Universal Salvation

[amadeus]

That's not the best question here.
I'm not Scoot, but for me, God doesn't force/manipulate others to "get what he wants". Rather, He acknowledges each person's free will and that love must be freely given.

God wants each of us to really love Him and follow Him when He has allowed the existence of another seemingly attractive alternative. The attractiveness is a deception, but many and perhaps most are blind to it.

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess. 2:10-11

 

[Pneuma]

That's not the best question here.
I'm not Scoot, but for me, God doesn't force/manipulate others to "get what he wants". Rather, He acknowledges each person's free will and that love must be freely given.

Actually He gets your will to do His will. I would suggest you read "On Grace and Free Will" by "Saint" Augustine of Hippo. It is an excellent piece. Consider these chapter titles:

Chapter 41 [XX.]— The Wills of Men are So Much in the Power of God, that He Can Turn Them Whithersoever It Pleases Him.

Chapter 42 [XXI]— God Does Whatsoever He Wills in the Hearts of Even Wicked Men.

Chapter 43.— God Operates on Men's Hearts to Incline Their Wills Whithersoever He Pleases.

 

[Pneuma]

God wants each of us to really love Him and follow Him when He has allowed the existence of another seemingly attractive alternative. The attractiveness is a deception, but many and perhaps most are blind to it.

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess. 2:10-11

Remember we don't choose God, He chooses us.

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

[Pneuma]

If you are promoting Universalism, you are promoting a false teaching and a false Gospel. Which would mean that you are against the true Gospel.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)

Hi Enoch, I used to be an adherent of Eternal Torment and then an annihilationist and now believe in Universal Salvation. Being Damned means you must pay for your sins.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Actually He gets your will to do His will.

That's called manipulation and force.
Sorry, I don't worship a God who's into that.
Love is freely given. Not forced, not manipulated, or in any way enslaved.

 

[amadeus]

Remember we don't choose God, He chooses us.

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

He chose to call many, but not many chose to answer of those who did choose to answer not many are to be faithful to the end of their course!

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:14

"...and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Rev 17:14

 

[Pneuma]

That's called manipulation and force.
Sorry, I don't worship a God who's into that.
Love is freely given. Not forced, not manipulated, or in any way enslaved.

What about a God that cannot fail to persuade you?

 

[Pneuma]

He chose to call many, but not many chose to answer of those who did choose to answer not many are to be faithful to the end of their course!

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:14

"...and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Rev 17:14

Yes, few are chosen because those chosen are to be Kings and Priests that reign with Him? So who do you think they are priest to? - The rest of mankind.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What about a God that cannot fail to persuade you?

Free will is free.
Not manipulated.

And with that... I try really hard to be respectful of other people's beliefs. But this is one I frequently fail in that regard. So I don't see much point in beating what's a dead horse.

 

[DNB]

Ask yourself these questions:

The questions are there to stimulate your thoughts on this subject.

God will have all to be saved in due time such that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. And nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

I would think pneuma, if you're attempting to espouse Universalism, you would need more than 3 rather disparate verses of Scripture, and 8 equivocal philosophical statements ? You are aware of the controversy at hand, are you? Of all the verses that support judgement and eternal hell fire. I'm not even, at this point, saying that you're wrong, but you need to do a much more comprehensive and balanced exposition if you want to competently broach this subject matter. Not necessarily exhaustively, but at least address the fundamental issues at hand.
All Jesus' statements of eternal hell fire.
All the allusions to the sheep and goats, and consequences of sin, by almost every author in the Bible.
White throne Judgement and Lake of Fire.
The imprisonment, suffering and martyrdoms of countless saints. Not just possibly the misguided ones, but the inspired apostles, prophets and disciples of the both Testaments. (Hebrews 11:37)
Satan and his cohorts, and those humans that are his children. (John 8:44)
...

1.) Does God desire all to be saved? - yes, but in that he does all that He can to promote salvation, and not deny anyone the offer.
2.) Can God fail? - No, but he allows men to fail, and not fulfill His desires. He destroyed the world once already, and had to close Eden.
3.) Would God give you every opportunity to be saved? - opportunity yes, but not imposition or coercion
4.) Can God fail to persuade? - He tried extremely hard with Pharaoh to persuade, I think that you know the results.
5.) Does God get what He wants? - Every time. But you seem to be unaware of what he actually wants (Romans 9:22)
6.) Does God finish what He starts? - Yes. But, you need to be aware of what he started (gathering of the Elect, a specific number for Christ's kingdom)
7.) Does God give life? - Yes. But death also. You didn't know? (Jeremiah 21:8, Deuteronomy 30:15)
8.) Does God do everything with a purpose? - Yes. But again, are you even aware of the fullness of His purpose?

