22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

So now we must MODIFY God's timing per your view?

2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
KJV

Must be a very real Truth there if Peter told us to not be ignorant of that.

One day is with The Lord as a thousand years.

That is His timing relation, not ours, and it is meant literally, for Apostle Peter wouldn't be commanding us to not be ignorant of that if he were just giving an expression.

You are totally missing the thrust. There it is absolutely nothing here to do with a future age, but time in the here-and-now. This text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 3 does not in any way indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. In fact, Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalm 93:2). This isn't rocket science. It is simple, accurate and contextual.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So now we must MODIFY God's timing per your view?

2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
KJV

Must be a very real Truth there if Peter told us to not be ignorant of that.

One day is with The Lord as a thousand years.

That is His timing relation, not ours, and it is meant literally, for Apostle Peter wouldn't be commanding us to not be ignorant of that if he were just giving an expression.

This is a very valid point. I still don’t like the way you choose to speak to others but…a very valid point.

 

[Davy]

okay, fair. I won’t even go look it up. I’ll take your word for it that it says “a” rather than “one.” I seem to recall (at least in my translation) that in one of those 3 instances it says “the thousand years” But it’s repeated three times and I think that’s evidence.

Don't be fooled, The Old Testament is full of cases where "a thousand" is used and it literally means one thousand.

 

[WPM]

okay, fair. I won’t even go look it up. I’ll take your word for it that it says “a” rather than “one.” I seem to recall (at least in my translation) that in one of those 3 instances it says “the thousand years” But it’s repeated three times and I think that’s evidence.

I did not say it didn't. I was specifically speaking about the non-mention of the number "one," which most Premils miss.

 

[Davy]

This is a very valid point. I still don’t like the way you choose to speak to others but…a very valid point.

As long as you get the gist of what I say.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

okay thanks for answering. I have confusion between being told in the OT to not wish that day to come because it will be darkness and destruction with no light and that you don’t know what you’re saying to wish that day to come, while also the NT speaking of those who love the thought of His appearing and hastening the day. I don’t think they can be speaking of the same exact day. My mind can’t reconcile it otherwise.

Which OT scripture are you referring to? You understand that things will be very different for believers and unbelievers on that day, right? Obviously, we look forward to the day Christ returns while unbelievers do not. So, I'm confused as to what you are talking about here.

Look at this passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Can you see here that the day Jesus comes to punish unbelievers is the same "day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed"? You seem to think those things need to happen on different days, but that is not the case.

 

[Truth7t7]

in Zech 14, the 16th and 17th verses are a bit tricky to your assertion (if I’m understanding correctly?) that this is after the day of the Lord and return of Christ. God punishes people on the new heavens and earth with no rain who don’t go to worship Him and sends plagues on nations?

Also, Isaiah 65:20 says if someone dies at 100 years old, they will be thought a child still at that age. So if this is after the new heavens and earth, there will still be at least some death there?

Also, in Ez 47, the seas will still exist and people will be giving birth and having children. But we read in revelation that there will no longer be a sea on the new heaven and earth.

so…if these describe the new heaven and earth, and after the judgement, it would have at least some death still existing, seas still existing, and marriage, pregnancy and birth still existing.

We covered this a few months back, we can do it again if you like?

Zech 14:1 The day of the Lord takes place, same as 2 Peter 3:10 earth destroyed by fire, Zech 14:8 the river of life is seen flowing from Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:12 men are consumed by fire as they stand on their feet

Isaiah 65:17 tells you directly it's the new heaven and earth

Ezekiel 47:12 describes the river and tree of life, as seen in revelation 22:1-2

Revelation 21:1 there was no more "Sea"?
Sea represents people in revelation, there was no more multitudes of people, it doesn't represent literal ocean water as you suggest

 

[marks]

Isaiah 65:23

"They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them."

Children come from somewhere.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Jesus doesn’t reign because satan is bound

You realize I'm not saying anything like this . . . do you? That Jesus only reigns if Satan is bound? I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

I did not say it didn't. I was specifically speaking about the non-mention of the number "one," which most Premils miss.

Are you going to ban the use of the word millennium in this thread?

To insist on a literal rendering, this word needs prefixed by a number to denote exact value. However, in the case of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 20 no number precedes the word chilia thus leaving it indefinite. There are no grounds therefore to insist it represents a literal “one thousand” and no proof that we are looking at one thousand years. It simply doesn’t state such. Notwithstanding, there is a noun meaning "a thousand,” in the sense of a (singular) group of 1000: “chilias.” This is used, in the plural, for phrases in Scripture like “the number of the men were five thousand.”

So for "a thousand" to be literal there has to be 2 of them? A thousand by itself cannot be literal?

 

[marks]

Or could satan be spiritually bound by deceiving those who choose to have the Holy Spirit through the power of the gospel?

