen anywhere in scripture," idea is completely false.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The fruit of premillennialism is fear, is security in wealth and being part of the church now and tragedy that will fall on others but not us.

I don’t see this as being completely accurate, although I can sort of grasp what you say in this way - a lot of premil men do not have the humility to wonder if they will be counted worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the whole world. They just assume they will need no further testing and sifting. I rather doubt some of them have even prayed to be found worthy to escape it as we are told to, since their indoctrination causes them to have a certainty that does away with humility.

 

[Truth7t7]

You just lied against the Scripture of God's Word, big time.

Zechariah 14 is about the timing of Christ's future return, and REIGN over the whole earth. And mentioned there are leftovers of those who came upon Jerusalem being made to come worship Christ The KING in that future time. That means the wicked are STILL there after Christ's future return.

Likewise in Matthew 8:11-12, and in Revelation 22:14-15, the wicked are still shown existing after Christ's future return and the gathering of His Church.

Thus your, "... literal kingdom on this earth that's not seen anywhere in scripture," idea is completely false.

My post #246 above states otherwise concerning your claims of Zechariah 14

 

[Davy]

Of course it is not a physical earthly kingdom, as Premils imagine. You keep presenting Zechariah 14 I support for your opinion of Revelation 20, yes you have not been able to present a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts). That is because they do not correlate. This is your supposed proof-text and yet you have nothing of substance to bring to the table. You will never be able to because they do nit say what you want them to say.

And you only continue to make false claims.

The Zechariah 14:16-19 Scripture is very easy to understand.

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

The Zechariah 14:1-8 verses already document that timing is about Jesus' future 2nd coming back to this earth upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. No need for me to go into that then.

But the above verses is are just one Scripture proof of the WICKED STILL EXISTING after Christ's return and start of His future reign on earth. (If you'll notice brethren, the Amill folks conveniently leave this Scripture out of their coverage of Zechariah 14.)

Matthew 8:11-12 is another proof of the unsaved still existing and put out to the outer darkness after Jesus returns.

Also the Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture is proof of even the Tree of Life existing back on earth while the wicked are outside the gates of the holy city.

 

[Davy]

It is notable that you refuse to condemn the crude and unChristian Premil rhetoric against Amils on this thread. That is why it is hard to take your comments serious. They are just classic theological partisan politics!

“You are a fake.”

“This is hilarious.”

"Hogwash -- all of it!"

"Balderdash!”

"more hot air!"

"You need to repent to Jesus and ask Him forgiveness for denying His Word."

“What you're asking is just silly.”

“you need to get real, and stop those silly vague questions that only serve as attempted traps, like "are you still beating your wife?"

“I ain't easy prey like you're used to.”

“why not admit the charlatans you heed failed to prepare you for that”

Jesus will condemn ALL... those who support a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, which is the beast kingdom of Satan for the very end of this world. That... is the idea men's doctrine of Amill is supporting, because they believe in the false 'Kingdom Now' LIE.

So you've still got a little bit of time to repent, and make a change before that false one-world government is complete, and it's almost complete today.

 

[Davy]

My post #246 above states otherwise concerning your claims of Zechariah 14

You failed to cover the Zechariah 14:16-19 Scripture which I did... cover in my post #251.

 

[Truth7t7]

You failed to cover the Zechariah 14:16-19 Scripture which I did... cover in my post #251.

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[marks]

It is notable that you refuse to condemn the crude and unChristian Premil rhetoric against Amils on this thread. That is why it is hard to take your comments serious. They are just classic theological partisan politics!

My comment there was general, not directed to anyone.

You know what they say, though, someone yells because they got hit.

Take my comments or leave them. You've been leaving them from the beginning, don't try to blame that on something else.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

No need to leave the subject of Zechariah 14:16-19 with the leftover wicked that came up against Jerusalem being made to worship The KING at that time, and keep the feast of tabernacles. That is proof of the "thousand years" reign by Christ starting at His future coming in Revelation 20 is literal.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So you don't understand what the Amill theory is really about?

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return. (from the Theopedia website).

What did Lord Jesus show us about the very end of this world per His Revelation?