You have put forth, so far, only 3 isolated verses, and 8 false, or refutable, predicates.
Horrible exposition!

 

[Helen]

Yes, few are chosen because those chosen are to be Kings and Priests that reign with Him? So who do you think they are priest to? - The rest of mankind.

Over the 30 years I have so often wondered what part of the love of God drives some Christians insane with anger.
It is almost as if they want the unbelievers to be punished forever in-spite anything God may have planned.

I often wonder how they will feel when God speaks to them face to face and says - "So you didn't think I would do it."

Back in 1989 after a decade of flip flopping on this...
much prayer and travail ..I finally said to Father one day.." Okay Lord, I give up, You win, I will step over this line and surrender...I will lose friends and probably some family...but until my dying breath I will hold true, I will declare Your love, Your Grace, and Your Final Victory over the Enemy ... "
And I have never doubted or looked back.

God Wins.

 

[Enoch111]

Being Damned means you must pay for your sins.

No it does not. So you can either (1) go back and carefully study why there is eternal damnation or (2) hold on to your own ideas, and mislead others into damnation, since they will be under the delusion that in the end everyone is saved.

We need to base our beliefs on what is revealed in Scripture, particularly the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Not wishful thinking.

 

[Scoot]

So you don't believe that God gets what He desires?

Asked and answered already. :-)

Reread my reply in post 4 to your question #5.

@amadeus also gave reference to a scripture, which I've referred to in my previous post as another example of this (which uses the exact same Greek word) in post #7

 

[Rita]

I agree with you...but I believe I am one of the very FEW on this Forum that believes is 'God's Abundance Glorious Grace.' ...and.... "the reconciliation of ALL things"



Welcome to the forum.

I stand alongside xx
People don’t have to die to be experiencing hell !

 

[Scoot]

Over the 30 years I have so often wondered what part of the love of God drives some Christians insane with anger.
It is almost as if they want the unbelievers to be punished forever in-spite anything God may have planned.

Hi Helen,

I don't know what Christians you are talking to, but I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that anyone who calls themselves a Christian that wants others to suffer eternal torment are not truly saved themselves, as if the love of Christ is in us, the same love that hung Him on the cross, should our desire not be to want the lamb that was slain to have as many who will accept Him?

Contrary - the true Christian should reflect the heart of Christ, and that is to yearn that people would turn and be saved. That is the will of God.

Back in 1989 after a decade of flip flopping on this...
much prayer and travail ..I finally said to Father one day.." Okay Lord, I give up, You win, I will step over this line and surrender...I will lose friends and probably some family...but until my dying breath I will hold true, I will declare Your love, Your Grace, and Your Final Victory over the Enemy ... "
And I have never doubted or looked back.
God Wins.

With respect, I notice that you focus on His love and grace, but neglect His righteousness and Holiness. I could only hope that I am wrong in this, and all would be saved. But the urgency to preach the gospel to me reflects otherwise. As does Paul's severe warnings to those who would preach any other gospel. If universalism is true - then what need is there for such urgency?

The four creatures don't sing eternally in the throne room of God about his love or mercy, but His holiness. I can't help but think that we miss something when we don't balance His love along side of His righteousness and holiness.

I have seen universalism and focus solely on God's love creep in to places I never thought I would see. I have seen people I grew up with at Church who still call themselves Christians now encourage homosexual lifestyles and marriage, and vote "Yes" for homosexual marriage in our own country, because "God loves everyone", and "Love wins", with neglect for His holiness and righteousness.

If God get's everything He desires - was it God's desire for the devil to rebel? Will the devil be saved as well in this universal salvation? Does God 'Win' with the devil, and if so - is it by casting him and his minions into the eternal lake of fire, or by delivering them from sin and saving them too?

 

[brionne]

Ask yourself these questions:

1.) Does God desire all to be saved?
2.) Can God fail?
3.) Would God give you every opportunity to be saved?
4.) Can God fail to persuade?
5.) Does God get what He wants?
6.) Does God finish what He starts?
7.) Does God give life?
8.) Does God do everything with a purpose?

The questions are there to stimulate your thoughts on this subject.

God will have all to be saved in due time such that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. And nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

Free will means God allows people to make the choice.
He wants them to choose life, but he will not mould them unless they choose to be moulded.

Deut 30:19 I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants

Many people will choose death over life.

