Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[grafted branch]

Is that even a reasonable option, though? I wouldn't think so. Therefore, what you proposed per the 2nd option appears to be the more reasonable option.

Yea, I suppose someone could just claim Moab still existed when A4E was around then they disappeared after that but no matter how you look at it it’s still speculation that would need additional support to be credible.

I haven’t studied this, but if the Bible gave information on what a Moabite is, other than linage, that would be a key to help understand this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why don't you already know that can't be true? You are obviously intelligent, therefore, you are without excuse. Just use your brain here for a moment.

What kind of ridiculous response is this? I was not being rude to you at all and this is how you respond to me? What is wrong with you? I'm without excuse? What in the world are you even talking about? What was wrong with what I asked? It was not an unintelligent question at all. I was asking sincerely if there was any evidence about such a battle or not. I don't know for sure what kind of evidence is out there. Good grief, are you having a bad day or what? What is your deal? You sure talk tough for someone who supposedly has self esteem issues.

After all, these events are involving the last days. If the last days didn't even begin until Christ came first 2000 years ago, how then is it logical that there could already be the last days that came and went before the last days even arrive first?

There is no specific reference to "the last days" in Ezekiel 38 and 39. It references "the latter years", but the context of that doesn't necessarily have to refer to the latter years of history.

Like I pointed out in another post to someone recently, last days require a last day eventually, otherwise they are not the last days.

The phrase "the last days" is not there anywhere in Ezekiel 38-39. So, you are adding something to the text that isn't even there. You should be talking to yourself about not having any excuse, not me.

You have pointed out to me in the past that I only think I'm being logical about things but in reality I'm not being logical about anything. As if, anyone that thinks there could already be the last days before the last days arrive, that that is perfectly reasonable, thus logical.

I never said that! Stop making false accusations! If "the last days" was referenced in Ezekiel 38-39 you would have a point, but it is not. The phrase "the last days" is consistently used in scripture to refer to the last time period of history (regardless of how long it is). What the phrase "the latter years" means in Ezekiel 38 is debatable and depends on the context. The latter years of what exactly? It doesn't specify that.

If it's logical what was the last day of those last days? And how could they be the last days to begin with if there are some more last days, different last days that follow those last days?

You waste so much time making strawman arguments. If I was sure that Ezekiel 38 and 39 involved the last days, then of course I wouldn't ask if it could have been fulfilled literally in the past. Good grief. You say I'm intelligent but then talk to me as if I'm not. If you really think that I am, then you should know that I would not be stupid enough to claim that something that occurs in the last days was fulfilled already before the last days even began. My goodness. You know, I try to treat you nice and try to respect you as much as I can, but you make it very hard sometimes

In the Bible the last days, in both the OT and NT, obviously imply the final days leading up to when 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. And once that passage is fulfilled we know that everything involving judgment is behind us and that there will never be any judgments ever again, meaning in regards to punishments.

Do you think I don't already know this? Again, you say I'm intelligent and then proceed to talk to me as if I'm not. Make up your mind.

I don't care how you choose to interpret Ezekiel 38-39, after all, those 2 chapters are difficult to interpret.

Yes, they are. So, can you explain to me why you would use those chapters and scripture like Zechariah 14 as part of the primary evidence to support your doctrine? Shouldn't our doctrine be primarily based on clear, straightforward scripture that we then use to help interpret more difficult scripture like this?

I don't have a problem admitting they are difficult to interpret.

I have to admit, I'm a little bit surprised by you saying that since you have always used passages like that and Zechariah 14 as the primary support for your premil doctrine. Even though it makes no sense to have the primary support for your doctrine based on difficult passages like those.

Do yourself a favor, though. Just apply it to the correct era of time at least.

Don't talk to me like this if you want to continue talking to me. You falsely act as if the phrase "the last days" is referenced in Ezekiel 38 and 39 and it is not. So, you need to be more honest. Yes, the phrase "the latter years" is used, but how we do we know for certainty that phrase refers to the latter years of time itself? It might be, but not necessarily. It could refer to the latter years of the old covenant time period or something like that. I'm willing to admit that I'm not sure, so that's why I asked the question that I did. With all that said, I tend to think "the latter years" most likely refers to the same time period as "the last days", but there isn't other scripture containing the phrase "the latter years" that we can point to for verification of that like we can with the phrase "the last days" since I only find the phrase "the latter years" in one verse (Ezekiel 38:8) in all of scripture.

