22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Randy Kluth

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You are describing yourself. See the dark evidence I posted above. It is horrendous. Like most Amils, I am weary of your religious nonsense. I am officially done with you. Bye bye. I will leave you to wallow in the muck of your bitterness. I am giving you no more credence by engaging with you. You love doing this. I do not. It grieves my spirit. If you apologize and repent, I will reengage.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out! Same with you--as I said, I'm not interested in all of your resentment you've built up and saved in the form of old posts. You bring back negative comments I made *in response to your insults!*

As I've said all along, God's love is the barometer as to whether we're walking in the Spirit and properly administering doctrine or not. Up to now, you seem to be completely without love, and I don't believe I've ever really seen it, except for those who agree with you on your Amill.

When you find love again, we can put aside all of the pettiness. But I'm not moved in my convictions and beliefs by insulting remarks. I'll listen, but am not interested in all of the unnecessary commentary.
 

jeffweeder

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Wow. All this was done in 69 weeks of 7 years + 7 days. What's the rest of the 70th week for if all is completed?

Do not be ridiculous Light. Try answering the question posed.

Before we continue in any reasonable dialogue, answer this simple straightforward question....,
Has atonement been achieved?
Has a death occurred bringing redemption?

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him
 
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dad

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He is talking about the temple being desolate from AD70 till the end of the world. You do not believe that. Also, the second coming is not the end to you. It is just a blip on the radar of history.
No, nothing like that.
There is no possibility of inserting 70 AD into that. There was no AntiChrist then, no seven year covenant, no tribulation etc etc.
But what does antichrist do to actually meet these demands? Basically, in what way does he:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?
Jesus does all this. Not all at once. He reconciled man to God. That was done when He was here and died for us. He did not bring in everlasting righteousness to the world yet. That has to wait till His kingdom comes and it is done on earth as it is in heaven. This tells us that the verse spans both comings of Jesus.

So, knowing this we can ask when that seven year covenant is and how it is broken midway. That happens just before His second coming to earth. (that does not count the Rapture when we go up to the air to meet Him there)

Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It is obvious what is determined and will be poured out in the end.

Maybe this translation will make it clear to you.

And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations {will come} one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

It should be obvious who this is talking about. Hint: not Jesus!
 

dad

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Yes; all the ungodly peoples will be killed before or at the glorious Return of Jesus.
But those who remain; Christian peoples, 1 Thess 4:17, will be gathered; Matthew 24:31, and will be with Jesus as He commences His earthly reign.

Any other beliefs about what will happen at the end of this age, are not scriptural and are false teaching.
I agree. However there may be more in the details than we think. For example will all people on earth at that time be truly ungodly and wicked? Will there be people or children that maybe were confused and victims of their governments? Personally I suspect there will be many people allowed in to the millennium that may not really have had a chance to understand the gospel. All the wicked leaders and those that fought against Israel and His saints etc obviously will be destroyed. There are still nations when we start to rule. You would have to make a pretty good bible case to convince me that all those nations were Christian only. Which Christians? We were raptured before the wrath. So it is certainly not us, we rule with Him. The saints from the last seven years? Would they not also help rule? It seems you have too many chiefs and not enough Indians.
 

dad

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Man, I went round and round on this for many, many years! And my positions changed now and again. In case you're interested I have a different view now--one that satisfies the things that always bothered me. Let me know.
Nothing bothered me, I guess I'm fortunate.
 

Randy Kluth

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Nothing bothered me, I guess I'm fortunate.

It's not fortunate to think yourself too wise to be fooled. ;)
I posted my beliefs anyway for your consideration. And I explained why certain things didn't make sense, if I was to be consistent.

I've been studying these things for at least 50 years, and I've *never* heard anybody say Dan 9 was "easy." ;)
 

The Light

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As expected, the dispensationally decapitated 70th week requires a crucifixion year of AD 33.

Here's Israel.

Genetically, the entirety of humanity.

Corroborated empirically by the Jewish community itself.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Demonstrated mathematically.

Example of ancestral genetic ubiquity:

Charlemagne’s DNA and Our Universal Royalty

BY CARL ZIMMER

Nobody in my past was hugely famous, at least that I know of. I vaguely recall that an ancestor of mine who shipped over on the Mayflower distinguished himself by falling out of the ship and having to get fished out of the water. He might be notable, I guess, but hardly famous. It is much more fun to think that I am a bloodline descendant of Charlemagne. And in 1999, Joseph Chang gave me permission to think that way.