 

[brionne]

So here is a verse that shows that God will save all:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; two women will begrinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming [Greek: erʹkhe·tai].”—Matthew 24:36-42

the idea of universal salvation is a nice thought... but its a wrong thought. It could make some people feel they have no need to repent and no need to change their bad ways.
Its certainly not something Jesus preached.

 

[Enoch111]

People don’t have to die to be experiencing hell !

This is a purely subjective observation. Now what do you have from Scripture to back up this statement?

 

[Rita]

If you honestly believe that people living without the Lord cannot be in their own personal hells then you are not looking around the world with any honesty or reality. Jesus came to set the captives free, those in captivity, imprisoned, bound enslaved, overwhelmed, depraved.
I guess it depends on how you have interpreted ‘ hell ‘ in my sentence !
Rita

 

[Helen]

Hi Helen,

I don't know what Christians you are talking to, but I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that anyone who calls themselves a Christian that wants others to suffer eternal torment are not truly saved themselves, as if the love of Christ is in us, the same love that hung Him on the cross, should our desire not be to want the lamb that was slain to have as many who will accept Him?

Contrary - the true Christian should reflect the heart of Christ, and that is to yearn that people would turn and be saved. That is the will of God.



With respect, I notice that you focus on His love and grace, but neglect His righteousness and Holiness. I could only hope that I am wrong in this, and all would be saved. But the urgency to preach the gospel to me reflects otherwise. As does Paul's severe warnings to those who would preach any other gospel. If universalism is true - then what need is there for such urgency?

The four creatures don't sing eternally in the throne room of God about his love or mercy, but His holiness. I can't help but think that we miss something when we don't balance His love along side of His righteousness and holiness.

I have seen universalism and focus solely on God's love creep in to places I never thought I would see. I have seen people I grew up with at Church who still call themselves Christians now encourage homosexual lifestyles and marriage, and vote "Yes" for homosexual marriage in our own country, because "God loves everyone", and "Love wins", with neglect for His holiness and righteousness.

If God get's everything He desires - was it God's desire for the devil to rebel? Will the devil be saved as well in this universal salvation? Does God 'Win' with the devil, and if so - is it by casting him and his minions into the eternal lake of fire, or by delivering them from sin and saving them too?

Thank you for your good response ...I don’t think we have spoken before.
I have like the post of yours That I have seen. It’s nice to have you on the forum.

I know you will feel that I am coping out in my response here.

That Lord called me in1964, and I said - yes Lord ...and starting listening.

Like most , I also responded to what I heard preached about 'hell fire'...
We were in very active evangelism for a decade.
Then we were in a Sonship Movement for a couple of decades ...
( I’ve told my story a few times on this Forum ...so I won’t again ...
the Lord started nudging me about things , on and off for many years , and I argued with Him...for years .
I totally know what you are saying ...and you have many excellent points.
One being what you mentioned about the Love of God and Grace. Agree 100%
Those words have been greatly misused and twisted by many.
Grace is not without accountability , as Paul said - “Receive not the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ in vain.”
When this is done , it is a choice ...in fact what we each believe is a choice.
Some just believe whatever is dished up...some are too lazy to wait, pray , listen and study. That is their choice. As are all things in the Lord.

All I can say is that I have to do what I believe the Lord has spoken to me.
Being very aware I am a fish that swimming against the tide. But ...on That Day I have to give an answer , as do we all.
For me this was not something light or easy , as I mention many times before...
It was very hard , and it was over a decade in all... but once I saw the whole revelation , the cost of the Son of God , and the Father heart , there was no going back for me.

And yes, I have known Christians ( and some on this very site ) who has said flippantly and often about , people deserving nothing but torment and hell for ever and ever...
Have any of us got from God 'what we deserve'! Thankfully not.

You mentioned Holiness ...totally agree.

But, I think that in the many years I have been on this Site I have only posted two threads about this subject.
I have ‘said my bit’, I have made my stand , but I will not ‘beat some drum...or make it an agenda.
Punishment and Fire ...yes....but I do not believe in any eternal everlasting fire and torment for mankind ...the Lake of fire was created for the Devil and his angels .... I’ve done all of the word studies...translations and root searches...

But, this is 'just me' , every man must be persuaded in his own mind ...
I won’t argue the point.
I won’t do - “This is my scripture verse , now you show me yours “. Been there and done that too many times ...

“ A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still “

The Lord bless you and yours ...Helen.


P.S. I am on my iPad , it is 2.30am , I am in the dark (trying to sleep) the font is very tiny, my eyes are old, please excuse all mistakes,,,,,H

P.P S. *Plus, thank you very much for your politeness , so many seem to just get rude , indignant and angry.
But then again , if they can only see a harsh , angry God ...I do understand why.