Who Is The Antichrist? A Biblical Prespective.

[covenantee]

Not one individual antichrist and one individual false prophet like Pope.

But a number of individual antichrists like the popes.

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

 

[TribulationSigns]

But a number of individual antichrists like the popes.

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

I do NOT believe that a Papacy is mentioned in Scripture AT ALL! You got WRONG church but I am well aware that many, especially the Preterists, have "interpreted" the Papcy system to be the beast, however, I do not believe that will stand the test of Scripture as you shall see.

Like I said, the beasts are often symbolic of devouring kingdoms in Scripture. The heads are symbolic of authorities. The horns are symbolic of its power. The crowns on the horns are symbolic of its rule. This beast with the wound unto death, for example, is illustrative of the Kingdom of Satan. Not Papcy in 1600's Christ dealt this kingdom a death blow FOR BELEIVERS at the cross, breaking its authority on Earth to deceive the nations and hold them in bondage. Papacy hardly qualified!

Now consider wisely:
Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The woman is the kingdom of God on earth, making up of God's people in the Old Testament (Israel) and the New Testament (the Church), the Serpent is Satan, ruler of the Kingdom of darkness, the woman's seed is Christ. Christ was born before the Cross when Israel (woman) was a kingdom representative on Earth. But when Christ went to the Cross, and gave Satan a death blow where the kingdom representative was taken away from Israel and given to the New Testament Church in three days. The Old Testament of Israel has fallen and the New Testament Church was born and began the great commission and went to the world (fled to the wilderness where she had been fed). This has NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING to do with Papacy because she was never a true God's church to begin with anyway, not even their gross belief that Peter was the first Papacy (LOL). Now, near the end of the world, this 'death' wound Christ dealt Satan at the cross is healed, Satan loosened form the bottomless pit to havehis full power restored to goes forth with great authority over the nations and attack the church.

I do not take a Reformist, Historicist or Dispensational-type outlook on Revelation, focusing on physical Nations, Wars, Israel, or the Roman Catholic Church, blah blah blah, but on Scripture alone as the arbiter and interpreter of Revelation's symbolism. Yes, the Roman Catholic Church is very well ruled by those against Christ, but the system most certainly is NOT "thee" beast. Today, Satan who rules it is, and he can make his kingdom part of ANY Church system, including the prideful and boastful Protestant Churches.

Let me explain again, the wound happened at the Cross. PERIOD! Wounding the head of the beast is figurative language to signify that the authority (head=authority) of Satan's kingdom has been dealt a death blow, where he can no longer impede the salvation of the nations
Rev 12:9-11
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

IT happened at the Cross, so that the salvation can come forth to the world through the great commission (testimony of Two Witnesses) until all Elect are secured then Satan will be loosened. This does not sound like it happened in 1600 or your papacy theory at all, because the church were still marching to the whole world, spreading salvation gospel. It was not the end in Papacy rule.

Therefore, Christ by this death blow, has proved a way of escape from death:

Psalms 68:20-21

• "He that is our God is the God of salvation, and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
• But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses."

The healing of the wound happens in the future Apostasy in the CHURCH all over the world (not Roman Catholic) when false Christs and false prophets arise and again, and under authority of Satan deceive the nations (as he did before the cross), to gather them together against the camp of the Saints (the Church). This healing is unto the judgment of the people, not their help. The language that can be seen in Jeremiah is an illustration of the type of healing this is.

Jeremiah 6:13-15

• "For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
• They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
• Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD."

It is a false healing, a healing wherein the prophets come forth to deceive with false salvation and to deal treacherously with the people. The kingdom of Satan come up into the Church with a false hope of a salvation plan that will not save.

1st Thessalonians 5:3

• "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

This is the woman, the Church that thinks she has peace with God and safety from His judgments, when she is as far from peace and safety as light is from darkness. Papacy hardly qualified because she was never a faithful congregation of God to begin with to fulfill the prophecies.

So I truly believe the book of Revelation is completed/consummated at the SECOND COMING. That is the completion of all things. At the sounding of the seventh and LAST Trumpet, when there shall be time no more. To categorize it between Preterist and Futurist I certainly wouldn't do! I categorize it as the Testimony of Scripture.

Selah!

 

[CTK]

But a number of individual antichrists like the popes.

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

For what it is worth.... (this is just a simple outline of events.... the narrative, of course, would offer much support, commentary and details for these interpretations.

In Daniel 2, God reveals through Nebuchadnezzar’s dream that only four kingdoms will emerge within His divine plan of salvation. These four kingdoms are:

1. Babylon (gold head)
2. Medo-Persia (silver chest and arms)
3. Greece (bronze belly and thighs)
4. Rome (iron legs, feet of iron and clay)

The first three kingdoms are easily identifiable. However, some debate arises over the fourth kingdom. Yet, scripture and history make it clear—the fourth kingdom is Rome, particularly pagan Rome, since that was the only Rome known at the time.

God symbolically represents Rome in two distinct ways in Daniel 2:

• It is depicted as the legs and feet of the great statue.
• It is made of iron, symbolizing Rome’s unmatched military strength and rule.

But unlike the first three kingdoms, the fourth kingdom contains something unique: iron mixed with clay (Daniel 2:33, 41-42). This is significant.

The ceramic clay represents God’s people (Israel) living under Roman rule. Just as Rome absorbed conquered nations into its empire, the Jewish people were part of the Roman system.