Jesus showed us that a one-world beast kingdom having ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns will be setup over all nations and peoples for the end, with the "dragon" being worshiped by the whole world, except Christ's elect.

In Christ's Olivet discourse, He warned about the end of a pseudo-Christ that comes first that the deceived will say is Christ, and that specific false one will work great signs and wonders that IF it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect.

Amillennial theory is preparing... its deceived for the coming of that pseudo-Christ, because they already believe Christ's Kingdom is established here on earth 'today', 'now', and all that is left is for Christ's future literal return.

Can you imagine their deceptions even a little, because their theory means looking away from all the evil happening on this earth even today, just so they can say Jesus is reigning over the earth now. He is not reigning over the earth just yet, but He will, as written.

Look, once again, you are making a mans current understanding to be something it is not. No man is going to be judged by his current understanding or else the renewing of his mind is done away with as an ongoing thing with line upon line and precept upon precept and from trust to trust. We will be judged by what we do with what we are given. We will not be judged by what we weren’t given.

And if your understanding is wrong in places (which it is for all of us) but your practice of trust is correct and your humility is correct, and you are growing in these, you’re doing well and pleasing God. But if your understanding is wrong in places (which it is for all of us) AND your practice of trust and humility is wrong, you are just a noise! Some of the men you are contending with see that, why can’t you?

 

[Truth7t7]

You failed to cover the Zechariah 14:16-19 Scripture which I did... cover in my post #251.

The Lake of fire is in the New Heaven and Earth, outside the gates of New Jerusalem

Isaiah 66:22-24KJV
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Revelation 22:14-15KJV
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[WPM]

Jesus will condemn ALL... those who support a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, which is the beast kingdom of Satan for the very end of this world. That... is the idea men's doctrine of Amill is supporting, because they believe in the false 'Kingdom Now' LIE.

So you've still got a little bit of time to repent, and make a change before that false one-world government is complete, and it's almost complete today.

I presented the evidence and you ducked around it. Your theology cannot abide the Word. Your avoidance shows that. The kingdom is here not and the redeemed enter into it by faith - fact. You have nothing to refute that with. Your fight is with the Scriptures.

 

[Davy]

Look, once again, you are making a mans current understanding to be something it is not.

I don't know why you'd say that, I am not condemning anyone to hell, only Jesus has that authority. And showing the error of doctrine is easy if one stays in God's Word, which is what I am doing. So you should be judging what I'm showing in God''s Word instead of following fools that only want me to shut up as to what God's Word actually says as written.

And by the rest of what you wrote, you reveal that you don't understand about the events of the end of this world that Lord Jesus warned His faithful servants about. So I'll say it again, if not for you, but for others that will listen...

The Amill position is in support of Satan's working of a one-world government.

The idea of a one-world government is about the beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns of Revelation 13 that is to happen at the very end of this present world.

Those who are behind that beast kingdom being established today are the children of darkness, Satan's host.

Some so-called Christian denominations are helping... that one world government movement, as they see it as a good thing. Who wouldn't want world peace, and a chicken in every pot for everyone on earth, craft prospering, etc.?

Jesus and His Apostles warned His faithful servants to not be deceived. Those in Christ are to be aware... of that coming time of "Peace and safety" upon the whole earth, because that was prophecy per the Book of Daniel about the coming of a false king in power over the whole earth and false worship.

The 'Kingdom Now' ideas support this movement on earth today. And the Amill doctrine of men is part of it, simply because the 'Kingdom Now' theory is one of the main ideas that Amillennialism believes.

But the reality per Lord Jesus and His Apostles, is that a false Messiah is coming first, prior to Jesus' future return. And the false Messiah is to setup the "image of the beast" in false worship. Those who refuse to bow to it are to be killed (Rev.13). This is what is coming upon this earth in our times with the one-world government movement. And it is this idea that Amill supports with its false belief that there is no literal reign on earth by Jesus AFTER His future coming. This is why they dump the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect after His future return, per Rev.20. They want us to wrongly believe that Lord Jesus is reigning over the earth now, from Heaven.