Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[CTK]

Well I would disagree that the “rest of the dead” are in graves, I think they are spiritually dead but physically alive.

ok and thanks.. what is telling you that?

 

[grafted branch]

ok and thanks.. what is telling you that?

If they are physically dead then you have the problem of them being physically resurrected to come to life again. This leads to them being killed again which is an impossibility.

A person who is spiritually dead doesn’t need a physical resurrection to come to life. When the Jews have their blindness in part lifted, they live again spiritually. I believe that is what is being conveyed when the rest of the dead lived again after the thousand years were finished.

 

[Davidpt]

I actually agree with most of what you’re saying, the old Jerusalem falls, and is replaced with New Jerusalem. For the Jews, in the first century, who believed, once the old Jerusalem fell it wasn’t rebuilt. New Jerusalem had to have been what replaced it.

Our main disagreement would be on when these things take place.

Here's your dilemma, though. In 70 AD old Jerusalem was literally destroyed. In the 20th century old Jerusalem was literally rebuilt. And you can't get past that fact unless want to insist that the Jerusalem that exists in that region resembles a new Jerusalem, one that can't be destroyed. Keeping in mind, once Christ returns the NJ will no longer be meaning spiritually and unseen and applied like it is in the here and now. When it appears in the future it will be meaning in a literal sense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If they are physically dead then you have the problem of them being physically resurrected to come to life again. This leads to them being killed again which is an impossibility.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Do you think those who will be bodily resurrected unto condemnation will be killed again?

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

A person who is spiritually dead doesn’t need a physical resurrection to come to life. When the Jews have their blindness in part lifted, they live again spiritually. I believe that is what is being conveyed when the rest of the dead lived again after the thousand years were finished.

That's not even close to being correct. The rest of the dead are shown in Revelation 20:11-15 to be condemned to the lake of fire after the thousand years. That lines up with passages like Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 having dead unbelievers being bodily resurrected unto "shame and everlasting contempt" and "condemnation".

 

[Davidpt]

1. At Christ’s Return (Revelation 19:19-21):
   • The beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire (final and permanent).
   • The wicked alive at His return are killed physically (not yet judged). (FIRST DEATH -PHYSICAL)

Comment: I don't believe anyone has an issue with the above.

I wouldn't bet on that. Amils, for example, might disagree with this---The wicked alive at His return are killed physically (not yet judged)---meaning with what I have underlined.

1. After the Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10):
   • The wicked dead are resurrected to join Satan’s final rebellion. (FIRST RESURRECTION OF WICKED)
   • Fire from heaven devours their rebellion (ends their physical presence again). Gog / Magog (SECOND DEATH OF WICKED)
   • Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

Comment: I don't believe anyone has an issue with the above.

You must not be reading some of these posts in this thread if you think that.

 

[grafted branch]

Here's your dilemma, though. In 70 AD old Jerusalem was literately destroyed. In the 20th century old Jerusalem was literally rebuilt. And you can't get past that fact unless want to insist that the Jerusalem that exists in that region resembles a new Jerusalem, one that can't be destroyed. Keeping in mind, once Christ returns the NJ will no longer be meaning spiritually and unseen and applied like it is in the here and now. When it appears in the future it will be meaning in a literal sense.

It’s not a dilemma though, our citizenship is currently in New Jerusalem not a physical Jerusalem. You are assuming that just because a literal city was rebuilt that it now has relevance. If the Jews started sacrificing lambs again it wouldn’t be relevant either.

A literal New Jerusalem city coming down when Christ returns is a possibility that I’m not arguing against but the millennium itself was already fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here, for one.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

Then per the following in Revelation.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Where do any of those even hint at a thousand year period of time on earth following the judgment that they reference? According to Matthew 25:31-46, all people will either inherit eternal life or everlasting punishment at that time, which is when Jesus comes with His angels. Where does that passage even hint at such a thing as a thousand year period of time on earth following the judgment? With all believers inheriting eternal life at that time and all unbelievers being cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", who exactly would populate the earth during the supposed future thousand years?

 

[grafted branch]

I don't understand what you're saying here. Do you think those who will be bodily resurrected unto condemnation will be killed again?