This period approaches the fulfillment of Daniel’s 70-week prophecy (Daniel 9:24-27), leading up to the arrival of the Messiah—Jesus Christ.

Then, something dramatic happens in prophecy.

In Daniel 2:34, during the dream sequence, God reveals that a stone, cut without human hands, strikes the feet of the statue, shattering both iron and clay. This stone represents Jesus Christ, who established His kingdom on earth.

But Jesus did not come as a military leader to overthrow Rome, as many Jews expected. Instead, He came to spiritually divide—separating those who would accept Him from those who would reject Him.

• As the divine Potter (Isaiah 64:8; Jeremiah 18:6), Jesus could mold those who accepted Him into His kingdom.
• Those who rejected Him remained as "ceramic clay"—hardened and unmoldable.

Thus, Jesus symbolically freed His people—not politically, but spiritually. Those who followed Him spread the Gospel throughout the Roman world.

The striking of the feet by the stone also results in the release of the ten toes of the statue.

• These ten toes are made of iron and clay, showing that God’s commandments had been bound within the Jewish nation until this point.
• However, after the cross, Jesus’ followers carried God’s commandments—the moral law—beyond Israel into the Roman Empire.

In Daniel 7, these ten toes are now represented as ten horns (Daniel 7:7-8, 24).

• These are not ten nations.
• These are the Ten Commandments of God—now free to be preached to all peoples and nations.

The followers of Christ carried both the Gospel and the Ten Commandments throughout the world. His law was no longer confined to Israel—it was now proclaimed to Gentiles and Jews alike.

However, in Daniel 7, after the ten horns appear, another power emerges—the "little horn" (Daniel 7:8).

This little horn does not represent a nation or military power. Instead, it symbolizes a religious-political power that would rise within the remnants of Rome after the cross.

• The ten horns (Ten Commandments) and the little horn both come out of the fourth beast—pagan Rome.
• They emerge after the cross, when Christ has already established His kingdom.
• They both begin at the "bottom of the beast"—meaning they start as small movements within Roman Empire.

This little horn is not Rome itself but something that comes out of Rome after the empire begins to weaken.


For the first three centuries after Christ, Christianity spread rapidly despite persecution. By the time of Constantine (early 300s AD), the Christian church had grown into a highly structured institution.

At this time, four major bishops ruled over Christian centers:

1. Rome
2. Antioch
3. Alexandria
4. Jerusalem

Each of these bishops sought supreme authority over the entire Christian church.

Then, in 476 AD, pagan Rome collapsed (Daniel 7:11). This event set the stage for the rise of a new form of Rome—not a military empire, but a religious-political power.


In 538 AD, Emperor Justinian issued a decree, declaring the Bishop of Rome as the head of the Christian church.

• The little horn had now risen to power.
• This marks the transition from pagan Rome to Papal Rome.
• By this time, the church had gained control over both religious and political matters.

This fulfills Daniel 7:20, which states that:

• The ten horns (the commandments of God) and the little horn (Papal Rome) had reached "the top of the beast"—meaning they had become dominant forces in what remained of the Roman Empire.

The little horn is described as:

1. Speaking pompous words against the Most High (Daniel 7:25).
2. Seeking to change times and laws (Daniel 7:25).
3. Persecuting the saints of the Most High (Daniel 7:21, 25).

History confirms that Papal Rome:

• Changed God’s times and laws (e.g., shifting the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday).
• Persecuted those who opposed its authority (e.g., the Inquisition, excommunications, and executions).
• Elevated church traditions over Scripture, aligning with Daniel’s prophecy.

This system of religious power—not a single individual, but a long-standing institution—fulfilled the characteristics of the little horn.


Daniel’s vision of the little horn provides a divine timeline leading to the second coming of Christ.

• Pagan Rome ruled with an iron fist.
• Jesus freed the clay (His people) and spread His commandments to the world.
• The church grew in power, but eventually, Papal Rome sought to change God’s law.
• The little horn rose to dominate both religion and politics.

But in Daniel 2:44, God promises that His kingdom will replace all earthly powers. The stone that shattered the statue’s feet will grow into a great mountain that fills the whole earth (Daniel 2:35, 45). This represents Jesus' second coming, when all false systems of power will fall, and God’s eternal kingdom will reign forever.

 

[covenantee]

I do NOT believe that a Papacy is mentioned in Scripture AT ALL! You got WRONG church but I am well aware that many, especially the Preterists, have "interpreted" the Papcy system to be the beast, however, I do not believe that will stand the test of Scripture as you shall see.

Like I said, the beasts are often symbolic of devouring kingdoms in Scripture. The heads are symbolic of authorities. The horns are symbolic of its power. The crowns on the horns are symbolic of its rule. This beast with the wound unto death, for example, is illustrative of the Kingdom of Satan. Not Papcy in 1600's Christ dealt this kingdom a death blow FOR BELEIVERS at the cross, breaking its authority on Earth to deceive the nations and hold them in bondage. Papacy hardly qualified!

Now consider wisely:
Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The woman is the kingdom of God on earth, making up of God's people in the Old Testament (Israel) and the New Testament (the Church), the Serpent is Satan, ruler of the Kingdom of darkness, the woman's seed is Christ. Christ was born before the Cross when Israel (woman) was a kingdom representative on Earth. But when Christ went to the Cross, and gave Satan a death blow where the kingdom representative was taken away from Israel and given to the New Testament Church in three days. The Old Testament of Israel has fallen and the New Testament Church was born and began the great commission and went to the world (fled to the wilderness where she had been fed). This has NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING to do with Papacy because she was never a true God's church to begin with anyway, not even their gross belief that Peter was the first Papacy (LOL). Now, near the end of the world, this 'death' wound Christ dealt Satan at the cross is healed, Satan loosened form the bottomless pit to havehis full power restored to goes forth with great authority over the nations and attack the church.