Edit: Yes, I know it also refers to "the latter days" in verse 16, but I would say the same about that phrase as far as not having scripture to confirm what time period that is referring to like we do with the phrase "the last days". There are no NT references to "the latter days".

None of it can be involving before Christ came if these 2 chapters are involving the last days and that the last days can't even begin until Christ came first.

You sure are repetitive. You say the same thing with slightly different words over and over again. Are you aware of that?

As to the last verse in Ezekiel 39, none of that is true until after God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude first. Therefore, to apply that last verse to the day of Pentecost per Acts 2 is nonsencical unless God already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude prior to that.

Obviously. Who said otherwise? That's why I asked if there was any evidence for such a battle since I know there would had to have been such a battle previously in order for Ezekiel 39:29 to be referring to the day of Pentecost. Hello? I know these things, David. You don't need to talk to me like I'm stupid. Why couldn't you have given me the benefit of the doubt about this instead of responding with this rude post?

Only someone with poor reading comprehension could take the last verse in Ezekiel 39 to be meaning before God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude rather than after He does that.

Obviously. And I wasn't doing that. You decided that I'm so stupid that I somehow concluded that an event that had to occur during the last days occurred before the last days. That's not what I was doing since I'm not sure if Ezekiel 38 and 39 is referring to the last days or not. If "the latter years" is the same thing as "the last days", then that would mean it is. But, that is debatable.

The point being, since Ezekiel 39:29 can't get fulfilled until God has executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude first, one can't insist verse 29 was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost while agreeing God hasn't executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude yet. That is a contradiction.

No kidding! You think I don't know this? It's as if you don't even know who you're talking to and as if you haven't been talking to me about these things for many years. Unbelievable.

The only way verse 29 can be involving Acts 2 is if God already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude prior to when Acts 2 is meaning. But then you end up with another contradiction.

These things in Ezekiel 38-39 are involving the last days and that the last days can't even begin until Christ comes first, which He already did. Which means if verse 29 can be applied to Acts 2, and that the last days can't begin until Christ has come first, this would mean God executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude sometime after Christ was born but prior to when Acts 2 is meaning. Which of course is preposterous. It's clues like this that should tell any thinking person that Acts 2 can't fit verse 29.

Not sure why I keep responding to each thing you say since you just keep repeating yourself. You could have saved a good amount of time if you didn't just keep repeating the same thing over and over.

You know, in the past you get upset when I show confidence about an opinion I'm sharing since you are so lacking in confidence a lot of the time. It offends you since you wish you had the same confidence about your beliefs. But, when I acknowledge that I'm not sure about what something means like Ezekiel 38 and 39 you still take offense! I can't win with you no matter what I do.

 

[Douggg]

@grafted branch

When I read Jeremiah 48 regarding Moab, the impression I get is that in ancient times the area of Moab had a sizeable population - but ended up being defeated and its citizens taken away from the region to never return as being a nation anymore.

I think that part of Jordan is presently sparsely populated.

Verse 47 seems to indicate that in the latter days, that God will restore that region to have a population again. With who, I don't know. I think that is still future. Maybe after Jesus returns with his saints.

 

[grafted branch]

@grafted branch

When I read Jeremiah 48 regarding Moab, the impression I get is that in ancient times the area of Moab had a sizeable population - but ended up being defeated and its citizens taken away from the region to never return as being a nation anymore.

I think that part of Jordan is presently sparsely populated.

Verse 47 seems to indicate that in the latter days, that God will restore that region to have a population again. With who, I don't know. I think that is still future. Maybe after Jesus returns with his saints.

So then you would be interpreting “Moab” as a geographical region rather than a race of people, correct?

 

[Douggg]

So then you would be interpreting “Moab” as a geographical region rather than a race of people, correct?

I think Moab is a geographic location, yes. And the ancient inhabitants who had certain qualities that God disliked very much were called "Moabites". https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=moabites

I think Moab, the location, in the latter days will be repopulated with a different type of people.... who will be looked upon favorably by God... although they too may ???? be called Moabites. Or maybe not. I do not know.

Similar to there were ancient Israelite's who did wicked things and got into idol worship and sacrificing children to Molech. (the ancient Moabites worshiped a god they called Chemosh.) And look what Solomon did - 1Kings11:7.

But there will be Israelite's in the latter days who will be looked upon favorably by God.

