DOES BELIEF THAT ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED MEAN WE CAN SIN?

[Behold]

Our job is to do everything possible every day to crucify the "self" (ego), learn about The Law

Reader..

Why would a Christian want to waste time learning about Moses's Law, that has been removed from the Christian?

What a waste of time, to chase what is not relevant to a born again Believer.

So, dont waste your time meditating on Moses Law and Commandments.........instead spend your time learning what Paul teaches about the Law.

= He teaches that the strength of the Law is the power of sin.....so, you want to avoid that, unless you want to be this one.. ."confess, then do another carnal deed, repeat".

Paul teaches that "Christ has redeemed the born again from the curse of the Law".. .so, you dont want to get back under that curse of the Law, after Christ has redeemed you from it.

And Paul teaches that the born again : "is not under the law, but under Grace"..

So, when we find someone who is trying to put the LAW back on you, then that is because they dont understand The Cross of Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey. If we choose to continue obeying Lucifer/Satan then we are his children. If we instead choose to obey Father (God), then we are His Children. We are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey (1 John 3:4-11).

this has nothing to do with salvation. many people claim to be saved, yet follow satan and his false gospel.

you will need to do better than this

Yes, but that is not an unconditional promise so, as is widely and mistakenly taught in most "Christian" denominations.

Sorry bro but you are wrong.

1. John 1. There is one condition, receive him
John 3, there is one condition. receive him in faith
John 4 - One condition, ask and he will give living water flowing to eternal life
john 5. See and believe
John 6. and john 7, again, the only condition (if you call it that) is to receive him in faith.

As Jesus himself said, he was not sent to judge, but to save, He died for everyone (the world) so whoever believes (recieved in faith) in the cross WILL (not might) never perish and HAS (not may have) eternal life

Matthew 19:16-30
19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have Eternal Life?
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou ME good? [there is] none good but One, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the Commandments.
19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness (tell lies),
19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and put it in the purse (kitty), and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into The Kingdom of heaven.
19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into The Kingdom of God.
19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the Throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel.
19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit Everlasting Life.
19:30 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last [shall be] first.


As above please. Christ did not come here in the body of Jesus, and suffer the agony of the cross, to grant us the freedom to sin with impunity. He came to pay for our PAST sins, and to provide was with a renewed opportunity to return to God and keep His Law/Commandments.

Your right,

Those born of God do not sin as a lifestyle. But they still sin and fall short.

again, stop pumping your chest. Where you stand right now you are condemned unless you recieve his grace gift.

You can not earn salvation. you already lost that possibility the moment you committed your first sin.

Romans 3:23-25
3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
3:24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath fore-ordained [to be] an atonement through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

The past sins in this passage is the sins committed by those from Adam until Christ.

Not your past. All of your sins weer future when Christ died.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Here's one that is speaking about those who have been born again... and what happens to them if they backslide

The OSAS peoples (and the calvinists) come up with all kinds of hokey pokey to try and get out of this one... cause all they got is hokey pokey

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

This is why we see this instruction in the Word of the Lord:

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He doesn't take it back EG. We give it up.

It does not matter sis. I can try to give it back all I want. He will not take it back. He gave it to me, he paid for it by his sons death.. Its mine, according to his promise

I think you're referring to the ECFs.
Yeah. I never read them either.
But, boy, it opened up a whole new world.
What do we do when we can't agree?
Like you and I for instance...
one has to be right and one has to be wrong.
How to know??
How about asking those that were taught by the Apostles?
Seems like a good way.

I was not there. I see alot of writings by people who claim they were taught by the apostles. But I also read pauls letters,, and how many personal taught by him fell away and brought heresy in the church.

Your right, one of us is right, and one is not right. so what do we do?

it all falls back on the word. When we stand in front of God. God will nto say, did you listen to those taught by the apostles. he will say I gave you my word.. Why did you not believe it.

Like I asked another member re the same subject matter:
Who do you think compiled the NT?

God did

Right...the ECF's......and the ones I read come way before even them!

ECF's?

So I have to leave here for a while and I want to wish you a very joyous Christmas,
and to your family.

And I want to say how nice and civil you are and we always had good conversations.
I really appreciate this...maybe if more were like you I wouldn't be so burned out from
forum talk. It could get frustrating.
Blessings
GG

Thank you so much, And you are civil too. Thats why I do not mind talking to you.. we do not get heated like some do.

I still have your creation email opened at home, i will get to it when things calm down, I promise

Have a merry Christmas sis

 

[A Freeman]

Reader..