I do not take a Reformist, Historicist or Dispensational-type outlook on Revelation, focusing on physical Nations, Wars, Israel, or the Roman Catholic Church, blah blah blah, but on Scripture alone as the arbiter and interpreter of Revelation's symbolism. Yes, the Roman Catholic Church is very well ruled by those against Christ, but the system most certainly is NOT "thee" beast. Today, Satan who rules it is, and he can make his kingdom part of ANY Church system, including the prideful and boastful Protestant Churches.

Let me explain again, the wound happened at the Cross. PERIOD! Wounding the head of the beast is figurative language to signify that the authority (head=authority) of Satan's kingdom has been dealt a death blow, where he can no longer impede the salvation of the nations
Rev 12:9-11
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

IT happened at the Cross, so that the salvation can come forth to the world through the great commission (testimony of Two Witnesses) until all Elect are secured then Satan will be loosened. This does not sound like it happened in 1600 or your papacy theory at all, because the church were still marching to the whole world, spreading salvation gospel. It was not the end in Papacy rule.

Therefore, Christ by this death blow, has proved a way of escape from death:

Psalms 68:20-21

• "He that is our God is the God of salvation, and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
• But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses."

The healing of the wound happens in the future Apostasy in the CHURCH all over the world (not Roman Catholic) when false Christs and false prophets arise and again, and under authority of Satan deceive the nations (as he did before the cross), to gather them together against the camp of the Saints (the Church). This healing is unto the judgment of the people, not their help. The language that can be seen in Jeremiah is an illustration of the type of healing this is.

Jeremiah 6:13-15

• "For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
• They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
• Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD."

It is a false healing, a healing wherein the prophets come forth to deceive with false salvation and to deal treacherously with the people. The kingdom of Satan come up into the Church with a false hope of a salvation plan that will not save.

1st Thessalonians 5:3

• "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

This is the woman, the Church that thinks she has peace with God and safety from His judgments, when she is as far from peace and safety as light is from darkness. Papacy hardly qualified because she was never a faithful congregation of God to begin with to fulfill the prophecies.

So I truly believe the book of Revelation is completed/consummated at the SECOND COMING. That is the completion of all things. At the sounding of the seventh and LAST Trumpet, when there shall be time no more. To categorize it between Preterist and Futurist I certainly wouldn't do! I categorize it as the Testimony of Scripture.

Selah!

Spare us the tirade.

I've said nothing about beasts or heads or horns or crowns et al. Your imagination has overwhelmed you.

I've simply said that the papacy's arrogations identify it as an antichrist according to the term meaning a substitute for Christ.

The Reformers recognized that reality.

Whom to believe?

Reformation deniers
or
The Reformers, whom God called and empowered to confront and conquer the apostate papal antichrist.

Need a hint?

 

[covenantee]

For what it is worth.... (this is just a simple outline of events.... the narrative, of course, would offer much support, commentary and details for these interpretations.

In Daniel 2, God reveals through Nebuchadnezzar’s dream that only four kingdoms will emerge within His divine plan of salvation. These four kingdoms are:

1. Babylon (gold head)
2. Medo-Persia (silver chest and arms)
3. Greece (bronze belly and thighs)
4. Rome (iron legs, feet of iron and clay)

The first three kingdoms are easily identifiable. However, some debate arises over the fourth kingdom. Yet, scripture and history make it clear—the fourth kingdom is Rome, particularly pagan Rome, since that was the only Rome known at the time.

God symbolically represents Rome in two distinct ways in Daniel 2:

• It is depicted as the legs and feet of the great statue.
• It is made of iron, symbolizing Rome’s unmatched military strength and rule.

But unlike the first three kingdoms, the fourth kingdom contains something unique: iron mixed with clay (Daniel 2:33, 41-42). This is significant.

The ceramic clay represents God’s people (Israel) living under Roman rule. Just as Rome absorbed conquered nations into its empire, the Jewish people were part of the Roman system.

This period approaches the fulfillment of Daniel’s 70-week prophecy (Daniel 9:24-27), leading up to the arrival of the Messiah—Jesus Christ.

Then, something dramatic happens in prophecy.

In Daniel 2:34, during the dream sequence, God reveals that a stone, cut without human hands, strikes the feet of the statue, shattering both iron and clay. This stone represents Jesus Christ, who established His kingdom on earth.

But Jesus did not come as a military leader to overthrow Rome, as many Jews expected. Instead, He came to spiritually divide—separating those who would accept Him from those who would reject Him.

• As the divine Potter (Isaiah 64:8; Jeremiah 18:6), Jesus could mold those who accepted Him into His kingdom.
• Those who rejected Him remained as "ceramic clay"—hardened and unmoldable.

Thus, Jesus symbolically freed His people—not politically, but spiritually. Those who followed Him spread the Gospel throughout the Roman world.

The striking of the feet by the stone also results in the release of the ten toes of the statue.

• These ten toes are made of iron and clay, showing that God’s commandments had been bound within the Jewish nation until this point.
• However, after the cross, Jesus’ followers carried God’s commandments—the moral law—beyond Israel into the Roman Empire.