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Revelation 20:5 says But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

The thousand years are finished then Satan is loosed. That is also when the rest of the dead live again. Are you suggesting that there are resurrected people walking around during Satans little season? Or do you insert a gap (like the gap in between the 69th and the 70th week) in between the end of the thousand years and the GWTJ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I wouldn't bet on that. Amils, for example, might disagree with this---The wicked alive at His return are killed physically (not yet judged)---meaning with what I have underlined.

Why would we Amils disagree with that? The wicked living will first be physically killed at His return and then will be resurrected and judged. That is portrayed in Revelation 20:9-15.

 

[CTK]

If they are physically dead then you have the problem of them being physically resurrected to come to life again. This leads to them being killed again which is an impossibility.

A person who is spiritually dead doesn’t need a physical resurrection to come to life. When the Jews have their blindness in part lifted, they live again spiritually. I believe that is what is being conveyed when the rest of the dead lived again after the thousand years were finished.

Ok and thanks... here is how I understand the end times.... at His return, Jesus will take those who are believers - those that have already died and those still alive with HIm. They will be with Him for 1000 years. However, also at His return, those alive who have not repented and rejected Him will be destroyed noted in 19:21

Thus, there are only two groups - those with Christ with Him for 1000 years and those in the graves. There are no living peoples on the earth during this 1000 years, and they all would / will have experienced a physical death. After the 10o00 years, there is only one group that must be resurrected - all of those that are in the graves who have rejected Jesus as their Lord and Savior. They will be resurrected, judged and found to in the book of life. It is this time they will have their second death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20:5 says But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

The thousand years are finished then Satan is loosed. That is also when the rest of the dead live again.

No. It may not specifically say it, but the dead live not again not only after the thousand years, but after Satan's little season as well. They are resurrected to be judged "to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2) and to "condemnation" (John 5:28-29) in the lake of fire.

Are you suggesting that there are resurrected people walking around during Satans little season?

Of course not. You are in error thinking they are resurrected right after the thousand years ends. No, they are resurrected after the thousand years AND after Satan's little season and are then judged, as portrayed in Revelation 20.

Or do you insert a gap (like the gap in between the 69th and the 70th week) in between the end of the thousand years and the GWTJ?

Only Satan's little season, however long that is, occurs between the end of the thousand years and the GWTJ.

 

[CTK]

I wouldn't bet on that. Amils, for example, might disagree with this---The wicked alive at His return are killed physically (not yet judged)---meaning with what I have underlined.



You must not be reading some of these posts in this thread if you think that.

Thanks, but that is the purpose for mentioning this the way it was.... to isolate each step and then to be able to discuss each issue separately should they disagree,

 

[grafted branch]

Ok and thanks... here is how I understand the end times.... at His return, Jesus will take those who are believers - those that have already died and those still alive with HIm. They will be with Him for 1000 years. However, also at His return, those alive who have not repented and rejected Him will be destroyed noted in 19:21

Thus, there are only two groups - those with Christ with Him for 1000 years and those in the graves. There are no living peoples on the earth during this 1000 years, and they all would / will have experienced a physical death. After the 10o00 years, there is only one group that must be resurrected - all of those that are in the graves who have rejected Jesus as their Lord and Savior. They will be resurrected, judged and found to in the book of life. It is this time they will have their second death.

Ok, I think we are far apart on this so I don’t think I can be much help in the area of the scriptures.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok and thanks... here is how I understand the end times.... at His return, Jesus will take those who are believers - those that have already died and those still alive with HIm. They will be with Him for 1000 years. However, also at His return, those alive who have not repented and rejected Him will be destroyed noted in 19:21

Thus, there are only two groups - those with Christ with Him for 1000 years and those in the graves. There are no living peoples on the earth during this 1000 years,

No living peoples on the earth during that time? That's what SDAs believe. Who would be those who number "as the sand of the sea" from "the four quarters of the earth" that come up against "the camp of the saints" during Satan's little season after the thousand years ends in that case?

 

[grafted branch]

No. It may not specifically say it, but the dead live not again not only after the thousand years, but after Satan's little season as well. They are resurrected to be judged "to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2) and to "condemnation" (John 5:28-29) in the lake of fire.

