22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[covenantee]

I don't know. I guess his calculation is in error, which proves that I am not following what is taught by Bro Anderson. If I were to speculate, I would say that he forgot there is no year zero. The years go from 1 BC to 1 AD, but as I said, that is only my speculation.

What year BC did Herod begin building the temple?

 

[jeffweeder]

Thanks bro! It is impossible to get Dispys to answer this.

I wish every question was that easy. Is there any other way to answer those questions? Kindergarten stuff, breast milk.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not interested. Your lack of Christian love is noted.

Please do not lecture anyone here or in the real world about love or godly language. Here is a little of your venom towards Amils:

Maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong people? ;) I stand by all of my statements because they're true. And although they're true, that you're a very carnal Christian, who makes me wonder if he isn't in some kind of false Christian cult, I keep trying to reach out in fellowship.

While you call me bitter, it's you who I see as a very bitter person, who's trying to make a name for himself without the inspiration of God's love behind him. And you know that counts for nothing if it doesn't have love in it.

I will lecture you whenever I feel God wants me to. You're not the Holy Spirit--I wonder if you even hear God? You are crazy angry whenever anybody gets riled by your insulting dogmatic claims that you know the bible and everybody else has "nothing."

Have a nice life. But stay out of mine.

 

[WPM]

Maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong people? ;)

You must be. This is horrendous. It is totally unacceptable and unChristian. This all starts with a change of heart.

 

[WPM]

I wish every question was that easy. Is there any other way to answer those questions? Kindergarten stuff, breast milk.

You are spot on!

 

[Randy Kluth]

In the words of Larry Norman: Without love you aint nothing without love. A person can easily show love to their friends. But a person's true love from God is shown in how he treats his enemies. It doesn't tolerate sin, but it is quick to forgive.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You must be. This is horrendous. It is totally unacceptable and unChristian. This all starts with a change of heart.

You don't have an ounce of love in you. You just argue Amill. Not only is that boring, it's not Christ-like. I can't imagine that anybody thinks you're a good Christian, who lives and loves like Christ himself!

But by all means, start with a change of heart. I've done all the reaching out to you I'm willing to do.

 

[WPM]

In the words of Larry Norman: Without love you aint nothing without love. A person can easily show love to their friends. But a person's true love from God is shown in how he treats his enemies. It doesn't tolerate sin, but it is quick to forgive.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees who were full of pride, hypocritical, holier than thou, and always hurling false accusations.

So, are you going to apologize for all this vicious ad hominem? Are you going to retract all these lies, accusations, and slander? Here is another false accusation you keep hurling:

You just seem to lay these things on the shelf when discussing your idol, Amillennialism.

Amil is his idol, put quite simply. Yes, that's my opinion

Why else would you make this an idol?

You can sometimes tell that someone is off track and not aligned with the word of God. Their rage is evidence of that fact. Their obsessive idolization of their doctrines indicate that somewhere along the way they've gotten off track, gotten lost, and now find themselves groping in the dark

You try to create carnal divisions in the church to preserve your idol, Amil?

 

[Truth7t7]

He is talking about the temple being desolate from AD70 till the end of the world. You do not believe that. Also, the second coming is not the end to you. It is just a blip on the radar of history.

But what does antichrist do to actually meet these demands? Basically, in what way does he:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

1.) WPM when did or will the consummation take place in Daniel 9:27?

2.) WPM when did or will the pouring upon the desolation take place in Daniel 9:27?

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[WPM]

1.) WPM when did or will the consummation take place in Daniel 9:27?

2.) WPM when did or will the pouring upon the desolation take place in Daniel 9:27?

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

He poured out the desolation in AD70, and it remain so until the second coming.

 

[Truth7t7]

It's a simple yes or no question: do you or does he believe that Jesus is literally coming back to the earth to live upon the earth? Is God, in the form of His Son, going to live here on this earth for all eternity, or not?

Your answer is in my direct response "No" that you are well aware of in my postings, and it's not "heresy" as your slander claims, to deny a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Jesus Christ returns and "Dissolves" this earth by fire, as you have been told 100 times over the past year, he doesn't live here on earth in a Millennial Kingdom as many falsely believe and teach

Once again and again, very simple and easy to understand, it's not changing, and yes your accusations were false and slanderous regarding my belief in the second coming and final judgement

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

 

[The Light]

1. Jesus hanging on the cross
2. Jesus hanging on the cross
3. Jesus hanging on the cross
4. What Jesus did on the cross ...for us.
5. Jesus own testimony and life
6. Jesus risen life from our death sentence, anointed the Holy of Holies forevermore for us.

Wow. All this was done in 69 weeks of 7 years + 7 days. What's the rest of the 70th week for if all is completed?

 

[jeffweeder]

Maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong people? ;) I stand by all of my statements because they're true. And although they're true, that you're a very carnal Christian, who makes me wonder if he isn't in some kind of false Christian cult, I keep trying to reach out in fellowship.

While you call me bitter, it's you who I see as a very bitter person, who's trying to make a name for himself without the inspiration of God's love behind him. And you know that counts for nothing if it doesn't have love in it.

I will lecture you whenever I feel God wants me to. You're not the Holy Spirit--I wonder if you even hear God? You are crazy angry whenever anybody gets riled by your insulting dogmatic claims that you know the bible and everybody else has "nothing."

Have a nice life. But stay out of mine.