In Daniel 7, these ten toes are now represented as ten horns (Daniel 7:7-8, 24).

• These are not ten nations.
• These are the Ten Commandments of God—now free to be preached to all peoples and nations.

The followers of Christ carried both the Gospel and the Ten Commandments throughout the world. His law was no longer confined to Israel—it was now proclaimed to Gentiles and Jews alike.

However, in Daniel 7, after the ten horns appear, another power emerges—the "little horn" (Daniel 7:8).

This little horn does not represent a nation or military power. Instead, it symbolizes a religious-political power that would rise within the remnants of Rome after the cross.

• The ten horns (Ten Commandments) and the little horn both come out of the fourth beast—pagan Rome.
• They emerge after the cross, when Christ has already established His kingdom.
• They both begin at the "bottom of the beast"—meaning they start as small movements within Roman Empire.

This little horn is not Rome itself but something that comes out of Rome after the empire begins to weaken.


For the first three centuries after Christ, Christianity spread rapidly despite persecution. By the time of Constantine (early 300s AD), the Christian church had grown into a highly structured institution.

At this time, four major bishops ruled over Christian centers:

1. Rome
2. Antioch
3. Alexandria
4. Jerusalem

Each of these bishops sought supreme authority over the entire Christian church.

Then, in 476 AD, pagan Rome collapsed (Daniel 7:11). This event set the stage for the rise of a new form of Rome—not a military empire, but a religious-political power.


In 538 AD, Emperor Justinian issued a decree, declaring the Bishop of Rome as the head of the Christian church.

• The little horn had now risen to power.
• This marks the transition from pagan Rome to Papal Rome.
• By this time, the church had gained control over both religious and political matters.

This fulfills Daniel 7:20, which states that:

• The ten horns (the commandments of God) and the little horn (Papal Rome) had reached "the top of the beast"—meaning they had become dominant forces in what remained of the Roman Empire.

The little horn is described as:

1. Speaking pompous words against the Most High (Daniel 7:25).
2. Seeking to change times and laws (Daniel 7:25).
3. Persecuting the saints of the Most High (Daniel 7:21, 25).

History confirms that Papal Rome:

• Changed God’s times and laws (e.g., shifting the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday).
• Persecuted those who opposed its authority (e.g., the Inquisition, excommunications, and executions).
• Elevated church traditions over Scripture, aligning with Daniel’s prophecy.

This system of religious power—not a single individual, but a long-standing institution—fulfilled the characteristics of the little horn.


Daniel’s vision of the little horn provides a divine timeline leading to the second coming of Christ.

• Pagan Rome ruled with an iron fist.
• Jesus freed the clay (His people) and spread His commandments to the world.
• The church grew in power, but eventually, Papal Rome sought to change God’s law.
• The little horn rose to dominate both religion and politics.

But in Daniel 2:44, God promises that His kingdom will replace all earthly powers. The stone that shattered the statue’s feet will grow into a great mountain that fills the whole earth (Daniel 2:35, 45). This represents Jesus' second coming, when all false systems of power will fall, and God’s eternal kingdom will reign forever.

What do you believe are the three horns of Daniel 7:8,20,24 ? History identifies three geopolitical kingdoms -- the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths -- which were plucked up/subdued/overthrown by the papacy.

 

[CTK]

What do you believe are the three horns of Daniel 7:8,20,24 ? History identifies three geopolitical kingdoms -- the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths -- which were plucked up/subdued/overthrown by the papacy.

The three horns that were plucked up by the roots are the first 3 commandments.

1) they claim divinity with God....
2) worship idols,
3) take the Lord God's name in vain.... this is not using God's name as a curse word like most think. They speak Jesus but in name only. Everything they do is for their own gain.

There is so much that can be written on this... and it is in my commentary but I am quite sure you can easily see just how far they have gone away from honoring these 3 commandments.

By the roots indicates that the papacy has done everything in their power to separate the Jewish people from the Christian church - they were indeed quite successful.

This is why they (papacy) went to so much effort to identify the "little horn" as an end time "anti'Christ" figure. It does so many things - no one really discusses or even brings up the term "little horn" anymore, but they go to great lengths discussing and predicting some mythical end time figure as an "anti-Christ." This was created and promoted by Ribera as a counter reformation measure. And they were so successful. No one bothers to mention the "little horn" that God had Daniel record in his book. No where in all the NT will you find a literal "anti'Christ" figure that comes upon the earth. But there is definitely the "little horn" who has been corrupted God's word and His commandments for over 1500 years, Would we expect ANYONE to do more against God and His Word than the little horn?

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello,

The Book of Daniel only indicates the first three people groups that had dominion over the land of Babylon.

To establish what "people group" the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue prophecy is, we must turn to the Book of Jeremaih, to discover that the land of Babylon would become a desolated and devasted land for a period of some two ages, and that after these two ages oof desolation and devastation, we are told in the Book of Revelation that Babylon would be remembered once more before God to receive God's wrath once more.

The Works of Josephus tell us that the Greek Sicilian empire around 120 BC cause the land of Babylon to become desolate and to also be devasted by the eastern Greek empire. Now since the Roman Empire only became dominate around 60 BC, the Roman Empire cannot logically be the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy.

It was only after WW1 that the British and French Governments established the nation of Iraq in 1926 AD when they carved up the Otterman Empire after its defeat during WW1.

Then in 2003, around twenty nations banded together to form a coalition of nation that then invaded Iraq and imposed their dominance over the Land of Babylon after their collective invasion of Iraq.