I don't know what you mean here.

Where the Bible speaks of Satan being bound and in the abyss, "that he should not deceive the nations".

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

To insist on a literal rendering, this word needs prefixed by a number to denote exact value. However, in the case of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 20 no number precedes the word chilia thus leaving it indefinite. There are no grounds therefore to insist it represents a literal “one thousand” and no proof that we are looking at one thousand years. It simply doesn’t state such. Notwithstanding, there is a noun meaning "a thousand,” in the sense of a (singular) group of 1000: “chilias.” This is used, in the plural, for phrases in Scripture like “the number of the men were five thousand.”

You lost me at Chilia. English please!
I don’t find this to be a strong argument in your favor. In English, a thousand dollars means one thousand dollars whether you say “a” or “one.” Which is not the same as when I say, I’ve told you a thousand times, I don’t like peas! In that case, in English, you are expected to understand that a thousand times is not literal or exacting. But if I say, I will pay you a thousand dollars (or one thousand dollars) to power wash my siding, it’s understood that it’s literal.
So…I don’t find this to be a strong point in your favor.

 

[marks]

Read what else happens (in that day) in Zechariah chapters 12-14 and you will see that Zechariah was talking about the day of the first advent

Zechariah 14:1-10 KJV
1) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7) But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10) All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

I don't see that being the case, myself. Just this portion alone is filled with events that haven't happened, at least as I know history.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

No. Not men's doctrines, biblical Christianity.

One has to actually follow... The Bible as written before they can claim their doctrine is following "biblical Christianity". So far, you avoid the Scriptures I asked you about. And truly, all I have to do is mention one of them, like the Zechariah 14 example.

Christ ushered in the kingdom of God when He came. Jesus said in Matthew 11:12, “from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth (biazo) violence, and the (biastes) violent take it by force.”

You suffer violence, you suffer resistance, you suffer push back.

Those who keep God's Word as written don't suffer the kingdom with violence. The proper interpretation of that verse is about those who DESIRE the Kingdom to come! And they try to press into it.

We should immediately note: for men to be able to press into the kingdom and for it to suffer violence it must already exist. The Greek word biazo here means to force, to crowd oneself into, or to seize. The kingdom of God is shown here to be a present reality that the righteous enter upon salvation. This has been the case since John the Baptist. The spiritual kingdom Christ brought was very-much alive and active from the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.

Kingdom in The Spirit, yes, literal physical Kingdom here on earth, not yet.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."
KJV

Christ's Kingdom in Spirit is already here on earth today, but that's all. Church buildings are not His Kingdom, even our flesh isn't His Kingdom. But The Holy Spirit dwelling in those of His that believe on The Father through His Son, His Kingdom is within those of us who believe.

Yet there will also be a LITERAL Kingdom too, and that Kingdom is still yet to come, and will NOT come until Jesus Himself returns to this earth as written. Zechariah 14 is one of those Scriptures you avoid that tells us about His future literal return and literal Kingdom to come on earth.

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of Jews missed their promised Messiah when He came. He just didn’t fit their expectation of who and what the Messiah was to be. Also, they had an erroneous political racial perception of what the kingdom was. They had a carnal earthly view of Messiah and His kingdom....

I wouldn't be so quick to knock the Jews, because per Apostle Paul in Romans 11, God has blinded them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. God has not forgotten them, as Paul shows there.

Furthermore, the Jews understood... that God's future Kingdom is to be a 'literal' Kingdom upon this earth, not some floating mystical mystery tour idea. And they knew the coming of Messiah to rule over it is a Biblical requirement.

The rest of your post is just an attempt to skirt the real issue of God's written Word that supports Jesus' future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 with His elect.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Which OT scripture are you referring to?

I went and found it. It’s in Amos 5.
What sorrow awaits you who say, “If only the day of the LORD were here!” You have no idea what you are wishing for. That day will bring darkness, not light.

So it’s contrasted with this in 2 Timothy 4: And now the prize awaits me—the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on the day of his return. And the prize is not just for me but for all who eagerly look forward to his appearing.

There’s another contrasting verse but I can’t think of it right now.
But, the verses seem to war with one another unless they are both NOT talking about the same thing.

 

[WalkInLight]

I did not say it didn't. I was specifically speaking about the non-mention of the number "one," which most Premils miss.

Jesus said to judge teachers by their fruit.
The fruit of the spirit is joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, love....

The fruit of premillennialism is fear, is security in wealth and being part of the church now and tragedy that will fall on others but not us.
It exalts people who claim they know the date and time and they are the prophet who will deliver them from this terrible situation.

More cults and weird groups have been built on this emotional dynamic which do not exalt Jesus and His deliverance in everyday life, but puts a dividing line between the followers of the prophet and the world...little wonder the prophet loves the attention and the wealth that results and when the date fails to deliver the end, just put it off a bit more, to continue the ride.

