22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Bible.

Sinners are still under the Law.

The only way out is to obey Acts 2:38.

The rest stay under the schoolmaster.

The Bible says otherwise? I was agreeing with what you said and asked who said otherwise? And you say "The Bible". So, now you're saying the Bible says otherwise from what you had said that I agreed with? You need to slow down and actually think about what you're saying because you are just contradicting yourself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He is coming 2 times.

Why?

Unfinished business.

Think about it.

Coming in the future 2 times? That is clearly false. I guess the angels that were there when He ascended didn't get that memo:

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Is there something in your Bible that says He would come in like manner as He left and then would also come some other time?

 

[Truther]

Wow. Your lack of discernment is truly unbelievable. Beloved enemies?!! Are you kidding me? God's enemies are not beloved. Have you never read Matthew 23? People like the Pharisees and scribes were God's enemies. Does it look to you like they were beloved when Jesus called them hypocrites and snakes? Come on. You're not even thinking.

It is the election that are beloved while the rest are enemies. All you needed to do in order to understand what Romans 11:28 is saying is to go back earlier in the chapter and read this:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

In Romans 11:28, "the election" which are "beloved" are the "remnant according to the election of grace" who are saved. It is "the rest" who "were blinded" that are the "enemies for your sakes" who "hath not obtained that which" they "seeketh for".

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


No, God is not kidding you.

 

[Truther]

Coming in the future 2 times? That is clearly false. I guess the angels that were there when He ascended didn't get that memo:

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Is there something in your Bible that says He would come in like manner as He left and then would also come some other time?

No, per OT prophecy. Typo

 

[Truther]

The Bible says otherwise? I was agreeing with what you said and asked who said otherwise? And you say "The Bible". So, now you're saying the Bible says otherwise from what you had said that I agreed with? You need to slow down and actually think about what you're saying because you are just contradicting yourself.

Is the Law done away for sinners?

 

[Truth7t7]

Included in this wonderful covenant to future national Israel?...

Your claim of "National Israel" is False

Only the remnant will be saved by God's forekowledge and election, National Israel is blinded

Romans 11:2-8KJV
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

 

[Truther]

Paul underlines in Romans 11:28: “As concerning the gospel, they (Christ-rejecting Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election (God’s people), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

There are 2 types of Jew in view here.

No one could argue that all natural Israelis are “enemies” as “concerning the gospel.” After all, many have gladly embraced Christ over this past 2,000 years, because of this they are intimately loved of the Father. They are not enemies of God, but rather friends. This fits Paul’s ongoing comparison between those who are loved by God amongst his kinsmen, and those who are enemies. These two distinct groups operate under two antithetical banners: “enemies” and “the election.” The enemies are the general Christ-rejecting populace of natural Israel. The election are the believers.

Scottish pastor Eric J Alexander very powerfully submits: “How can God reject the people whom He foreknew? You can no more imagine God saying those whom He foreknew He later rejected than you can imagine Him saying those whom He predestined He later rejected. These are unbreakable chains!” Basically, Paul is demonstrating that God doesn’t turn His back on His elect.

It is difficult to know, and foolish to speculate, too what amount of natural Jews in this day and at the end will come through for Christ. However, whether Scripture indicates the whole nation, the majority of natural Jews or a small remnant of natural Israelites will be saved is largely God’s prerogative. Notwithstanding, it is sufficient to settle upon the trust of the great chief Shepherd.

No, it speaks of one group of Jew in the sentence....


28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


This is why verse 29 says what it says.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


No, God is not kidding you.

Did you even read my post? Why did you not address what I said? I showed you from Romans 11:5-7 where Paul differentiated between "the election" (the remnant of Israel who were saved) and "the rest" of Israel who were not saved. He makes that same distinction in Romans 11:28. Are you afraid to address this? If not, then why are you not addressing it?

 

[Truther]

Your claim of "National Israel" is False

Only the remnant will be saved by God's forekowledge and election, National Israel is blinded

Romans 11:2-8KJV
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is the Law done away for sinners?

You always ask me questions before answering mine or addressing my points first. Why did you contradict yourself? Let's deal with that first. You made a statement. I agreed and asked who said otherwise. And then you said "The Bible". So, you basically said that the Bible says otherwise from what you had claimed. You contradicted yourself. Have you just lost your mind at this point?

 

[Truther]

He is coming to rescue His elect and He is coming to destroy the wicked. There is no time for your imaginary third covenant.

One covenant....

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


..unto THEM, gentile.

 

[Truther]

How can they be forgiven if their sin was not fully atoned for? You are blind to that. You deny the finished work. You deny the atoning blood of Jesus.

Jesus can save us but not future national Israel?

Were you a better, more saveable sinner than they are?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One covenant....

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


..unto THEM, gentile.

Yes, it says "unto them", but are you familiar with the rest of the New Testament which talks about us (Gentile believers) being fellowheirs with them? The covenant made unto them applies to Gentile believers as well. You can't lose sight of that when interpreting any given passage regarding God's promises and the new covenant.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

You should never read any given verse or passage in a vacuum without taking the rest of scripture into account. But, that is exactly what you do on a regular basis.

 

[Truther]

You always ask me questions before answering mine or addressing my points first. Why did you contradict yourself? Let's deal with that first. You made a statement. I agreed and asked who said otherwise. And then you said "The Bible". So, you basically said that the Bible says otherwise from what you had claimed. You contradicted yourself. Have you just lost your mind at this point?

The Law is not done away.

It is what sinners are under.

The only way to exit the Law is to obey Acts 2:38.

To stay out from under the Law after that, is to walk in the Spirit.

Fact.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus can save us but not future national Israel?

Were you a better, more saveable sinner than they are?

He saves anyone who puts their faith in trust in Him regardless of their nationality. Will He do more to lead people in Israel to salvation than for people of other nations? That's not possible since God is not a respecter of persons.

 

[Truther]

Yes, it says "unto them", but are you familiar with the rest of the New Testament which talks about us (Gentile believers) being fellowheirs with them? The covenant made unto them applies to Gentile believers as well. You can't lose sight of that when interpreting any given passage regarding God's promises and the new covenant.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

You should never read any given verse or passage in a vacuum without taking the rest of scripture into account. But, that is exactly what you do on a regular basis.

Good.

We are fellow heirs with them per their lone covenant found here....


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Law is not done away.

It is what sinners are under.

The only way to exit the Law is to obey Acts 2:38.

To stay out from under the Law after that, is to walk in the Spirit.

Fact.

When did I talk about this? I don't recall doing so. Are you trying to change the subject? You seem to not be able to think straight and stay focused on what is being discussed.

 

[Truther]

He saves anyone who puts their faith in trust in Him regardless of their nationality. Will He do more to lead people in Israel to salvation than for people of other nations? That's not possible since God is not a respecter of persons.

Awesome.

So He can save every future inhabitant of future national Israel at His return to keep His promise to the fathers.

Good man.

Glad you agree.

 

[Truther]

When did I talk about this? I don't recall doing so. Are you trying to change the subject? You seem to not be able to think straight and stay focused on what is being discussed.

I am baiting you.

Another thing related to eschatology you need to learn from Truther.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good.

We are fellow heirs with them per their lone covenant found here....


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Right. Glad we can agree on one thing, at least.