Universal Salvation

[Nancy]

Nancy, do you believe that the old testament was a type for the New Testament? In other words consider the Temple, it had a Holy Place and a Most Holy Place. the only way you could to the Most Holy Place was to go through the Holy Place. This is similar in type in the New Testament as to how the only way to the Father is through the Son. If you believe this way, then where do you see the Levites being a type of under the New Testament?

Actually, only the High Priest was allowed into the Most Holy Place.
And, of course I believe that Jesus ushered in a New Covenant and when the curtain rent, He made it so we can approach Gods throne boldly.
It would be nice if you would quote where I said that the "Levites" were a "type"?

 

[Nancy]

God is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our salvation. Wouldn't you agree?

What does it mean that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith then?

My bible say's He is the author and finisher of our faith!

"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil. 1:6

Yes, He continues the good work that He started in us which, IMHO, is salvation being worked out of us as we are to work out our own salvation:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Phil. 2:12

 

[Helen]

And I also might add that yes, we could not convince Christ to be a sacrifice for us. He chose to die for us. He chose to be beaten and crucified...killed for us.

So if God in bodily form would choose to do this for us, would He also choose to allow people to choose Hell over Him? Why or why not?

All of this only makes sense to us if we believe in a free will within His will. ( Like a child free to do what he wants within the confines of the safely of the fenced garden)

It is not just a case of "heaven or hell"...we choose every day where we will be in God at the end. Close to Him or farthest away.
I dont like Rick Joyner much , but I did like what he mentioned in his vision in his book The Final Quest... As the angel led him into the back 40 of heaven he stopped and spoke to the crowed there..he said something like - " Who are you, and why are you standing here.?" They answered - " Sadly , we are the foolish - virgins...we can hear His voice but we can't see His face."
Would that not be punishment and a cause of a wailing and gnashing of teeth? :)
NOT that we build doctrines on this kind of thing! LOL

We are free to choose here and now just how much we desire Him.
It will be proved to us how real our commitment has bee... when we are in the kingdom. We can believe it or not...but from Gen - Rev the pattern is there. ♥︎

blessings...H

 

[Pneuma]

Actually, only the High Priest was allowed into the Most Holy Place.
And, of course I believe that Jesus ushered in a New Covenant and when the curtain rent, He made it so we can approach Gods throne boldly.
It would be nice if you would quote where I said that the "Levites" were a "type"?

I don't think I said you believed they were a type - I probably had hoped you did because they are. The Levites are a type just as the Physical Temple was a type. The Levites had to first be called in order to atone for the rest of the congregation of Israel. Today the people that God has opened the door to Grace is everyone. So of course in this current dispensation, those chosen now will be the PRIESTs that administer with Jesus to the rest at His Coming in atoning for their sins.

 

[Pneuma]

What does it mean that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith then?

My bible say's He is the author and finisher of our faith!

"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil. 1:6

Yes, He continues the good work that He started in us which, IMHO, is salvation being worked out of us as we are to work out our own salvation:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Phil. 2:12

The point is that it is all Christ, from beginning to end. So if it is all Christ from beginning to end and He owns all the good works we do, then the Lord is also responsible for those that don't receive that work from beginning to end.

 

[Nancy]

The point is that it is all Christ, from beginning to end. So if it is all Christ from beginning to end and He owns all the good works we do, then the Lord is also responsible for those that don't receive that work from beginning to end.

"So if it is all Christ from beginning to end and He owns all the good works we do, then the Lord is also responsible for those that don't receive that work from beginning to end."

Wouldn't it be the person who does not "receive" His gift that is responsible?

He offers and we either receive or not, "choose this day...". Unless you are a proponent of T.U.L.I.P.

 

[Mayflower]

No I believe in Free Will. I believe in it almost exactly as in St. Augustine's "On Grace and Free Will" writing.

CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)

Here are some chapters:

Chapter 41 [XX.]— The Wills of Men are So Much in the Power of God, that He Can Turn Them Whithersoever It Pleases Him.
Chapter 42 [XXI]— God Does Whatsoever He Wills in the Hearts of Even Wicked Men.
Chapter 43.— God Operates on Men's Hearts to Incline Their Wills Whithersoever He Pleases.

Also, here is a better version of that verse in Matthew:

Mat 7:13 'Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide is the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it;

I had to do a report on St. Augustine in highschool and he has been my favorite philosopher since. Learned a lot from the book Sophia's World

 

[Pneuma]

"So if it is all Christ from beginning to end and He owns all the good works we do, then the Lord is also responsible for those that don't receive that work from beginning to end."

Wouldn't it be the person who does not "receive" His gift that is responsible?

He offers and we either receive or not, "choose this day...". Unless you are a proponent of T.U.L.I.P.

God is responsible. That is what Roman's 9 is about:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

We are held accountable though because our Conscience bears witness that we chose to sin.

I'm not sure what T.U.L.I.P is.

 

[Stumpmaster]

If no one can pay for their sins then what good was the Parable of the Unforgiving servant?

Mat 18:34 'And having been wroth, his lord delivered him to the inquisitors, till he might pay all that was owing to him;
Mat 18:35 so also my heavenly Father will do to you, if ye may not forgive each one his brother from your hearts their trespasses.'

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant teaches us there are consequences for our actions, but Christ's death in our place purchased our forgiveness and His shed blood cleanses us from all sin, so legally we have no debt to pay.
Quote from Believers Commentary on Matthew 18:35: The application is clear. God is the King. All His servants had contracted a great debt of sin which they were unable to pay. In wonderful grace and compassion, the Lord paid the debt and granted full and free forgiveness. Now suppose some Christian wrongs another. When rebuked, he apologizes and asks forgiveness. But the offended believer refuses. He himself has been forgiven millions of dollars, but won't forgive a few hundred. Will the King allow such behavior to go unpunished? Certainly not! The culprit will be chastened in this life and will suffer loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

On Judgment Day Christians are not judged for their sin but for their works, and of course doing God's Will is subject to this. Only unbelievers are judged for their sin, and their works cannot save them, so Universalism is false.
Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[aspen]

i think it is good to pray for everyone's salvation

 

[Brakelite]

Some little god's followers have the idea that there is spiritual authority on earth these powers have. Unfortunately this sounds like demon inspired power ideas which exalt them as if they are significant.

So many see demons torturing people, again exalting their role and importance. I think propoganda dept. for satan is never quiet, lol

they have power over their own... Limited power over those whom God is calling. Yes, I have witnessed demon possession. But I don't know of any scripture that says anyone or anything in heavenly places, much less heaven itself, is an enemy.

 

[Pneuma]

Hi Everyone. It has been a good conversation but I have decided to move on to another forum. I hope you all study the subject and I appreciate the discussion. I know I will eventually meet everyone on good terms no less, so my hope for you all is to set your sights on His everlasting Grace.

 

[Mayflower]

Hi Everyone. It has been a good conversation but I have decided to move on to another forum. I hope you all study the subject and I appreciate the discussion. I know I will eventually meet everyone on good terms no less, so my hope for you all is to set your sights on His everlasting Grace.

Ah, well feel free to stick around in the fellowship threads if the debate is too much. It can get pretty heated I believe, but thanks for the questions. I love discussion like that.

 

[FollowHim]

they have power over their own... Limited power over those whom God is calling. Yes, I have witnessed demon possession. But I don't know of any scripture that says anyone or anything in heavenly places, much less heaven itself, is an enemy.

12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Eph 6:12

3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
2 Cor 10

It is clear that evil does not only exist on earth.

 

[theefaith]

So here is a verse that shows that God will save all:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Lk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.