Why would a Christian want to waste time learning about Moses's Law, that has been removed from the Christian?

What a waste of time, to chase what is not relevant to a born again Believer.

So, dont waste your time meditating on Moses Law and Commandments.........instead spend your time learning what Paul teaches about the Law.

= He teaches that the strength of the Law is the power of sin.....so, you want to avoid that, unless you want to be this one.. ."confess, then do another carnal deed, repeat".

Paul teaches that "Christ has redeemed the born again from the curse of the Law".. .so, you dont want to get back under that curse of the Law, after Christ has redeemed you from it.

And Paul teaches that the born again : "is not under the law, but under Grace"..

So, when we find someone who is trying to put the LAW back on you, then that is because they dont understand The Cross of Christ.

Only those who love and believe Christ would want to wisely spend their time learning about God's PERFECT Law, given to us to protect us from evil and to set and keep us FREE. Free from sin, free from oppression and injustice that we are plagued with today, precisely because we haven't kept The Law.

King of kings' Bible - John 8:25 (John 8:34 KJV)
8:25 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the prisoner of sin.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.

Matthew 7:21-24
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into The Kingdom of heaven; ONLY he that doeth the Will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in That Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work INEQUITY (SIN).
7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a Rock (the Truth):

 

[Dan Clarkston]

King of kings' Bible - John 8:25 (John 8:34 KJV)
8:25 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the prisoner of sin.

The OSAS peoples reject Jesus' sayings... and they pervert what the Lord Jesus said thru the Apostle Paul... to their own destruction. Sad.

2 Peter 3:15,16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Behold]

Only those who love and believe Christ would want to wisely spend their time learning about God's PERFECT Law,

Only those who are trying to save themselves and do not understand The Cross, are obsessing on OT Law, and seem to have not noticed there is a NT and a New Covenant.

Christians were given by JESUS.......one commandment.

You should spent your time with that one......not with the OT Moses stuff.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It sounds like you are seeing this backwards.

Lets see,

I trust God and his promise

You trust yourself and how good you think you are.

and I have it backwards?

NONE of us have anything to brag about, particularly at this late hour.

You are bragging an awful lot from what I see.

Each of us have had thousands of years, and many human lifetimes to learn how to be good (Gen. 1:26),

do what? I have only been on this earth for 59 years. and I am still learning, and will continue to learn until i die.

so that we can go home, to heaven. And yet we are all still here, doing the same things over and over (falling for satanic organized religions, their sales-staffs and their sales pitches) and expecting it to somehow turn out differently. No one has EVER gone to heaven following that approach (John 3:13).

Sounds like that is what you have done

What has been shared is that we NEED to change our behavior to return to being in God's Good Graces, i.e. to show Him that we love and appreciate His Love, Mercy, Patience and Long-suffering with our hard-hearts and stiff-necks, and that we genuinely do NOT wish to continue working against Him.

1st. I can;t change, God has to change me
2nd. even if I could change, I would still be held guilty and accountable

What do you think it means to DO God's Will? Would God ever will any of us to be selfish and/or do evil to one another? Have we not been told by Christ that we MUST learn to take up our cross and learn to crucify it (the ego/"self") DAILY if we are going to truly follow Him (Luke 9:23; 14:26-27)?

Nope. thats why he sent his son. Not to judge the world. but to save it.

But it appears you are trying to save yourself

It is the ego/"self" that is offended by the sharing of truth with them. Even when it's something as simple as that we MUST learn to play well with others before any of us will be allowed to leave this prison reform school for the criminally insane.

I am not offended by the truth.

But I know God is offended by what you are espousing.

How much is YOUR eternal life worth? Is there anything that isn't worth giving up for it?

It was worth the death of God, On the cross.

I could not pay that debt, in this lifetime or the next.

And as far as "spit(ting) on grace", it's those that refuse to straighten up and start keeping the Commandments that are doing that.

John 14:15; 21-24
14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.

14:21 He that hath my COMMANDments, and KEEPETH them, HE it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
14:22 Jude saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will obey my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
14:24 He that loveth me not obeyeth not my sayings: and the Truth which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Yes, You are spitting on grace.

if it is of grace it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

You espouse works..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Here's one that is speaking about those who have been born again... and what happens to them if they backslide

The OSAS peoples (and the calvinists) come up with all kinds of hokey pokey to try and get out of this one... cause all they got is hokey pokey View attachment 54821

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

This is why we see this instruction in the Word of the Lord:

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Your right,
Imagine having the gospel of salvation, and think you are saved. then falling back to what you truly trust.

And having an eternity to think about this

it will be worse for you..