It was not until the 20th century that it became clear as to the people group that would have dominion over the land of Babylon for a period of time.

Now, an examination of the Book of Revelation reveals that the "Antichrist" will be a fallen and judged heavenly host.

We really need to be careful in trying to impose our understanding as to who, the end time antichrist will be in our interpretation of the End Time prophecies.

The reformation father nearly 500-600 years ago got their interpretation of who the antichrist will be and the theologian who have followed the reformation father, have held on to the poor understanding of the reformation fathers.

Goodbye

 

[Marty fox]

As I have witnessed in the church the Antichrist has been grossly misunderstood.

Satan is a spirit. And Antichrist is a spirit. More specifically, the spirit that works within the unsaved and opposes Christ in the church. The word itself even implies a pseudo-christ or a substitute Christ. It illustrates "a false Christ." Technically, the man of sin and Antichrist are not "exactly" the same, except that one (the spirit) works within the other. Antichrist is the spirit of Satan that opposes Christ, while the man of sin (the sinful man) is man with the spirit of Satan working within him. Just as the Spirit of God works within Christian, a "man unto lawfulness," so the spirit of Satan works within "man to lawlessness," or as is Biblically known, the man of sin. In other words, sin = lawlessness and the man who is lawless is he who forsakes God's laws. He is he that will come to rule in the church, not a single man, but every single man of sin (lawlessness). For example, the false prophets and christs roaming into the churches today!

He is called the man of lawlessness (or the man of sin) collectively simply because that is what he is. The unrighteous man as opposed to the righteous man (Proverbs 13:5). Thus the sinful or lawless man and the spirit of Antichrist are the same only as one resides within the other. Clearly, this is how Satan rules the kings of the earth, and this is how the Apostle Paul could declare that there were many Antichrists even in his day. Because Antichrist is the sinful man, of which there were many.

1st John 2:18-19

• "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
• They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

There were many men, women, even children with the spirit of antichrist (men of sin) in Paul's day, and they were in the church, but fell away because they were not truly (sealed) of the Christ. They are the "many" but not chosen. They were of the spirit of the anti (in place of) Christ, and that is why the apostle Paul says "they were not truly of them and went out from them." They were not truly of the spirit of Christ, but of the spirit of the pseudo christ, which is why they chose to forsake the church.

Many Christians wonder how the prophecy can be that "Antichrist should come," if Paul says that he was already there at that time? The answer is simple, because the spirit of Satan was at work in the world within man deceiving (witnessed by Paul saying they went out from them) some even then, but Christ had also bound the spirit Satan by His cross that it was restrained in its power so that His church could be built by spoiling the Gentiles from the Gentiles/Nations (Satan's house/world). In other words, though Antichrist was going forth as a roaring lion deceiving some, he couldn't yet come in the fullness of his spiritual power to deceive the nations (Revelation 20) "until" after the period God says the nations were not to be deceived (Revelation 20:3) as the church was built in this millennial or 1000 year reign of Christ. This is when the "little horn" comes - a short season of fullness of spiritual power to deceive! Selah!

After the millennial reign of the nations being set free from spiritual bondage, THEN this spirit will be loosed from its chains to freely go forth to deceive the nations again and gather the wicked to assault the camp of the saints.

Another thing to take note of is the word "anti." In our day, the term anti is generally understood to mean to be against something or someone. But the literal Greek word [anti] in scripture more accurately denotes something that is 'in place of' another thing. As a substitute. True, it can rightly be translated 'anti' (as we might understand it) because by implication it can mean to be in opposition, and it is often used in that context. In other words, by extension it denotes that which is opposite by being set a substitute (in place of) the true. In this way it is a counterfeit set 'against' the original. For example, if we have something "in place of" the truth, it is a lie, right? Therefore those who believe in telling the truth, would be anti or opposed to lies. Or again, that which is "in place of justice" would be injustice. Therefore those who substitute injustice for justice are 'anti' or in opposition to justice. This is how this Greek word 'by extension' can mean anti. But its root meaning is "in place of" or as a substitute. a false Christ.

This word [anti] as applied to Christ is more clearly defining a substitute Christ, or that which is 'instead of' Christ. Therefore it is a synonym for "false Christ" or pseudo Christ, a substitute for the true. Those with the spirit of Antichrist are those who come as the church with the spirit of a false Christ. For example, the professing Christians who are NOT truly Christians or not truly saved. As the apostle Paul says (1st John 2:18-19), they went out from us "because" they were not of us. They did not have the Spirit of Christ in the first place which would truly make them one of them.

2nd Corinthians 11:13-15

• "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
• And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
• Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

These are the ministers of Satan coming "appearing like ministers of Christ." They were the Antichrists or false Christs of Paul's day, as they are of our day! The difference is, pay attention to this, in the latter days, these are those that will multiply greatly or abound, and this will be near the time of Christ's return. Then will the Antichrist be "revealed" in ALL HIS POWER to deceive and gather together the Gentiles against the camp of the saints, the remnant of the church. Those men with the spirit of the pseudo Christ, who worship a substitute Christ in the spirit of disobedience so that the sinful man is then ruling in the Holy Temple (God's house) in place of God.

Sadly, the term "anti-Christ" as it is often understood to be "ONE" personage that is supposed to come, is a misnomer! The Bible defines it as the spirit that is prophesied to come, and yet was already in the world at the time the apostle Paul was inspired to write the text. That hardly qualifies as one man at all!

