Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[ewq1938]

My denomination?

All.

John is seeing a panorama of events and is focusing on various aspects of what he sees. He is giving us 'snatches of information' as he watches this panorama unfold. This is not a strict timeline of events.

The second death implies a second resurrection. This is the resurrection applying to the wicked.

Nope. The second death is final with no resurrection which is why scripture never speaks fo a resurrection for the second death.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.





The resurrection of the wicked is what loosens Satan from his prison of circumstances....he now has people to tempt and deceive....

No, the resurrection of the unsaved hasn't happened at the timeframe of those verses. The people satan deceives are alive, not having died the first death yet.

by implication it means the wicked are resurrected. Rev. 20:8 reveal his objective.

The GWT event is about these resurrected wicked having their lives reviewed and the reason they are in the situation they are in before, in madness, they attack the New Jerusalem that has come down from God and is now visible for all the wicked to see. They want to take it by force.

NJ is still in heaven before the GWTJ. The city is old Jerusalem and the ppl that surround it do it BEFORE the unsaved dead are resurrected.

The camp of the saints is the New Jerusalem.

No, it's not. It is a camp next to old Jerusalem. NJ does not come down until John sees the new Earth. NJ is NEVER on the old Earth.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[quietthinker]

Nope. The second death is final with no resurrection which is why scripture never speaks fo a resurrection for the second death.

I am not saying what you have concluded from my statement.

As for the rest of your objections, I will leave you with them. Why? Because we see from different paradigms.....and just as you have concluded erroneously from what I have said, so you will with anything else. I have no interest in engaging from the back foot.

If your objective is to discover why and how I see, make it known, however if your objective is to tell without me making an enquiry, I have no interest, it is all old hat for me.

 

[CTK]

Well, this is the simple list of verses in revelation that I had identified earlier (a couple of times) and where I asked if anyone might go throught these four points and identify one or more of the comments (in bold) that are in error. Thus, one might be willing to inform me of the reason it is not another resurrection, it maybe a symbolic meaning, or some other reason... But within Revelation 19 - 20, these four points are mentioned that may describe the resurrection of the dead and their subsequent judgement. They can only be resurrected ONCE and they can only be destroyed ONCE... so there there MUST be one of the four below that cannot be interpreted as such....

Once again, if you can focus on these four points only and give your opinion.... the topic for the last week had taken a left turn and appears to have run its course so I still want to hear your thoughts on these verses below... thanks.

1. At Christ’s Return (Revelation 19:19-21):
   • The beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire (final and permanent).
   • The wicked alive at His return are killed physically (not yet judged). (FIRST DEATH -PHYSICAL)
2. During the Millennium (Revelation 20:1-6):
   • The righteous reign with Christ.
   • The wicked dead remain in their graves.
3. After the Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10):
   • The wicked dead are resurrected to join Satan’s final rebellion. (FIRST RESURRECTION OF WICKED IN CHRIST)
   • Fire from heaven devours their rebellion (ends their physical presence again). Gog / Magog (SECOND DEATH OF WICKED IN CHRIST)
   • Satan is cast into the lake of fire.
4. The Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15):
   • The wicked are resurrected and judged according to their deeds. (SECOND RESURRECTION OF WICKED IN CHRIST AFTER MILLENIUM)
   • They are cast into the lake of fire, symbolizing eternal separation from God. (THIRD DEATH OF WICKED IN CHRIST)

 

[ewq1938]

Well, this is the simple list of verses in revelation that I had identified earlier (a couple of times) and where I asked if anyone might go throught these four points and identify one or more of the comments (in bold) that are in error. Thus, one might be willing to inform me of the reason it is not another resurrection, it maybe a symbolic meaning, or some other reason... But within Revelation 19 - 20, these four points are mentioned that may describe the resurrection of the dead and their subsequent judgement. They can only be resurrected ONCE and they can only be destroyed ONCE... so there there MUST be one of the four below that cannot be interpreted as such....

Once again, if you can focus on these four points only and give your opinion.... the topic for the last week had taken a left turn and appears to have run its course so I still want to hear your thoughts on these verses below... thanks.

1. 
   