 

[A Freeman]

this has nothing to do with salvation. many people claim to be saved, yet follow satan and his false gospel.

you will need to do better than this

Sorry bro but you are wrong.

1. John 1. There is one condition, receive him
John 3, there is one condition. receive him in faith
John 4 - One condition, ask and he will give living water flowing to eternal life
john 5. See and believe
John 6. and john 7, again, the only condition (if you call it that) is to receive him in faith.

As Jesus himself said, he was not sent to judge, but to save, He died for everyone (the world) so whoever believes (recieved in faith) in the cross WILL (not might) never perish and HAS (not may have) eternal life

Your right,

Those born of God do not sin as a lifestyle. But they still sin and fall short.

again, stop pumping your chest. Where you stand right now you are condemned unless you recieve his grace gift.

You can not earn salvation. you already lost that possibility the moment you committed your first sin.

The past sins in this passage is the sins committed by those from Adam until Christ.

Not your past. All of your sins weer future when Christ died.

Anyone claiming to be reborn/born again from above (from God) and still claiming it's okay to sin/break The Law, is NOT being honest with themselves nor with anyone else.

1 John 3:7-11
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, BECAUSE he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the Beginning (Alpha), that we should love one another.

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of The Law.

Salvation is predicated upon obedience to God and His Law (Matt. 5:17-19; Matt. 19:16-26; John 14:21-24).

Acts 5:29-33
5:29 Then Peter and the [other] Apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
5:31 Him hath God exalted with His right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
5:32 And we are His witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey Him.
5:33 When they heard [that], they were cut [to the heart], and took counsel to slay them.

To keep it simple as possible:

God wants us to love and obey Him, and to believe Christ. And what did Christ teach? A complete return to God's Law.

John 7:16-17
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
7:17 If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Anyone who claims differently, i.e. that it's okay to continue disobeying God (sinning/breaking His Law/committing crimes) is very obviously listening to Satan (the Opposer) whether they acknowledge that FACT or not.

Satan created ALL organized religion so that he could teach his made-up doctrines and traditions, to keep people from obeying God so that they join Satan in The Fire on the Last Day. So anyone who is still in open defiance/rebellion against God and His Law on the Last Day IS going to burn for it.

It can't be made any clearer than that.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The OSAS peoples reject Jesus' sayings... and they pervert what the Lord Jesus said thru the Apostle Paul... to their own destruction. Sad.

2 Peter 3:15,16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Aww. poor Guy.

we praise God for saving us

You on the other hand, well keep pumping your chest like the pharisee. You will meet God one day. You will find out what happens when you boast in self not God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Anyone claiming to be reborn/born again from above (from God) and still claiming it's okay to sin/break The Law, is NOT being honest with themselves nor with anyone else.

so your saying you have arrived and are perfect (glorified) right here and right now. you no longer sin?

1 John 3:7-11
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, BECAUSE he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the Beginning (Alpha), that we should love one another.

Amen, Whoever is born of God can not live in sin,

But the same author said if we claim to be without sin we are deceived. are you deceived?

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of The Law.

Your right, when I love (which I had no ability to before I was saved) I do not harm.

Sadly. I am not perfect. so there are times I fail to use Gods love. and I suffer for it as does those I hurt..


but God still loves me. Thats what Keeps me going, and stops me from having to decieve myself that I have made it, I keep pushing forward.

Salvation is predicated upon obedience to God and His Law (Matt. 5:17-19; Matt. 19:16-26; John 14:21-24).

Acts 5:29-33
5:29 Then Peter and the [other] Apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
5:31 Him hath God exalted with His right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
5:32 And we are His witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey Him.
5:33 When they heard [that], they were cut [to the heart], and took counsel to slay them.

No. The law could nto save anyone. the law exposes out sin and points to christ.

if you think you keep the law. you are decieved, period

To keep it simple as possible:

God wants us to love and obey Him, and to believe Christ. And what did Christ teach? A complete return to God's Law.

yes he does. But this is not what saves us, We need saved because we have not done this.

John 7:16-17
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
7:17 If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Anyone who claims differently, i.e. that it's okay to continue disobeying God (sinning/breaking His Law/committing crimes) is very obviously listening to Satan (the Opposer) whether they acknowledge that FACT or not.

Satan created ALL organized religion so that he could teach his made-up doctrines and traditions, to keep people from obeying God so that they join Satan in The Fire on the Last Day. So anyone who is still in open defiance/rebellion against God and His Law on the Last Day IS going to burn for it.