Hello any thoughts on post #20?

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is how I see it,

John gives both the antichrist and the beast different names, descriptions and purposes for a reason.

Disagree. The beast is the body of the antichrist (his kingdom) that was wounded at Christ's death and resurrection. Not two separate entities or "demons" with different purposes like you think.

The beast is self-glorifying, evil concuror and persecutor of the church. Two completely different demonic beings.

Nope.

In Johns day the beast was the perfect description of an evil demonic being influencing Rome and its leaders mainly Nero.

Nothing to do with Rome and Nero. I have already heard preterism nonsense on this before.

A single person can't be o"nce was now is not and yet will come out of the Abyss" or have "seven heads who 5 have come one is and another yet will come only for a short while".

Single person? Where did you get this from?

Daniel chapter 10 gives us insite to demonic beings influencing nations and their leaders.

Demon beings? Where do you find this in Scripture?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Spare us the tirade.

Tell that to Peter, Paul, Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc.

I've simply said that the papacy's arrogations identify it as an antichrist according to the term meaning a substitute for Christ.

The Reformers recognized that reality.

Whom to believe?

Reformation deniers
or
The Reformers, whom God called and empowered to confront and conquer the apostate papal antichrist.

Have I mentioned the reformers' names above? Papal Church was one of many small antichrist movements that popped up over the Christian Era. However, Papal was not the sign of the time of the end. Satan was STILL restrained as the church was STILL preaching the Gospel to the end of the world (America barely discovered in 1492), and the Salvation Gospel hasn't ended, else we are not saved today. As you should know Satan CANNOT be loosened from the bottomless pit until Christ FINISH BUILDING HIS CHURCH FIRST with all Elect sealed! Papal hardly qualified as your vision of beast, little horn, or whatever in her history. Like I said, you got the wrong Church. :-)

 

[covenantee]

Papal Church was one of many small antichrist movements that popped up over the Christian Era.

Surely you jest. Antichrist it was. Small it wasn't. It imposed its will upon the known world for 1,000 years of what is known as the Dark Ages, claiming millions of lives in the process.

However, Papal was not the sign of the time of the end.

Who said it was?

Satan was STILL restrained as the church was STILL preaching the Gospel

Antichrist was not preaching the gospel. It was apostasizing over the Dark Ages to the time of the Reformation.

Papal hardly qualified as your vision of beast, little horn, or whatever in her history.

Whom to believe?

Reformation deniers
or
The Reformers, who recognized the prophetic symbols, and whom God called and empowered to confront and conquer the apostate papal antichrist.

No hint needed.

 

[Marty fox]

Disagree. The beast is the body of the antichrist (his kingdom) that was wounded at Christ's death and resurrection. Not two separate entities or "demons" with different purposes like you think.



Nope.



Nothing to do with Rome and Nero. I have already heard preterism nonsense on this before.



Single person? Where did you get this from?


Demon beings? Where do you find this in Scripture?

John who wrote his epistles and revelation clearly separates the beast and the antichrist

John gives them different names, John describes them different personalities and different purposes. If you read the only four verses in the entire Bible that uses term antichrist that I posted from Johns epistles and then the only chapters in Revelation that uses the term beast you will see that. The descriptions of the antichrist are more like the false prophet then the sea beast.

The antichrist in Johns day was the perfect description of apostate Israel and the false prophet is the only beast in the bible that is described as a clean animal which would signify Israel. How could the antichrist be the conformEd church if the antichrist never preached the gospel?

I must of been thinking of some one else about the single person but no person can come from the abyss that has to be a demonic being.

I posted the chapter that shows demonic beings over nations Daniel chapter 10. Do you not think that the king and prince of Persia and the king of Greece are demonic beings even though it shows Michael as the prince of Israel?

Would a person be able to hold back an powerful angel to the point of that powerful angel needed to call Michael for help?

 

[ewq1938]

The antichrist in Johns day was the perfect description of apostate Israel and the false prophet is the only beast in the bible that is described as a clean animal

The FP is never described as a clean animal. He only has two little horns like a Lamb. It doesn't even say he has two lamb's horns, just two like a lamb and the Greek word is lambkin a young lamb, so that's why the two horns are two little horns which should make people think of the little horn in Daniel.

which would signify Israel. How could the antichrist be the conformEd church if the antichrist never preached the gospel?

The FP is one person, not a nation of people so he is not Israel.

 

[Marty fox]

The FP is never described as a clean animal. He only has two little horns like a Lamb. It doesn't even say he has two lamb's horns, just two like a lamb and the Greek word is lambkin a young lamb, so that's why the two horns are two little horns which should make people think of the little horn in Daniel.






The FP is one person, not a nation of people so he is not Israel.

Thats what a description is an animal is referenced to it. I didn't say that the false prophet was a lamb I said described as a lamb

 

[TribulationSigns]

Surely you jest. Antichrist it was. Small it wasn't. It imposed its will upon the known world for 1,000 years of what is known as the Dark Ages, claiming millions of lives in the process.

So what? The "TRUE" church still marched on with the great commission wasn't it? The papacy system is just one of many antichrists' belief but was not the time when she can silence the true testimony and end Two Witnesses' testimony. Tell me, when the beast come out of the bottomless pit and overcome and kill Two Witnesses after 1,260 days of testimony, when was that take place anyway in your (ahem) doctrine?

Who said it was?

Just double check to see if you agree.

Antichrist was not preaching the gospel.

Really? Aren't antichrists one of us but is not of us? Think carefully.