2. After the Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10):
   • The wicked dead are resurrected to join Satan’s final rebellion. (FIRST RESURRECTION OF WICKED IN CHRIST)

The wicked dead are resurrected AFTER satan's rebellion army is burned at Jerusalem. That's means the wicked dead are still dead when the city is surrounded.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This is BEFORE the wicked dead are resurrected, found in the timeframe of verses 12 and 13.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This is when the wicked dead rise, and it's after the fire deaths of satan's army. satan isn't even around anymore when the wicked dead are resurrected.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, this is the simple list of verses in revelation that I had identified earlier (a couple of times) and where I asked if anyone might go throught these four points and identify one or more of the comments (in bold) that are in error. Thus, one might be willing to inform me of the reason it is not another resurrection, it maybe a symbolic meaning, or some other reason... But within Revelation 19 - 20, these four points are mentioned that may describe the resurrection of the dead and their subsequent judgement. They can only be resurrected ONCE and they can only be destroyed ONCE... so there there MUST be one of the four below that cannot be interpreted as such....

Once again, if you can focus on these four points only and give your opinion.... the topic for the last week had taken a left turn and appears to have run its course so I still want to hear your thoughts on these verses below... thanks.

1. At Christ’s Return (Revelation 19:19-21):
   • The beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire (final and permanent).
   • The wicked alive at His return are killed physically (not yet judged). (FIRST DEATH -PHYSICAL)
2. During the Millennium (Revelation 20:1-6):
   • The righteous reign with Christ.
   • The wicked dead remain in their graves.
3. After the Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10):
   • The wicked dead are resurrected to join Satan’s final rebellion. (FIRST RESURRECTION OF WICKED IN CHRIST)
   • Fire from heaven devours their rebellion (ends their physical presence again). Gog / Magog (SECOND DEATH OF WICKED IN CHRIST)
   • Satan is cast into the lake of fire.
4. The Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15):
   • The wicked are resurrected and judged according to their deeds. (SECOND RESURRECTION OF WICKED IN CHRIST AFTER MILLENIUM)
   • They are cast into the lake of fire, symbolizing eternal separation from God. (THIRD DEATH OF WICKED IN CHRIST)

There is also no such thing as the wicked dead in Christ, nor a second resurrection or third death. None of those things come from the bible.

 

[CTK]

The wicked dead are resurrected AFTER satan's rebellion army is burned at Jerusalem. That's means the wicked dead are still dead when the city is surrounded.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This is BEFORE the wicked dead are resurrected, found in the timeframe of verses 12 and 13.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This is when the wicked dead rise, and it's after the fire deaths of satan's army. satan isn't even around anymore when the wicked dead are resurrected.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Here is your verse from above .... is this when the dead in Christ are destroyed --- and devoured them?

 

[Douggg]

After the Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10):

• The wicked dead are resurrected to join Satan’s final rebellion. (FIRST RESURRECTION OF WICKED IN CHRIST)
• Fire from heaven devours their rebellion (ends their physical presence again). Gog / Magog (SECOND DEATH OF WICKED IN CHRIST)

CTK, no wicked are resurrected to take part in Satan's final deception of the nations rebellion. There will not be two resurrections of the wicked.

The persons who take part in the final rebellion of the nations will be born during the millennium.

The Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15):

• The wicked are resurrected and judged according to their deeds. (SECOND RESURRECTION OF WICKED IN CHRIST AFTER MILLENIUM)
• They are cast into the lake of fire, symbolizing eternal separation from God. (THIRD DEATH OF WICKED IN CHRIST)

CTK, those resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment, are both the saved and unsaved that had not been previously resurrected.

There is no such thing as a second resurrection for anyone. Nor a third death for anyone.

At the Great White Throne Judgment those who's name is not found in the book of life - will be cast into the lake of fire.
Those who's name is found in the book of life - will be given eternal life everlasting bodies to continue throughout eternity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are going to be three resurrections.

1. The rapture/resurrection event for Christians - before the great tribulation begins. Could take place today even.
....do not have to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment.

2. The resurrection of the martyred Great Tribulation saints. Revelation 20:4-6.
....do not have to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment.


