DOES BELIEF THAT ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED MEAN WE CAN SIN?

[mailmandan]

Hey Dan...
Paul meant general types of work must be done.
It's The Law that we don't follow.

Anyway, I read the above, and you know I won't agree.
I guess everyone understands scripture their very own way.

I'm not responding because I'm getting tired of this and I'm taking a
break...a very long break...maybe permanent. We'll see.

I just want to leave you with this idea.....
The church has been around for 2 thousand years.
All this stuff we debate has come about in the last 4 or 5 hundred years...
and some of the stuff we debate came about just about 2 hundred years ago.
OSAS comes from the reformed belief that God predestines every person to heaven
or hell and so the have PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS. Guess IF God chose them,
then He'll keep them saved. This isn't what John Calvin taught..at least not compeltely.
But I'm not getting into that either. Think of the JWs, Mormonism, Adventists, and more.
The theologians before the reformation could not have all been wrong about everything.

I do want to wish you a joyous Christmas and also to your family.
GG

I wish you and your family a Merry Christmas!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful

The Historical and "Scriptural Basis For Eternal Security​

The doctrine of eternal security is generally attributed to John Calvin, whose followers are called Calvinists or members of the Reformed tradition. But even Calvinists acknowledge that much of their doctrine originates with St. Augustine of Hippo (Algeria in Northern Africa), the Catholic (or pre-Catholic) theologian of the 4th century (354-430). He did quite a bit of writing on "Original Sin, which the reformers, Martin Luther and John Calvin, both borrowed.
Calvin "systemized his beliefs in the Institutes of Religion, a rather large work that serves as the basis for what is now known as Calvinism. His teachings regarding salvation can be summarized with the following famous acronym representing the "Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP:

1. T = Total Depravity, also called "total inability," asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin (derived from Augustine's "original sin). People are not by nature inclined to love God but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. This eliminates "freewill (see below).
2. U = Unlimited Election asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself, not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Instead, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God sovereignly extends mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen.
3. L = Limited Atonement, also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement," asserts that Jesus' atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus' death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all.
4. I = Irresistible Grace, also called "efficacious grace," asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.
5. P = Perseverance of the Saints asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return to the faith.[1] This is the point known today as "Once Saved, Always Saved. They can never be lost.

Comparison among Protestants​

This table from Reformed Christianity - Wikipedia summarizes the classical views of three Protestant beliefs about salvation.

​

Topic​	Calvinism​	Lutheranism​	Arminianism​
Human will​	Total Depravity without free will permanently due to divine sovereignty​	Total Depravity without free will until spiritual regeneration​	Depravity does not prevent free will​
Election​	Unconditional election to salvation with those outside the elect foreordained to damnation (double-predestination)[35]​	Unconditional predestination to salvation for the elect​	Conditional election in view of foreseen faith or unbelief​
Justification​	Justification is limited to those predestined to salvation, completed at Christ's death​	Justification by faith alone, completed at Christ's death.​	Justification made possible for all through Christ's death, but only completed upon choosing faith in Jesus​
Conversion​	Monergistic, through the inner calling of the Holy Spirit, irresistible​	Monergistic, through the means of grace, resistible​	Synergistic, resistible due to the common grace of free will​
Preservation and apostasy​	Perseverance of the saints: the eternally elect in Christ will necessarily persevere in faith​	Falling away is possible, but God gives assurance of preservation.​	Preservation is conditional upon continued faith in Christ; with the possibility of a final apostasy.​

Hey sis,

I do not follow John Calvin, nore do I follow the history books. as history itself has shown that it is a very poor judge of who is right or wrong (the ones in charge write history. and they write it in a way that supports them)

The book of Jon is a great book to prove eternal security, Start at chapter 1 and continue until chapter 7. How many times did John himself. or jesus say that the person who is made children of God will never perish, and they will live forever. How many times did they say they have passed from death to life. and passed from judgment to life.


The bible is your history book. study it, because it will not let you down.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful last of 4 pages


These doctrines have been argued among Protestants for several centuries. Presently there are Christians who call themselves "3-point, "4-point, and 5-point Calvinists. Some denominations (e.g., many Baptists) could be classified as "1-point Calvinists, simply because they usually reject all of the first four points and hold only to Point Five, the "Perseverance of the Saints, i.e., "once saved, always saved. But many major Calvinist teachers point out that Point Five is impossible without the other four points. They all stand or fall together.