No Randy,
You are not hanging out with the wrong people brother. We love you and the truth is always going to hurt.
WPM is your best friend IMHO; he is honest as the day is long. Please Brother be careful what you say as some have entertained Angels without knowing it. I may be wrong, but I do not think I am. I am certain he is your Brother in Christ first and foremost.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees who were full of pride, hypocritical, holier than thou, and always hurling false accusations.

So, are you going to apologize for all this vicious ad hominem? Are you going to retract all these lies, accusations, and slander? Here is another false accusation you keep hurling

No, I'm honestly concerned for the state of your soul. You sound like an interesting, educated person. But you're obviously in the thralls of bitterness, because not only do you accuse others of that, projecting, you are always angry when challenged. That is not a mark of a godly man.

So my intent is not to bring you under condemnation, but to make a desperate attempt to change something that has been deeply rooted in your life. I've seen you do this for *years!* You not only state your convictions, which are fine, but you state them so dogmatically that you separate yourself from anybody who disagrees with you. And you burn any bridges.

You do have a way of insulting others, by constantly telling them they have "nothing." You're like a broken record. Over and over. You save up items to bring back to justify your resentment.

Get rid of it. The way up is down. Humble yourself, and God will exalt you. If you exalt yourself, you will be humbled.

 

[The Light]

I'm following the pronouns consistently in the way they make sense to me. The "people of the ruler to come" seems obvious, because they are the ones who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. So, to be consistent, the following pronouns would refer to him, the covenant with the Jews ultimately putting Jesus to death and preventing his Kingdom from being established.

And Jesus made clear in Luke 21 that it was the Roman Army which surrounded Jerusalem and led to Israel's dispersion, which is to last throughout the age. It makes sense to me that Daniel is here treating the temple, as a subject, and is led to describe the work of Messiah, along with the destruction of a rebuilt temple of Herod.

The people of the ruler to come is not talking about the Romans. In fact it is not talking about Herods Temple. The Temple that is destroyed in Daniel 9 has not been built yet. The people of the ruler to come is the people of the rider on the white horse who is a king of the North and "AN" Antichrist and the 7th king. He will give his power to "THE" Antichrist, the eighth king who is of the seven.

 

[WPM]

No, I'm honestly concerned for the state of your soul. You sound like an interesting, educated person. But you're obviously in the thralls of bitterness, because not only do you accuse others of that, projecting, you are always angry when challenged. That is not a mark of a godly man.

So my intent is not to bring you under condemnation, but to make a desperate attempt to change something that has been deeply rooted in your life. I've seen you do this for *years!* You not only state your convictions, which are fine, but you state them so dogmatically that you separate yourself from anybody who disagrees with you. And you burn any bridges.

You do have a way of insulting others, by constantly telling them they have "nothing." You're like a broken record. Over and over. You save up items to bring back to justify your resentment.

Get rid of it. The way up is down. Humble yourself, and God will exalt you. If you exalt yourself, you will be humbled.

You are describing yourself. See the evidence I posted above. It is horrendous. I am weary of your religious nonsense. I am officially done with you. Bye bye. I will leave you to wallow in the muck of your bitterness. I am giving you no more credence by engaging with you. You love doing this. I do not. It grieves my spirit. If you apologize and repent, I will reengage. I sincerely hope you find peace with God. I wish you no ill.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so! It happens when Jesus comes as a thief in the night.

And? So? How does this contradict what I said? It doesn't.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No Randy,
You are not hanging out with the wrong people brother. We love you and the truth is always going to hurt.
WPM is your best friend IMHO; he is honest as the day is long. Please Brother be careful what you say as some have entertained Angels without knowing it. I may be wrong, but I do not think I am. I am certain he is your Brother in Christ first and foremost.

I appreciate that Jeff. I can see that you have love. I've been seriously considering leaving the forums after 20 years! Ouch--am I that old? And although we disagree on a few subjects, I see comradery in you, despite the disagreements. This is true brotherly love, true Christianity.

But I *ASSURE YOU* something is wrong with your brother WPM. Don't confuse knowledge with love--two very different things. I have never seen WPM show love for those who disagree with him, except perhaps on the smallest of issues.

As for me, I know what this means. For 50 years I've been going to Pretribulational churches when I'm strongly Postribulational! The pastors tell me they'd like to discuss it with me, and then they don't answer their phone, don't call me, and ignore me in church. I can tell they don't really want to talk about it because their denomination requires that they adhere to a certain doctrine. ;)

So we do have to learn about brotherliness in the midst of disagreements. The hope, of course, is that we come to agreement. But that means someone will have to drop their pride, because we can't all be right.

I have little pride left, brother. I've been wrong more times than I can count on some of these issues. And that's just called "growing pains." No, my prayers are with WPM, but no, he is disrespectful and actually causes most of the negative comments I've made towards him, particularly when he responds to my friendly overtures with yet another, "you have nothing." That is positively disrespectful.

One time he apologized, and I respected him for it. But I suppose some good things just can't last. I can't imagine why you think he's a "saint?" He cultivates followers--I know the type, and yes--I have a gift of discernment. One cannot lie to God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are avoiding the obvious again. We are not talking about any other lens apart from the biblical lens. You seem to struggle with that.

Examples would be helpful.

 

[Truth7t7]

He poured out the desolation in AD70, and it remain so until the second coming.

Thanks for the response to question #2 please respond to #1 below thanks

1.) WPM when did or will the consummation take place in Daniel 9:27?