God bless you

 

[marks]

That would be off topic, no?

Unless the topic is to criticize and make examples of all premill posters, and just put up with Amils playing 20 questions?

There's another possibility, and it may or may not be happening, and if it is, it may or may not be conscious on the part of those doing it. Bad behavior can be a method of "bullying", that is, acting so poorly towards one or some so as to drive them off of a thread.

Only we can know our own intentions, and even we sometimes fail to understand ourselves. May God give us understanding!

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Tsk. You’re making this a life and death matter. Whether a man has received the Holy Spirit is a life and death matter, not this.

So you don't understand what the Amill theory is really about?

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return. (from the Theopedia website).

What did Lord Jesus show us about the very end of this world per His Revelation?

Jesus showed us that a one-world beast kingdom having ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns will be setup over all nations and peoples for the end, with the "dragon" being worshiped by the whole world, except Christ's elect.

In Christ's Olivet discourse, He warned about the end of a pseudo-Christ that comes first that the deceived will say is Christ, and that specific false one will work great signs and wonders that IF it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect.

Amillennial theory is preparing... its deceived for the coming of that pseudo-Christ, because they already believe Christ's Kingdom is established here on earth 'today', 'now', and all that is left is for Christ's future literal return.

Can you imagine their deceptions even a little, because their theory means looking away from all the evil happening on this earth even today, just so they can say Jesus is reigning over the earth now. He is not reigning over the earth just yet, but He will, as written.

 

[Truth7t7]

Like I said before, you cannot... try to separate the Revelation 20 chapter away from the REST of God's Word. It is totally ignorant to try and do that. That's why you have absolutely NO basis for your argument at all, because you want to try and argue against ALL those other Scriptures as if non-amill folks just made them up!

Like I said, you can't take the words (Thousand Years) and build a straw man literal kingdom on this earth that's not seen anywhere in scripture

 

[WPM]

Kingdom in The Spirit, yes, literal physical Kingdom here on earth, not yet.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."
KJV

Christ's Kingdom in Spirit is already here on earth today, but that's all. Church buildings are not His Kingdom, even our flesh isn't His Kingdom. But The Holy Spirit dwelling in those of His that believe on The Father through His Son, His Kingdom is within those of us who believe.

Yet there will also be a LITERAL Kingdom too, and that Kingdom is still yet to come, and will NOT come until Jesus Himself returns to this earth as written. Zechariah 14 is one of those Scriptures you avoid that tells us about His future literal return and literal Kingdom to come on earth..

Of course it is not a physical earthly kingdom, as Premils imagine. You keep presenting Zechariah 14 I support for your opinion of Revelation 20, yes you have not been able to present a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts). That is because they do not correlate. This is your supposed proof-text and yet you have nothing of substance to bring to the table. You will never be able to because they do nit say what you want them to say.

The kingdom is a spiritual heavenly kingdom that we enter in by faith in this life. There is no other sin-cursed, death-blighted, goat-infested future millennium as you argue.

We are spiritual beings now. We are born from above. Why? Christ was a heavenly man. He was from above. We see this in John the Baptist’s words in John 3:31, "He that cometh from above (the Greek word is anothen) is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all."

When Christ came to this earth mankind encountered heaven face-to-face. God had stepped out of eternity into time. But it is not just that He was a heavenly man that came from eternity. Jesus said in the exact same chapter in John 3:3: “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (or anothen or born from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

He was a heavenly man who became an earthly man so that we earthly men could become heavenly men. A Christian is no longer worldly, they are heavenly! If your heart is out there in this world this morning, then that is who you are. That is your identity. That’s what lights your fire! That is where you belong.

Ephesians 2:4-6 says, “God … hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Ephesians 1:3 also corroborates, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

How are we seated in heavenly places?

Because He is! Remember, we are in Him! We are one with Him! His life is our life. We are hidden in Him. He is our legal head!

· He lived on our behalf.
· He died on our behalf.
· He rose from the dead on our behalf.
· He reigns in heaven tonight on our behalf.

We are spiritually united to Him!

Jesus is described as “the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die” (John 6:50). When we partake of Him we partake of the heavenly realm. It is this that gives us our citizenship is in heaven. It is this the causes us to lay up our treasure in heaven. We are no longer earthlings, but heavenly creatures.

Philippians 3:20 tells us that “our citizenship is [now] in heaven.”

This proves: “we are not earthly beings having a heavenly experience, we are heavenly beings having an earthly experience.”

Hebrews 12:22 says (in the present tense), “ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.”

Heaven is a different world. It is governed by different rules. It is different priorities. Its focus is the glory of God. Righteousness is preeminent. Justice prevails. Order is its environment. Peace, joy and rest or what results.