The Surefire Proof That We Have Freewill​

It should be obvious that most of the above differences hinge on the issue of "freewill and the ability to choose morally. A great inconsistency arises when people want to believe in freewill, but then try to believe in eternal security also. The result then is that freewill allows a person to choose to believe in Christ and thereby be saved, but later choose not to believe in Christ but retain his salvation. And yet, by biblical definition, only a believer in Christ is saved. There simply is no salvation for those who do not believe in Christ. Salvation for unbelievers would contradict everything in the New Testament!
So how do we prove freewill? This is a surefire method:

• First of all, it is obvious that in the Garden of Eden, God gave humans the power and freewill to make a choice: To eat or not eat the fruit. Even Calvinism must admit this existence of freewill at the beginning.
• Adam and Eve chose to eat of the fruit, fell into sin, became depraved, etc. Now Calvinism says that this depravity was so total and complete that, since that time, "all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. That is, even if we still had freewill, that depraved freewill can by necessity choose only to go a downward way, an evil path, etc., and is completely unable to choose God.
• However, that is preposterous because thousands of years later, God Himself again gives the Israelites a chance to make a choice for Him and His way: "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days (Deuteronomy 30:15-20).
• It's pretty obvious here that the Lord God of heaven believes that these people actually are able to choose Him and His way. Otherwise, if their ability to choose God and righteousness was so impaired and "totally depraved, God would be grossly unfair and utterly mean-spirited to give them a "choice that they could not possibly make! He would be unrealistically expecting "blood out of a turnip, then judging and punishing the turnip for failing to do something it could not possibly do! And there are many other instances in the Bible where God gives fallen people a chance to exercise their freewill and expects them to choose Him. We can choose, and because of this, the whole first, foundational assumption of Calvinism, i.e., the "T in the TULIP, comes crashing down! And the rest of the theory falls with it.

and there's more.......but I didn't give the source...
just like you never do.

again see above.

I get my history from the word of God.

the word of God says I have passed from death to life. it says I will never hunger, never thirst, i will live forever. i will never die, I have eternal life, and I will be raised on the last day. It says I have passed from Judgement to life. It says he will never leave nor forsake me, it says I can not be lost, because where can I go that he is not their also.


we are saved by grace through faith. We are saved from the penalty of sin. God does not save us, then take it back, Because it is his reputation at stake. His omniscience at stake. his power and his love is at stake.

 

[A Freeman]

Wow.
So now assurance of salvation is a lack of humility? - LOL
Mark our own "report cards"?
It seems you are preaching salvation by works. Is that right?

How are such things measured?
How could you assume that you have enough works to be saved?
Could you have done more? (of course) Did you do enough? (who knows?)
Just have to wait and see? What if you come up short? (toast)

[

Eternal life really isn't a laughing matter though, is it?

And what terminology would you prefer to use to describe judging one's self (Matt. 7:1-4), when that job has been assigned to Christ alone (John 5:22)?

Our job is to do everything possible every day to crucify the "self" (ego), learn about The Law (i.e. learn what is just and good in Father's Eyes), and apply it in our daily lives, to prevent harming another or our environment. And as far as how much do we need to do...why would we ever stop striving for perfection? The closer we draw to perfection (Father - Matt. 5:48), the closer He will draw to us (James 4:8).

What we all have assurance of is that Father is just and fair in ALL things, and that everyone who should survive Judgment Day will do so. The judgment is NOT our to make.

As far as attempting to argue the false dichotomy of "faith v. works", it should be properly understood that there is no such thing as faith without doing good (Godly) works.

James 2:17-26
2:17 Even so FAITH, if it hath not WORKS, is DEAD, being alone.
2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will SHOW thee my faith BY my works.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils (liars) also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain (worthless) man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD?
2:21 Was not our father justified by WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar (and God made him your example - Sura 16:123; 60:4)?
2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS was faith (trust in God) MADE PERFECT?
2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed ONLY God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.
2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.

This is why Christ told us we will all be judged by our works:

Matthew 16:24-27
16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.

Revelation 20:12-15
20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their works.
20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the "Lake of Fire". This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the "Lake of Fire".

Ephesians 2:8-10
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to DO good WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (do them - good works).

We will never do enough good to make up for all of the evil we have done, which is exactly why we should be constantly striving to do good everywhere possible, to show our appreciation for the free gifts Father has mercifully bestowed upon us, rather than bragging to others how we have judged ourselves to be "saved" when no one has ever gone to heaven.

 

[St. SteVen]

learn about The Law

Please do.
Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

We will never do enough good to make up for all of the evil we have done, which is exactly why we should be constantly striving to do good everywhere possible, to show our appreciation for the free gifts Father has mercifully bestowed upon us, rather than bragging to others how we have judged ourselves to be "saved" when no one has ever gone to heaven.

Enjoy your eternal insecurity.

[

 

[A Freeman]

I love this scripture. But probably for a completely different reason than you might.

Jesus taught us that loving your enemies is godly behavior.
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect." - vs 48

That being the case, what will God do with his enemies?

[

God has very mercifully given us 6000 years to rehabilitate here on Earth, so we may learn the basic, universal principles that each of us MUST learn, to be allowed to return home, to heaven.

However, that grace period is almost up and, as it very plainly warns us throughout Scripture, those who refuse to be rehabilitated will be cast into The Fire, with Lucifer/Satan.

 

[A Freeman]

Matthew 25:31-46
25:31 When the Son of Man shall come in his glory, and all the Holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the Throne of his glory:
25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit The Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into Everlasting Fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (YOU that do not DO God's Will):
25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into Life Eternal.

 

[St. SteVen]

I love this scripture. But probably for a completely different reason than you might.

Jesus taught us that loving your enemies is godly behavior.
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect." - vs 48

That being the case, what will God do with his enemies?