Chang was not a genealogist who had decided to make me his personal project. Instead, he is a statistician at Yale who likes to think of genealogy as a mathematical problem. When you draw your genealogy, you make two lines from yourself back to each of your parents. Then you have to draw two lines for each of them, back to your four grandparents. And then eight great-grandparents, sixteen great-great-grandparents, and so on. But not so on for very long. If you go back to the time of Charlemagne, forty generations or so, you should get to a generation of a trillion ancestors. That’s about two thousand times more people than existed on Earth when Charlemagne was alive.

The only way out of this paradox is to assume that our ancestors are not independent of one another. That is, if you trace their ancestry back, you loop back to a common ancestor. We’re not talking about first-cousin stuff here–more like twentieth-cousin. This means that instead of drawing a tree that fans out exponentially, we need to draw a web-like tapestry.

In a paper he published in 1999 [pdf], Chang analyzed this tapestry mathematically. If you look at the ancestry of a living population of people, he concluded, you’ll eventually find a common ancestor of all of them. That’s not to say that a single mythical woman somehow produced every European by magically laying a clutch of eggs. All this means is that as you move back through time, sooner or later some of the lines in the genealogy will cross, meeting at a single person.

As you go back further in time, more of those lines cross as you encounter more common ancestors of the living population. And then something really interesting happens. There comes a point at which, Chang wrote, “all individuals who have any descendants among the present-day individuals are actually ancestors of all present-day individuals.”

In 2002, the journalist Steven Olson wrote an article in the Atlantic about Chang’s work. To put some empirical meat on the abstract bones of Chang’s research, Olson considered a group of real people–living Europeans.

The most recent common ancestor of every European today (except for recent immigrants to the Continent) was someone who lived in Europe in the surprisingly recent past—only about 600 years ago. In other words, all Europeans alive today have among their ancestors the same man or woman who lived around 1400. Before that date, according to Chang’s model, the number of ancestors common to all Europeans today increased, until, about a thousand years ago, a peculiar situation prevailed: 20 percent of the adult Europeans alive in 1000 would turn out to be the ancestors of no one living today (that is, they had no children or all their descendants eventually died childless); each of the remaining 80 percent would turn out to be a direct ancestor of every European living today.

Suddenly, my pedigree looked classier: I am a descendant of Charlemagne. Of course, so is every other European. By the way, I’m also a descendant of Nefertiti. And so are you, and everyone else on Earth today. Chang figured that out by expanding his model from living Europeans to living humans, and getting an estimate of 3400 years instead of a thousand for the all-ancestor generation.

Things have changed a lot in the fourteen years since Chang published his first paper on ancestry. Scientists have amassed huge databases of genetic information about people all over the world. These may not be the same thing as a complete genealogy of the human race, but geneticists can still use them to tackle some of the same questions that intrigued Chang.

Recently, two geneticists, Peter Ralph of the University of Southern California and Graham Coop of the University of California at Davis, decided to look at the ancestry of Europe. They took advantage of a compilation of information about 2257 people from across the continent. Scientists had examined half a million sites in each person’s DNA, creating a distinctive list of genetic markers for each of them.

You can use this kind of genetic information to make some genealogical inferences, but you have to know what you’re dealing with. Your DNA is not a carbon copy of your parents’. Each time they made eggs or sperm, they shuffled the two copies of each of their chromosomes and put one in the cell. Just as a new deck gets more scrambled the more times you shuffle it, chromosomes get more shuffled from one generation to the next.

This means that if you compare two people’s DNA, you will find some chunks that are identical in sequence. The more closely related people are, the bigger the chunks you’ll find. This diagram shows how two first cousins share a piece of DNA that’s identical by descent (IBD for short).

Ralph and Coop identified 1.9 million of these long shared segments of DNA shared by at least two people in their study. They then used the length of each segment to estimate how long ago it arose from a common ancestor of the living Europeans.

Their results, published today in PLOS Biology, both confirm Chang’s mathematical approach and enrich it. Even within the past thousand years, Ralph and Coop found, people on opposite sides of the continent share a lot of segments in common–so many, in fact, that it’s statistically impossible for them to have gotten them all from a single ancestor. Instead, someone in Turkey and someone in England have to share a lot of ancestors. In fact, as Chang suspected, the only way to explain the DNA is to conclude that everyone who lived a thousand years ago who has any descendants today is an ancestor of every European. Charlemagne for everyone!

If you compare two people in Turkey, you’ll find bigger shared segments of DNA, which isn’t surprising. Since they live in the same country, chances are they have more recent ancestors, and more of them. But there is a rich, intriguing pattern to the number of shared segments among Europeans. People across Eastern Europe, for example, have a larger set of shared segments than people from within single countries in Western Europe. That difference may be the signature of a big expansion of the Slavs.