It was apostasizing over the Dark Ages to the time of the Reformation.

What was apostatizing during the dark ages are professed Christians who have established Papal system thinking she is Holy Mother. But she was NOT the beast herself for the great commission wasn't finished yet. The testimony of Two Witnesses wasn't finished at that time, so no beast have been released from bottomless pit at that time. THat is why we had true Christians fighting for reformation against Papacy but it was not the time of the end and the church marched on. Selah.

Whom to believe?

Reformation deniers
or
The Reformers, who recognized the prophetic symbols, and whom God called and empowered to confront and conquer the apostate papal antichrist.

No hint needed.

The only hint is that you had no clue what you were talking about. Reformers were one of the Two Witnesses (True Christians) that were successfully keeping Papal at bay and the protestant churches were born and marched on with their great commission. Nope, the beast was still in a bottomless pit because the testimony of the church for salvation marched on to the ends of the world. Not "known world" of Papacy. LOL! Selah.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The FP is never described as a clean animal. He only has two little horns like a Lamb. It doesn't even say he has two lamb's horns, just two like a lamb and the Greek word is lambkin a young lamb, so that's why the two horns are two little horns which should make people think of the little horn in Daniel.

Rev 13:11
(11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

It has two horns like a lamb SIGNIFYING that he comes with the POWER (horns) of the church of Christ. But God tells us that it speaks as a dragon, "SIGNIFYIING" that its witness is NOT the Words of Christ, but the Words of Satan, the Dragon. Thus we understand this "REPRESENTS" the false prophets of the Christian Church TODAY who prophesy rebellion and disobedience to the laws of God. The false prophets and christs cause the unfaithful churches of the Earth to worship the Kingdom of Satan, which is "REPRESENTED" by the First Beast. By preaching the lies of their father, the Devil, the false witnesses cause the wound that Christ put on that first beast to be HEALED. For example, it is back to the same old disobedience, rejection of Christ's truth in worshipping the nation Israel rather than Christ, the Israel of God. God's people in rebellions against laws, truth, etc. etc. The wound being healed REPRESENTS Satan's kingdom once again receive full power (no longer restrained in bottomless pit) to bring God's people into apostasy "THROUGH" false prophets and christs. IN other words, the second beast follows the very same playbook as the first, worshipping genealogies, rejecting the Word of Truth, forsaking the established doctrines of the Saints. For example, look at churches today, the rise doctrines of Dispensationalism is yesterday's Judaism that Christ condemned. Because nothing really ever changes. As saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun.

Selah!

The FP is one person, not a nation of people so he is not Israel.

Wrong. The second beast is not "one person". It is the body of Satan, more specifically, the false prophets and christs coming into church appearing to have power from God but preach falsely. For example, it is okay to allow homosexualities to become a pastor, or get married in God's House. It is okay to divorce and remarriage. It is okay to play music with wordly band instrument more than actually preaching. Etc. Etc. All of these are leading many, many churches all over the world into apostasy to the point that no man would buy our merchandise (gospel) anymore. NO want want to hear Truthful testimony anymore. And the judgment of the Church has come.

 

[covenantee]

So what? The "TRUE" church still marched on with the great commission wasn't it? The papacy system is just one of many antichrists' belief but was not the time when she can silence the true testimony and end Two Witnesses' testimony. Tell me, when the beast come out of the bottomless pit and overcome and kill Two Witnesses after 1,260 days of testimony, when was that take place anyway in your (ahem) doctrine?



Just double check to see if you agree.



Really? Aren't antichrists one of us but is not of us? Think carefully.



What was apostatizing during the dark ages are professed Christians who have established Papal system thinking she is Holy Mother. But she was NOT the beast herself for the great commission wasn't finished yet. The testimony of Two Witnesses wasn't finished at that time, so no beast have been released from bottomless pit at that time. THat is why we had true Christians fighting for reformation against Papacy but it was not the time of the end and the church marched on. Selah.


The only hint is that you had no clue what you were talking about. Reformers were one of the Two Witnesses (True Christians) that were successfully keeping Papal at bay and the protestant churches were born and marched on with their great commission. Nope, the beast was still in a bottomless pit because the testimony of the church for salvation marched on to the ends of the world. Not "known world" of Papacy. LOL! Selah.

So to review, do the following claims of the papacy identify the papacy as an antichrist, where "anti" means substitute?

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

As I have witnessed in the church the Antichrist has been grossly misunderstood.

Satan is a spirit. And Antichrist is a spirit. More specifically, the spirit that works within the unsaved and opposes Christ in the church. The word itself even implies a pseudo-christ or a substitute Christ. It illustrates "a false Christ." Technically, the man of sin and Antichrist are not "exactly" the same, except that one (the spirit) works within the other. Antichrist is the spirit of Satan that opposes Christ, while the man of sin (the sinful man) is man with the spirit of Satan working within him. Just as the Spirit of God works within Christian, a "man unto lawfulness," so the spirit of Satan works within "man to lawlessness," or as is Biblically known, the man of sin. In other words, sin = lawlessness and the man who is lawless is he who forsakes God's laws. He is he that will come to rule in the church, not a single man, but every single man of sin (lawlessness). For example, the false prophets and christs roaming into the churches today!

He is called the man of lawlessness (or the man of sin) collectively simply because that is what he is. The unrighteous man as opposed to the righteous man (Proverbs 13:5). Thus the sinful or lawless man and the spirit of Antichrist are the same only as one resides within the other. Clearly, this is how Satan rules the kings of the earth, and this is how the Apostle Paul could declare that there were many Antichrists even in his day. Because Antichrist is the sinful man, of which there were many.