3. The resurrection of the rest of the dead - which will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment.

a. includes saved persons who did not participate in either 1. or 2. - live forever into eternity.
b. includes all of the wicked and unsaved persons - who receive the second death - cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Here is your verse from above .... is this when the dead in Christ are destroyed --- and devoured them?

The dead in Christ are resurrected to eternal life. Not destroyed.

 

[tailgator]

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Here is your verse from above .... is this when the dead in Christ are destroyed --- and devoured them?

Good grief.

The saints who are resurected in revelation 20 do not suffer a second death.They only die once and that is when they are beheaded for their witness of Jesus.

It is Gog and the nations who invade the land of Israel that is destroyed.


Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,​

 

[grafted branch]

CTK, no wicked are resurrected to take part in Satan's final deception of the nations rebellion. There will not be two resurrections of the wicked.

The persons who take part in the final rebellion of the nations will be born during the millennium.

Are you suggesting that the rest of the physical dead lived not again until Satan’s little season was finished instead of the millennium being finished?

If that’s the case then someone who read Revelation 20:5 during Satan’s little season would rightly conclude that the Bible was false, just like we could conclude the Bible false if Israel remained blind in part until the GWTJ, long after the fullness of Gentiles comes in.

 

[Davidpt]

Are you suggesting that the rest of the physical dead lived not again until Satan’s little season was finished instead of the millennium being finished?

If that’s the case then someone who read Revelation 20:5 during Satan’s little season would rightly conclude that the Bible was false, just like we could conclude the Bible false if Israel remained blind in part until the GWTJ, long after the fullness of Gentiles comes in.

A) But Trump served as President not again until his first term as President was finished.

B) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.


Show us the difference between A) and B). Keeping in mind that per A) there is a 4 year gap between when his first term is finished and his 2nd term begins. The same logic applies to B). There is a gap between when the thousand years finish and that the rest of the dead live again. That gap being satan's little season in this case.

Now explain to us why the gap per A) does not cause A) to be false but the gap per B) causes B) to be false?

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Here is your verse from above .... is this when the dead in Christ are destroyed --- and devoured them?

The dead in Christ have salvation so you are misusing that term. The ones dying of fire are the unsaved, but they are unsaved alive not unsaved dead prior to this burning. This fire kills them for the first time, then they will be resurrected in the second resurrection to be judged at the GWTJ and cast into the LOF to die the second death.

 

[ewq1938]

Are you suggesting that the rest of the physical dead lived not again until Satan’s little season was finished instead of the millennium being finished?

The scripture does not say the unsaved dead immediately resurrect when the thousand years end. They will live again after it ends, but after the little season, rebellion and satan's casting into the LOF. Only after that shall the resurrection of damnation take place.

 

[grafted branch]

A) But Trump served as President not again until his first term as President was finished.

B) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.


Show us the difference between A) and B). Keeping in mind that per A) there is a 4 year gap between when his first term is finished and his 2nd term begins. The same logic applies to B). There is a gap between when the thousand years finish and that the rest of the dead live again. That gap being satan's little season in this case.

Now explain to us why the gap per A) does not cause A) to be false but the gap per B) causes B) to be false?

First off, it’s somewhat deceptive to make statements like statement A) if you knew ahead of time that Trump would serve two non-consecutive terms. A person trying to convey the truth in an “unsealed” manner would say A) But Trump served as President not again until Biden’s term as President was finished.

Alright, besides that, let’s say I agree with the idea of inserting gaps when my view needs one to make sense.

In Revelation 20:3 it says “till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season”. Since we have no problems inserting gaps then it doesn’t matter whether the thousand years are literal or not, I can insert an unknown time gap after the thousand years before Satan is loosed and make the millennium any time span I want. I can argue the actual literal thousand years are over and we are in the time gap before Satan is loosed, thus essentially proving the Amil view of a non-literal thousand years.

 

[grafted branch]

The scripture does not say the unsaved dead immediately resurrect when the thousand years end. They will live again after it ends, but after the little season, rebellion and satan's casting into the LOF. Only after that shall the resurrection of damnation take place.