Ralph and Coop’s study may provide a new tool for reconstructing the history of humans on every continent, not just Europe. It will also probably keep people puzzling over the complexities of genealogy.


How does God distinguish genetic Jews from genetic Jews?

It matters not one whit.

Because God has only two covenant criteria.

Two spiritual genes.

Faith and obedience.

Abraham's Spiritual DNA.

And nothing else.
I'll try to remember to get back to what you have written, but I am stepping out for the evening. I haven't read what you have written, but can only chuckle as to how upset the truth get's you. I know it's a little tough on you because your teacher is being destroyed by the Word of God. Can't hide from the facts, can't hide from the truth.
 

dad

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Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week...

Matthew 26:28 NASB
for this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Now you want to grasp at straws of how words are used more than once for different things in the bible?

You cab rule out the covenant God made with Abraham and others and this verse as well as being the covenant in the end that lasts seven years and is broken in the midst. His covenant is never broken!
Quote the NT Scripture in which antichrist confirms a covenant with many.


Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) completion, termination, full end, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

Describes exactly the fate of Israel in 70 AD.

Where was a seven year agreement broken three and a half years after it was made in 70AD? The language of complete destruction being poured out on the wicked ending in complete destruction and the abomination making desolate etc only fits one time.
 

dad

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It's not fortunate to think yourself too wise to be fooled. ;)
I posted my beliefs anyway for your consideration. And I explained why certain things didn't make sense, if I was to be consistent.

I've been studying these things for at least 50 years, and I've *never* heard anybody say Dan 9 was "easy." ;)
So what is the summary of your position?
 

WPM

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No, nothing like that.
There is no possibility of inserting 70 AD into that. There was no AntiChrist then, no seven year covenant, no tribulation etc etc.

Jesus does all this. Not all at once. He reconciled man to God. That was done when He was here and died for us. He did not bring in everlasting righteousness to the world yet. That has to wait till His kingdom comes and it is done on earth as it is in heaven. This tells us that the verse spans both comings of Jesus.

So, knowing this we can ask when that seven year covenant is and how it is broken midway. That happens just before His second coming to earth. (that does not count the Rapture when we go up to the air to meet Him there)

Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It is obvious what is determined and will be poured out in the end.

Maybe this translation will make it clear to you.

And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations {will come} one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

It should be obvious who this is talking about. Hint: not Jesus!

Daniel 9:24-27: “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint (mashach) the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (mashiyach nagiyd) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah (mashiyach) be cut off, but not for himself, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

We are not merely looking at some “anointed” servant of God, but the “anointed Prince" (mashiyach nagiyd). This was speaking about the promised One that Israel was looking for. The One that would deliver them, redeem them and set them free.

The Hebrew word mashach (Strong’s 4886) in v 24 refers to an act: to rub with oil, i.e. to anoint; by implication, to consecrate; also to paint. There are 69 references to this the Old Testament. The Hebrew mashiyach (Strong’s 4899) in v25 & 26 is derived from this word but refers to the one on the receiving end of the act. The word means anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically, the Messiah. There are 39 references to this the Old Testament.

In texts like Daniel 9 that have been so tore apart and distorted by man’s opinions and theological partialities it might actually be wise to ask a basic question: ‘what is God actually saying here?’ There is so much that is inserted into this text as fact that is not to be found anywhere in the passage (or anywhere else in Scripture) that it is needful for us to step back and let the Bible speak for itself.

What is this Daniel 9 speaking of? What is the focus here?

“Messiah” (“Messiah the Prince”) and His mammoth mission to deliver Israel is unquestionably the focus here. There is no mention of antichrist as many would have us believe. This text is focused in on the coming of Messiah. But which Coming? Well Messiah had not yet come when this vision was given. His appearing was anticipated by God’s Old Testament people. In this passage the angel Gabriel was delineating the time scale of this momentous event.

Right from Genesis to Revelation the prime focus of Scripture is Christ - the Messiah - not Israel. I think you are falling into the same trap Dispies do, Israel becomes the focus instead of Messiah. The dates fit well from the many scholarly books I have read - with historians that are a lot smarter than me (and maybe you). I am not an expert on calendars, but they are.
 
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covenantee

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I'll try to remember to get back to what you have written, but I am stepping out for the evening. I haven't read what you have written, but can only chuckle as to how upset the truth get's you. I know it's a little tough on you because your teacher is being destroyed by the Word of God. Can't hide from the facts, can't hide from the truth.

I know of no one upset or destroyed over here. Are you feeling upset or destroyed?