1st John 2:18-19

• "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
• They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

There were many men, women, even children with the spirit of antichrist (men of sin) in Paul's day, and they were in the church, but fell away because they were not truly (sealed) of the Christ. They are the "many" but not chosen. They were of the spirit of the anti (in place of) Christ, and that is why the apostle Paul says "they were not truly of them and went out from them." They were not truly of the spirit of Christ, but of the spirit of the pseudo christ, which is why they chose to forsake the church.

Many Christians wonder how the prophecy can be that "Antichrist should come," if Paul says that he was already there at that time? The answer is simple, because the spirit of Satan was at work in the world within man deceiving (witnessed by Paul saying they went out from them) some even then, but Christ had also bound the spirit Satan by His cross that it was restrained in its power so that His church could be built by spoiling the Gentiles from the Gentiles/Nations (Satan's house/world). In other words, though Antichrist was going forth as a roaring lion deceiving some, he couldn't yet come in the fullness of his spiritual power to deceive the nations (Revelation 20) "until" after the period God says the nations were not to be deceived (Revelation 20:3) as the church was built in this millennial or 1000 year reign of Christ. This is when the "little horn" comes - a short season of fullness of spiritual power to deceive! Selah!

After the millennial reign of the nations being set free from spiritual bondage, THEN this spirit will be loosed from its chains to freely go forth to deceive the nations again and gather the wicked to assault the camp of the saints.

Another thing to take note of is the word "anti." In our day, the term anti is generally understood to mean to be against something or someone. But the literal Greek word [anti] in scripture more accurately denotes something that is 'in place of' another thing. As a substitute. True, it can rightly be translated 'anti' (as we might understand it) because by implication it can mean to be in opposition, and it is often used in that context. In other words, by extension it denotes that which is opposite by being set a substitute (in place of) the true. In this way it is a counterfeit set 'against' the original. For example, if we have something "in place of" the truth, it is a lie, right? Therefore those who believe in telling the truth, would be anti or opposed to lies. Or again, that which is "in place of justice" would be injustice. Therefore those who substitute injustice for justice are 'anti' or in opposition to justice. This is how this Greek word 'by extension' can mean anti. But its root meaning is "in place of" or as a substitute. a false Christ.

This word [anti] as applied to Christ is more clearly defining a substitute Christ, or that which is 'instead of' Christ. Therefore it is a synonym for "false Christ" or pseudo Christ, a substitute for the true. Those with the spirit of Antichrist are those who come as the church with the spirit of a false Christ. For example, the professing Christians who are NOT truly Christians or not truly saved. As the apostle Paul says (1st John 2:18-19), they went out from us "because" they were not of us. They did not have the Spirit of Christ in the first place which would truly make them one of them.

2nd Corinthians 11:13-15

• "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
• And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
• Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

These are the ministers of Satan coming "appearing like ministers of Christ." They were the Antichrists or false Christs of Paul's day, as they are of our day! The difference is, pay attention to this, in the latter days, these are those that will multiply greatly or abound, and this will be near the time of Christ's return. Then will the Antichrist be "revealed" in ALL HIS POWER to deceive and gather together the Gentiles against the camp of the saints, the remnant of the church. Those men with the spirit of the pseudo Christ, who worship a substitute Christ in the spirit of disobedience so that the sinful man is then ruling in the Holy Temple (God's house) in place of God.

Sadly, the term "anti-Christ" as it is often understood to be "ONE" personage that is supposed to come, is a misnomer! The Bible defines it as the spirit that is prophesied to come, and yet was already in the world at the time the apostle Paul was inspired to write the text. That hardly qualifies as one man at all!

The antichrist is a person. As a matter of fact according to Scripture , he is the seed of Satan.

You must remember that Satan is a great counterfeiter. Just as God is a trinity, Satan sets up a counterfeit trinity as declared in Revelation.

The dragon (Satan)who gives all His authority to the beast (antichrist His son in imitation of the real Father giving the real son all authority),

Thenthe counterfeit holy spirit in the person of the false prophet who marks all the followers of the antichrist.

Teh bible clearly defines the antichrist as a man.

 

[Marty fox]

The antichrist is a person. As a matter of fact according to Scripture , he is the seed of Satan.

You must remember that Satan is a great counterfeiter. Just as God is a trinity, Satan sets up a counterfeit trinity as declared in Revelation.

The dragon (Satan)who gives all His authority to the beast (antichrist His son in imitation of the real Father giving the real son all authority),

Thenthe counterfeit holy spirit in the person of the false prophet who marks all the followers of the antichrist.

Teh bible clearly defines the antichrist as a man.

The scriptures below clearly show that the antichrist is not just a person

There are only four verses in the entire bible that uses the word antichrist

1 John 2:18
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

 

[CTK]

The antichrist is a person. As a matter of fact according to Scripture , he is the seed of Satan.

You must remember that Satan is a great counterfeiter. Just as God is a trinity, Satan sets up a counterfeit trinity as declared in Revelation.

The dragon (Satan)who gives all His authority to the beast (antichrist His son in imitation of the real Father giving the real son all authority),

Thenthe counterfeit holy spirit in the person of the false prophet who marks all the followers of the antichrist.

Teh bible clearly defines the antichrist as a man.

Please tell me where the verse is for this? Thanks.