Well I can say Israel will remain blind in part up until the GWTJ, even though the Bible say until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

I can say nobody needs to flee when they see the AOD, they can flee at anytime after the AOD, when they get around to it.

I can insert a gap of time after the millennium before Satan is loosed to essentially create a two or three thousand years millennium.

I can say the two witnesses hang around for another several hundred years after their testimony.

There are far too many problems with inserting gaps.

 

[ewq1938]

Well I can say Israel will remain blind in part up until the GWTJ, even though the Bible say until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

I can say nobody needs to flee when they see the AOD, they can flee at anytime after the AOD, when they get around to it.

I can insert a gap of time after the millennium before Satan is loosed to essentially create a two or three thousand years millennium.

I can say the two witnesses hang around for another several hundred years after their testimony.

There are far too many problems with inserting gaps.

The issue isn't a gap, but inserting the idea of "immediately" into the text.

Barnes:

Until the thousand years were finished - Then all who were truly the children of God, though some might be less eminent than others had been, would come into remembrance, and would have their proper place in the rewards of heaven. The “language” here is not necessarily to be interpreted as meaning that they would be raised up then, or would live then, whatever may be true on that point. It is merely an emphatic mode of affirming that “up to float period they would not live” in the sense in which it is affirmed that the others would. But it is not affirmed that they would even then “live” immediately.


This is true because we see the dead coming from various places AFTER the little season in verse 13 thus according to scripture the resurrection of the unsaved is not until after the little season, rebellion and satan cast into the LOF have finished.

 

[Douggg]

Are you suggesting that the rest of the physical dead lived not again until Satan’s little season was finished instead of the millennium being finished?

Here is what the text says...

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

So the thousand years, the millennium, will be finished. Then Satan will be loosed out of the bottomless pit prison to deceive the nations to make an attack on the camp of the saints (Israel).

Which, God will destroy those attackers with fire from heaven. And in Revelation 20:10, Satan will be cast into the lake of fire.

Then the resurrection of the rest of the dead (i.e. everyone who had not taken part in rapture/resurrection event, nor taken part in the resurrection of the martyred Great Tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-6) to stand before the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

[grafted branch]

The issue isn't a gap, but inserting the idea of "immediately" into the text.

Barnes:

Until the thousand years were finished - Then all who were truly the children of God, though some might be less eminent than others had been, would come into remembrance, and would have their proper place in the rewards of heaven. The “language” here is not necessarily to be interpreted as meaning that they would be raised up then, or would live then, whatever may be true on that point. It is merely an emphatic mode of affirming that “up to float period they would not live” in the sense in which it is affirmed that the others would. But it is not affirmed that they would even then “live” immediately.


This is true because we see the dead coming from various places AFTER the little season in verse 13 thus according to scripture the resurrection of the unsaved is not until after the little season, rebellion and satan cast into the LOF have finished.

Israel remaining blind in part isn’t immediately removed, it doesn’t say to immediately flee when you see the AOD, the two witnesses aren’t immediately overcome and killed.

That’s the whole problem, if we accept the hermeneutics of inserting gaps when we need them I can start making the Bible say all kinds of things.

Here’s an alternative, the dead are spiritually dead, no resurrection needed to make them live again after the thousand years.

 

[grafted branch]

Here is what the text says...

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

So the thousand years, the millennium, will be finished. Then Satan will be loosed out of the bottomless pit prison to deceive the nations to make an attack on the camp of the saints (Israel).

Which, God will destroy those attackers with fire from heaven. And in Revelation 20:10, Satan will be cast into the lake of fire.

Then the resurrection of the rest of the dead (i.e. everyone who had not taken part in rapture/resurrection event, nor taken part in the resurrection of the martyred Great Tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-6) to stand before the Great White Throne Judgement.

But you are assuming the rest of the dead are physically dead and not spiritually dead. If you would accept that idea you wouldn’t need a resurrection to make the spiritually dead live again prior to Satan’s little season and you can keep the physical resurrection at the GWTJ.

 

[Douggg]

@grafted branch

Please look at my chart. The shaded in grey area to the right is the little season of Satan's final deception.