Feel free to attempt to disprove anything I've presented.
 
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Randy Kluth

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So what is the summary of your position?

Daniel was praying about the restoration of temple worship and the restoration of Israel. So God gave him a vision of the future of the earthly temple, indicating it would be recovered, but would once again, be destroyed by "the people of the ruler to come," ie the Roman Army.

But the whole prophecy is messianic, listing 6 things Messiah would do, summing up Israel's history at the 1st Coming of Christ. It would lead, as I said, to the temple's destruction and to the cutting off of Messiah by the Romans.

The difficulty I always had was with the pronouns that followed the "people of the ruler to come." This was plainly the Roman army, as Jesus also seemed to indicate in Luke 21. This was, I believe, the Abomination of Desolation, that both Matthew and Mark referred to.

It would lead to an age of devastation for Israel, until the end comes upon the Roman system. The difficulty was in figuring out how the Roman General who was leading this Roman Army made a covenant in the 70th Week of this 70 Week prophecy? And how did he end sacrifice and offering?

Well, we know that Rome destroyed the temple. But it was in crucifying Christ that the Romans actually ended sacrifice under the Law. It was at Christ's crucifixion that the veil of the temple was rent, nullifying all future sacrifices. And Rome did this in cooperation with Judaism, indicating that this 70th Week was marked by a joint effort between Rome and the Jews to end Christ.

Anyway, that's the best I can see it. I'm not dogmatic. But obviously, over several decades I've had plenty of time to think about it! ;) Take care...
 

covenantee

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Now you want to grasp at straws of how words are used more than once for different things in the bible?

Explain how covenant and covenant are different things.
Explain how many and many are different things.
Explain why you're unable to find antichrist confirming a covenant with many in the New Testament.

You cab rule out the covenant God made with Abraham and others and this verse as well as being the covenant in the end that lasts seven years and is broken in the midst. His covenant is never broken!

I'm unable to decrypt what you're talking about. You'll need to express yourself more clearly.

Where was a seven year agreement broken three and a half years after it was made in 70AD?

There is no agreement broken anywhere. There is exclusively a covenant confirmed in the Blood of Messiah the Prince.

The language of complete destruction being poured out on the wicked ending in complete destruction and the abomination making desolate etc only fits one time.

Yes. Israel by 70 AD.
 
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Marilyn C

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Since abandoning Premillennialism I have engaged in many debates/discussions on the matter of the second coming, end-times and the here-after. These are some of the major weaknesses I find in the Premillennialism doctrine, and are strong reasons why I believe the dogma should be rejected.

I want to list some of the issues that forced me to eventually abandon Premillennialism and embrace Amillennialism. My main reason for abandoning Premil was the severe lack of corroboration. I had a major issue with that! What is more: I had multiple problem-texts as a Premil that showed the coming of Christ to be climactic and all-consummating. I have presented a lot of these questions in discussions over the years (since 2000) on boards like this and have failed to get any satisfactory corroboration for these questions. What I normally get is either blatant avoidance of the issues or "Revelation 20 says." This is so frustrating because Revelation 20 does not corroborate Revelation 20. Amils on the other hand tend to use the biblical premise "what saith the Scripture." The only conclusion I could arrive at is that the Premil interpretation of Revelation 20 is in error, it conflicts with numerous Scripture, and enjoys NO other serious scriptural support.

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and very much disagree with this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.

Hi WPM,

You seem to not understand the eternal Purposes of God. They are for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations.

Why did God make the many nations of the earth and have them populate the new earth? (Rev. 21: 24)

Why did God make the earthly nation of Israel and promise them that they would rule the world under their Messiah? ((Dan. 7: 26 & 27, Joel 3: 2, Micah 4: 1 - 3, Ez. 17: 22)

Why did God make a heavenly nation and promise them that they would rule with Him in the highest? (Rev. 3: 21)

WHY? So that the Lord Jesus Christ is Supreme ruler over all and through all. (Col. 1: 16- 18)

Marilyn.
 
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Truth7t7

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The cross!

He poured out the desolation in AD70, and it remain so until the second coming.
Thanks for both responses, I strongly disagree

(1.) Daniel 9:27 The "Consummation" wasn't fulfilled at the cross of Calvary as you claim, it will be seen in the second coming and last day Judgement by fire as seen in 2 Peter 3:10 (The Consummation) or (Ultimate End)

(2.) Daniel 9:27 That being poured upon the desolate is the Lords future (Cup Of Wrath) that will be poured out upon the wicked at the Lord's second coming (The Consummation, The Ultimate End)

Your 2,000 year claim of an ongoing "Pouring Upon The Desolate" is comparable to those claiming a 1,000 year long day of the Lord, or a 2,000 year floating 70th week of Daniel, "Forcing" something into scripture not seen

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(The Future Consummation, The Ultimate End)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

(The Future Cup Of God's Wrath, That Will Be Poured Upon The Desolate)

Revelation 14:10KJV
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
 
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WPM

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Hi WPM,

You seem to not understand the eternal Purposes of God. They are for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations.