What do you think ?

 

[grafted branch]

I think Moab is a geographic location, yes. And the ancient inhabitants who had certain qualities that God disliked very much were called "Moabites". https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=moabites

I think Moab, the location, in the latter days will be repopulated with a different type of people.... who will be looked upon favorably by God... although they too may ???? be called Moabites. Or maybe not. I do not know.

Similar to there were ancient Israelite's who did wicked things and got into idol worship and sacrificing children to Molech. (the ancient Moabites worshiped a god they called Chemosh.) And look what Solomon did - 1Kings11:7.

But there will be Israelite's in the latter days who will be looked upon favorably by God.

What do you think ?

I really need to take a closer look at this, what I’m seeing here is that the term “Moabite” seems to be referring to a race of people. The term “Moab” could be a location that is defined in the Bible but I can’t take the time right now to do a search on this.

I know “Israelite” is not referring to a location where “Israel” can be referring to a location. I’ll make another post this evening after I’ve looked into it.

 

[grafted branch]

What do you think ?

From Biblehub it gives the statement “Moab is traditionally considered to be the land of the descendants of Moab, the son of Lot by his elder daughter, as recorded in Genesis 19:37”. I certainly can’t argue against the word “Moab” meaning a piece of land.

The boundaries of Moab are not precisely defined in the Bible but Biblehub gives this definition for where the land of Moab is … Located east of the Dead Sea, Moab is bordered by the Arnon River to the north and the Zered River to the south.

Here’s something interesting that I found on Biblewisdomhub.org “Moab is not called anything different now. Moab was an ancient kingdom located in present-day Jordan. The region where Moab once existed is still known by the same name today.”



Ok Doug, I don’t agree with your view but I suppose a reasonable argument can be made that Moab has existed up to today. I personally don’t think it is the Moab in Jeremiah 48:47 but I’m sure you will think it is.

I guess there’s something else you can add to your charts or maybe make a map this time.

 

[Douggg]

The boundaries of Moab are not precisely defined in the Bible but Biblehub gives this definition for where the land of Moab is … Located east of the Dead Sea, Moab is bordered by the Arnon River to the north and the Zered River to the south.

While I was doing a google image search on Moab, I saw a bible map that gave some more information the Amon River to the north and the Zered River to the south as being the boundaries for the Sidon (the land of the Ammonites) to the north and Edom (the land of the Edomites) to the south.

This site has some brief explanations of who the Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites were.

Biblical Places on Modern Maps: Jordan

Sometimes reading about he Ammonites, Moabites, or Edomites in the Bible can seem to modern readers much like reading about people from Gondor, Rohan, or Mordor in The Lord of the Rings. I find it…

biblearchaeologyreport.com

 

[Douggg]

I guess there’s something else you can add to your charts or maybe make a map this time.

My charts are geared mostly for timelines. Maps, I usually do a google search to get information.

 

[ewq1938]

There will be "Two Future Resurrections" on "The Last Day" the righteous saved are "Blessed" to be in "The First Resurrection" to eternal life, the second death resurrection has no power over the righteous saved

Not on the same day, and not according to Rev 20 which places a thousand years inbetween the two resurrections.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not familiar with anything saying Jesus will return in the blink of an eye.

This has the same meaning, an instantaneous return:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[ewq1938]

I do not agree with this synopsis. It is not the conclusions that emerge when I read Revelation.

Show how I am wrong then, using the same scriptures I did. The problem is your denomination teaches incorrectly on these matters, which is evident when looking at those exact scriptures which I did and presented.

All denominations are bad, and in error in various ways. It is best to leave them and study the scriptures without their influences.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm not familiar with anything saying Jesus will return in the blink of an eye. What I do know is that Paul says we will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
You have misunderstood the very text you are quoting about the 'blink of an eye'

Jesus said it will be like the lightning that shines from the east even to the west. It is the brightness (shining) that Jesus refers to, not its speed.

Matthew 24:27
'For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.'

In other words, it will cover the whole sky.

Please respond to the believers resurrection at the coming of Jesus Christ and the words

(Afterward They That Are Christ's At His Coming)

(Then Cometh The End)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 52-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[quietthinker]

This has the same meaning, an instantaneous return:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It's talking of the 'shining' , not its speed. It will shine from east to west. In other words the whole sky will be alive with angelic beings coming with Jesus.