It can't be made any clearer than that.

dude, You are decieved. If you think you no longer sin.

stop excusing your sin, and cry out to God for forgiveness.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Anyone claiming to be reborn/born again from above (from God) and still claiming it's okay to sin/break The Law, is NOT being honest with themselves nor with anyone else.

Not only that but they are purveyors of false doctrine making them obedient to the devil as a child of the devil.

 

[Behold]

Not only that but they are purveyors of false doctrine making them obedient to the devil as a child of the devil.

Explain why this is true.

"Jesus who saved you, always keeps you saved....... no matter how you behave or think, later".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not only that but they are purveyors of false doctrine making them obedient to the devil as a child of the devil.

the blind leading the blind..

 

[marks]

Anyone claiming to be reborn/born again from above (from God) and still claiming it's okay to sin/break The Law, is NOT being honest with themselves nor with anyone else.

Is anyone actually making that claim?

I mean, if we are talking about some kind of general sense of permissiveness to sin, I don't know any Christians I'd characterize that way.

But if, as I suspect is the case, the disagreement concerns the consequences of sin to the Christian, i.e., the loss of salvation, then I'd turn this right back to you.

Anyone who is thinking that they are not committing sins still is NOT being honest with themselves, or lacks self awareness. So then if sin costs you your salvation, who among us is saved?

Not even Paul, while saying he wasn't aware of anything wrong he was doing, he still kept back from declaring himself sinless, acknowledging only Jesus has the place to determine such things.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is anyone actually making that claim?

I mean, if we are talking about some kind of general sense of permissiveness to sin, I don't know any Christians I'd characterize that way.

But if, as I suspect is the case, the disagreement concerns the consequences of sin to the Christian, i.e., the loss of salvation, then I'd turn this right back to you.

Anyone who is thinking that they are not committing sins still is NOT being honest with themselves, or lacks self awareness.

Not even Paul, while saying he wasn't aware of anything wrong he was doing, he still kept back from declaring himself sinless, acknowledging only Jesus has the place to determine such things.

Much love!

Amen, As the great apostle said, "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"

 

[marks]

Amen, As the great apostle said, "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"

What does that mean, to "have sin"? Does it mean to "commit sin"? If so, why not say that? Does it mean the sin that is endemic to humanity, that condemns us all, from which we need to be saved? That's more what I'm thinking.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

Amen, As the great apostle said, "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"

Here is the truth.

If a Christian says they have sin, then they are not telling the truth.
This is because Jesus has our sin, and we have become "The imputed Righteousness of Christ".

A.) God's righteousness has no sin in it.. and all the born again are become """"THE Righteousness of God in Christ".

So then.....1 Jn 1:9, is not talking to the born again., and John does not have sin = because Jesus on the Cross has John's sin.

This should be obvious, .......but what seems not to be obvious to many Christians, is that not every verse in the NT is aimed at you.

Reader..
These Apostles were preachers, and sometimes they are preaching to unbelievers.... and then 3 verses later, or in the next Chapter they are teaching Christians.
So, You have to learn where (rightly divide) this is occurring or you'll put yourself under a verse that is not for the Believer.

.........................................."well behold, why does John say "WE"....,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Because, That is how preachers preach..

Listen, if i tell 60 unbelievers that "we all need the Lord"..

Well.. I Already HAVE THE LORD......but they dont.....and yet i just said.>"WE, need Him, as if im like them"..

So, if i say to someone who says....>>"i dont buy that sin nonsense... im as good as you... i dong have sin.. im just human".

And i say..."listen, if we say we dont have sin.. then ""..

See that? I dont have sin.. . but they do......and i just said..>>"If WE say we dont".

Its like THAT.......and that is what JOHN is doing with those unbelievers in 1 John1

Its what the Apostle is doing in Hebrews 10:26

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What does that mean, to "have sin"? Does it mean to "commit sin"? If so, why not say that? Does it mean the sin that is endemic to humanity, that condemns us all, from which we need to be saved? That's more what I'm thinking.

Much love!

I just take the whole passage and look at it in context.

if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and there is no truth in us.

Have is echo - it means to have or possess, It is in the greek it is present tense, and it is active. It literally says, if we claim we presently do not have any sin in our lives. We are decieved.

he continues

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This sin that we DO HAVE, if we confess it (literally acknowledge it to him) he is faithful and just,

he continues

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

If we are like the pharisee who claimed he kept the law since birth and had no sin. We make God out to be a liar. Now this last phrase I think fits more aptly with what you are thinking. As it is this phrase which shows we have sin and need to be saved.

also. In verse 8. John spoke of himself. “If we” I think we can both agree, John was already saved