Ok, it may not specifically say it but people insert a gap in the 70 weeks. What are the rules you use to judge whether a gap needs to be inserted or not?

Of course not. You are in error thinking they are resurrected right after the thousand years ends. No, they are resurrected after the thousand years AND after Satan's little season and are then judged, as portrayed in Revelation 20.

It doesn’t say they are resurrected, it says they lived again. A spiritually dead person can lived without a physical resurrection.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok, it may not specifically say it but people insert a gap in the 70 weeks. What are the rules you use to judge whether a gap needs to be inserted or not?

In this case, you can see the description of the dead being judged in Revelation 20:11-15. That occurs after Satan's little season. In order to be judged, the dead have to be resurrected first. So, it's obvious to me that the rest of the dead are resurrected and judged after Satan's little season since it doesn't show them as being judged until after that. Other scripture indicates that the dead will be judged immediately following their resurrection (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29).

It doesn’t say they are resurrected, it says they lived again.

What do you think it means to be resurrected? To live again after previously being dead, right?

A spiritually dead person can lived without a physical resurrection.

It's not talking about spiritually dead people in Revelation 20 later coming spiritually alive. John said he sees the souls of those who had been physically killed, so them living again is in the context of them being bodily resurrected.

 

[Davidpt]

Why would we Amils disagree with that? The wicked living will first be physically killed at His return and then will be resurrected and judged. That is portrayed in Revelation 20:9-15.

But I think he is meaning that a millennium follows Revelation 19 and that they are not judged until after the millennium that follows the 2nd coming. Can't see Amils agreeing with that. I don't think he fully grasps that Premil is not the only view, that there are other views, such as Amil.

 

[Davidpt]

LOL. What do you think it means to be resurrected? To live again after previously being dead, right?

Then you argue that Revelation 20:4---and they lived--is not meaning the same thing you argue it is meaning here.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. If these don't live again until the thousand years are finished, this obviously means someone else already lived again before the thousand years are finished. Except your doctrine denies that, apparently. After all, how does it make good sense to say the rest do not live again until, unless someone already lived again prior to that?

 

[grafted branch]

In this case, you can see the description of the dead being judged in Revelation 20:11-15. That occurs after Satan's little season. In order to be judged, the dead have to be resurrected first. So, it's obvious to me that the rest of the dead are resurrected and judged after Satan's little season since it doesn't show them as being judged until after that. Other scripture indicates that the dead will be judged immediately following their resurrection (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29).

That’s the same argument people use to insert a gap between week 69 and 70. They claim they read verses pertaining to week 70 and it’s obvious to them a gap has to be inserted.

If I’m not mistaken you have argued in the past against a gap in the 70 weeks by claiming there are no gaps anywhere else in the Bible. For the record, are you admitting the Bible does have time gaps that need to be inserted?

LOL. What do you think it means to be resurrected? To live again after previously being dead, right?

lol, it means they recognize Jesus as the Messiah, which doesn’t require a physical resurrection. Before you became a Christian you were dead in your trespasses and sins, right?

It's not talking about spiritually dead people in Revelation 20 later coming spiritually alive. John said he sees the souls of those who had been physically killed, so them living again is in the context of them being bodily resurrected.

Yes it is talking about spirituality dead people else you agree with placing gaps in the Bible.

John doesn’t say he sees the souls of those who have been physically killed, that’s your assumption. It says they were beheaded <3990> which means to cut off with an ax, it doesn’t necessarily mean to be physically killed.

Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

The Jews who kept observing the old covenant were beheaded in that they cut off their Messiah.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, …

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But I think he is meaning that a millennium follows Revelation 19 and that they are not judged until after the millennium that follows the 2nd coming. Can't see Amils agreeing with that.

Of course we don't agree with that, but it wasn't stated like that. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

I don't think he fully grasps that Premil is not the only view, that there are other views, such as Amil.

That's possible. I'm not sure how someone can take part in a forum like this and not be aware of Amil since Amil vs. Premil threads are created fairly often, but maybe that's the case for some.