'.....then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.' Matthew 24:30-31

 

[quietthinker]

Show how I am wrong then, using the same scriptures I did. The problem is your denomination teaches incorrectly on these matters, which is evident when looking at those exact scriptures which I did and presented.

All denominations are bad, and in error in various ways. It is best to leave them and study the scriptures without their influences.

My denomination?

John is seeing a panorama of events and is focusing on various aspects of what he sees. He is giving us 'snatches of information' as he watches this panorama unfold. This is not a strict timeline of events.

The second death implies a second resurrection. This is the resurrection applying to the wicked.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.





The resurrection of the wicked is what loosens Satan from his prison of circumstances....he now has people to tempt and deceive....by implication it means the wicked are resurrected. Rev. 20:8 reveal his objective.

The GWT event is about these resurrected wicked having their lives reviewed and the reason they are in the situation they are in before, in madness, they attack the New Jerusalem that has come down from God and is now visible for all the wicked to see. They want to take it by force. The camp of the saints is the New Jerusalem. (a metaphor for God's people.) It appears the NJ has a double application. This is evident in Chapter 21.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[quietthinker]

Please respond to the believers resurrection at the coming of Jesus Christ and the words

(Afterward They That Are Christ's At His Coming)

(Then Cometh The End)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 52-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

what is it that you are asking?

 

[Truth7t7]

what is it that you are asking?

Please respond to the believers resurrection at the coming of Jesus Christ and the words below, "What Is Your Interpretation"?

(Afterward They That Are Christ's At His Coming)

(Then Cometh The End)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 52-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[Davidpt]

Please respond to the believers resurrection at the coming of Jesus Christ and the words below, "What Is Your Interpretation"?

(Afterward They That Are Christ's At His Coming)

(Then Cometh The End)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 52-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

If anything, everyone should already know that what is recorded in verse 24 can not occur until Revelation 20:11-15 has been fulfilled first. And everyone should already know that Revelation 20:11-15 can't be fulfilled in a single 24 hour day or less. Obviously then, verses 23-24 are compressed and are not meant to be taken to mean the same 24 hour day He returns is the same day verse 24 is fulfilled. There is a gap between those things, obviously. But let's just throw common sense out the window and keep on instisting that the same 24 hour day He returns is the same day verse 24 is fulfilled. Which would mean, for one, that Jesus judges billions and billions and billions of people one by one, and that He does this from start to finish during the same 24 hour day He returned during.

I don't know what is wrong with some of you all's thinking at times? Some of you act as if no passages in the Bible can ever be compressed, thus involve gaps. That if it says, then cometh the end, that it has to mean the very same day He returns even though it defies logic if that is true.

 

[quietthinker]

Please respond to the believers resurrection at the coming of Jesus Christ and the words below, "What Is Your Interpretation"?

(Afterward They That Are Christ's At His Coming)

(Then Cometh The End)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 52-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I read it as self explanatory.
21-22 We die because of Adam, we live because of Jesus
23 Jesus was the first man to be raised to life, then God's people are raised to life.
24 The end of human history as we know it.

 

[Truth7t7]

If anything, everyone should already know that what is recorded in verse 24 can not occur until Revelation 20:11-15 has been fulfilled first. And everyone should already know that Revelation 20:11-15 can't be fulfilled in a single 24 hour day or less. Obviously then, verses 23-24 are compressed and are not meant to be taken to mean the same 24 hour day He returns is the same day verse 24 is fulfilled. There is a gap between those things, obviously. But let's just throw common sense out the window and keep on instisting that the same 24 hour day He returns is the same day verse 24 is fulfilled. Which would mean, for one, that Jesus judges billions and billions and billions of people one by one, and that He does this from start to finish during the same 24 hour day He returned during.

I don't know what is wrong with some of you all's thinking at times? Some of you act as if no passages in the Bible can ever be compressed, thus involve gaps. That if it says, then cometh the end, that it has to mean the very same day He returns even though it defies logic if that is true.

Davidpt places a 1,000 year gap between verses 23-24 below to suit his false doctrine of a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus "False" Your desired gap doesn't exist as you add to scripture

Scripture clearly teaches in context that the dead in christ will be raised "Immortal" and at this time the "Last Enemy Death" is "Destroyed" The End

Scripture below teaches that when Jesus comes the resurrection takes place (Then Cometh The End) it teaches that this event takes place in (The Blink Of The Eye) The End (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 52-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory) The End

Revelation 20:14KJV
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.