Why did God make the many nations of the earth and have them populate the new earth? (Rev. 21: 24)

Why did God make the earthly nation of Israel and promise them that they would rule the world under their Messiah? ((Dan. 7: 26 & 27, Joel 3: 2, Micah 4: 1 - 3, Ez. 17: 22)

Why did God make a heavenly nation and promise them that they would rule with Him in the highest? (Rev. 3: 21)

WHY? So that the Lord Jesus Christ is Supreme ruler over all and through all. (Col. 1: 16- 18)

Marilyn.

Are you saying there are three peoples of God?
 

dad

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We are not merely looking at some “anointed” servant of God, but the “anointed Prince" (mashiyach nagiyd). This was speaking about the promised One that Israel was looking for. The One that would deliver them, redeem them and set them free.
Why are you telling me this? Obviously Jesus is the Messiah.

What is this Daniel 9 speaking of? What is the focus here?

“Messiah” (“Messiah the Prince”) and His mammoth mission to deliver Israel is unquestionably the focus here. There is no mention of antichrist as many would have us believe.
Except that is rubbish, of course there is. Jesus made no covenant for seven years and broke it. Jesus will not come except that man of sin be revealed first.

This text is focused in on the coming of Messiah. But which Coming?
The first coming. The years pointed exactly to the life of Jesus. No mystery there.
Well Messiah had not yet come when this vision was given. His appearing was anticipated by God’s Old Testament people. In this passage the angel Gabriel was delineating the time scale of this momentous event.
The first number of years is about His first coming obviously.

Daniel 9:26

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off
I think you are falling into the same trap Dispies do, Israel becomes the focus instead of Messiah.

No, all must be completed before He returns including the man of sin and the covenant broken, abomination of desolation etc. That has to happen before the final consummation or destruction.


The dates fit well from the many scholarly books I have read - with historians that are a lot smarter than me (and maybe you). I am not an expert on calendars, but they are.

What dates? Are you talking about the years till Jesus came and was cut off?
 

dad

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The difficulty I always had was with the pronouns that followed the "people of the ruler to come." This was plainly the Roman army, as Jesus also seemed to indicate in Luke 21. This was, I believe, the Abomination of Desolation, that both Matthew and Mark referred to.
The abomination is placed by the ruler in the last seven years. No relation to 70AD. Since the final government is the new Roman empire (ten toes) consisting of the same areas the old one had largely, we would say that the armies that came in 70AD were the people of the prince. One reason is that they were of the Roman Empire. Another reason I would think is that the prince of darkness, Satan, will be possessing the final king and ruling through him, just as he also ruled Rome through people! That same prince is the one who sent his people to destroy Jerusalem. So they were Satan's peeps!
It would lead to an age of devastation for Israel, until the end comes upon the Roman system. The difficulty was in figuring out how the Roman General who was leading this Roman Army made a covenant in the 70th Week of this 70 Week prophecy? And how did he end sacrifice and offering?
That would require some mind bending twisting of the bible.
Well, we know that Rome destroyed the temple. But it was in crucifying Christ that the Romans actually ended sacrifice under the Law. It was at Christ's crucifixion that the veil of the temple was rent, nullifying all future sacrifices. And Rome did this in cooperation with Judaism, indicating that this 70th Week was marked by a joint effort between Rome and the Jews to end Christ.
Sorry, that doesn't work. The sacrifice in Dan 9 is taken away specifically in the middle of that last week or seven years. That week is not part of the time Jesus was here. It is a week at the end of time. A week when Satan the prince rules earth through the evil leader.
 

WPM

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Why are you telling me this? Obviously Jesus is the Messiah.

Except that is rubbish, of course there is. Jesus made no covenant for seven years and broke it. Jesus will not come except that man of sin be revealed first.

The first coming. The years pointed exactly to the life of Jesus. No mystery there.

The first number of years is about His first coming obviously.

Daniel 9:26

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off


No, all must be completed before He returns including the man of sin and the covenant broken, abomination of desolation etc. That has to happen before the final consummation or destruction.




What dates? Are you talking about the years till Jesus came and was cut off?

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?
 
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