Some would make God out to be worse then a pagan, or a tax collector. (traitor)

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good,
and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others?
Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

God has very mercifully given us 6000 years to rehabilitate here on Earth, so we may learn the basic, universal principles that each of us MUST learn, to be allowed to return home, to heaven.

However, that grace period is almost up and, as it very plainly warns us throughout Scripture, those who refuse to be rehabilitated will be cast into The Fire, with Lucifer/Satan.

Sorry, I cannot accept a gospel that amounts to salvation by our own works.

The only work that saves has already been accomplished on the cross by Jesus Christ.
PAID IN FULL.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

[

 

[A Freeman]

Just feel on this A Freeman...
of course you're right.
Jesus did a lot.
Some don't feel they need to do anything at all.

So now your going to get some dumb questions,
like in post 156.
I'm tired of dumb questions...so I'm leaving for a bit.
Have a joyous Christmas!
GG

What seems profoundly sad, at least to me, is that the sacrifice Christ-Jesus made is held in such low regard by so many. Many actually believe they will be rewarded for continuing to be a criminal (sinner/law-breaker - 1 John 3:4-11), instead of doing everything possible to help Christ eradicate sin (beginning with ourselves), help others and, in doing so, help themselves.

All blessings to you and yours in the new calendar year, and to everyone else here as well.

 

[A Freeman]

1 John 2:1-5
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the atonement for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep His Commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT His Commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is NOT in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Eternal life really isn't a laughing matter though, is it?

And what terminology would you prefer to use to describe judging one's self (Matt. 7:1-4), when that job has been assigned to Christ alone (John 5:22)?

Our job is to do everything possible every day to crucify the "self" (ego), learn about The Law (i.e. learn what is just and good in Father's Eyes), and apply it in our daily lives, to prevent harming another or our environment. And as far as how much do we need to do...why would we ever stop striving for perfection? The closer we draw to perfection (Father - Matt. 5:48), the closer He will draw to us (James 4:8).

What we all have assurance of is that Father is just and fair in ALL things, and that everyone who should survive Judgment Day will do so. The judgment is NOT our to make.

As far as attempting to argue the false dichotomy of "faith v. works", it should be properly understood that there is no such thing as faith without doing good (Godly) works.

James 2:17-26
2:17 Even so FAITH, if it hath not WORKS, is DEAD, being alone.
2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will SHOW thee my faith BY my works.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils (liars) also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain (worthless) man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD?
2:21 Was not our father justified by WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar (and God made him your example - Sura 16:123; 60:4)?
2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS was faith (trust in God) MADE PERFECT?
2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed ONLY God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.
2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.

This is why Christ told us we will all be judged by our works:

Matthew 16:24-27
16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.

Revelation 20:12-15
20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their works.
20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the "Lake of Fire". This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the "Lake of Fire".

Ephesians 2:8-10
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to DO good WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (do them - good works).

We will never do enough good to make up for all of the evil we have done, which is exactly why we should be constantly striving to do good everywhere possible, to show our appreciation for the free gifts Father has mercifully bestowed upon us, rather than bragging to others how we have judged ourselves to be "saved" when no one has ever gone to heaven.

so if we are not saved, what are we?

Did Jesus not himself promise that we have eternal life. and we will not perish?

I am a little confused as to what you are saying here

 

[St. SteVen]

However, that grace period is almost up and, as it very plainly warns us throughout Scripture, those who refuse to be rehabilitated will be cast into The Fire, with Lucifer/Satan.

The refiner’s fire is inescapable. We will all be restored.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into Life Eternal.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

[

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God has very mercifully given us 6000 years to rehabilitate here on Earth, so we may learn the basic, universal principles that each of us MUST learn, to be allowed to return home, to heaven.

However, that grace period is almost up and, as it very plainly warns us throughout Scripture, those who refuse to be rehabilitated will be cast into The Fire, with Lucifer/Satan.

how can you rehabilitate yourself?

We are dead in sin, Not alive trying to rehabilitate in sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What seems profoundly sad, at least to me, is that the sacrifice Christ-Jesus made is held in such low regard by so many. Many actually believe they will be rewarded for continuing to be a criminal (sinner/law-breaker - 1 John 3:4-11), instead of doing everything possible to help Christ eradicate sin (beginning with ourselves), help others and, in doing so, help themselves.

All blessings to you and yours in the new calendar year, and to everyone else here as well.

what is extremely profound to me is that people who claim they look to God. and see that they are worthy of something, anything.

God said if we have stumbled in just one part of the law. we are guilty.

so how can we who still fall short of God. be worthy of anything.

why do people spit on grace and try to replace it with their works. pumping their chest like the pharisee, screaming at the tax collector.

remember, the sinner went home justified. Not the religious person who thought he was worthy

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1 John 2:1-5
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the atonement for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep His Commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT His Commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is NOT in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

amen.

we who ARE SAVED. keep his word (not perfectly)

Thank you for showing us HOW the saved walk.

Now,. can you show us how we got save to begin with? A good start would be the book of John, especially the first 7 Chapters

 

[A Freeman]

so if we are not saved, what are we?

We are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey. If we choose to continue obeying Lucifer/Satan then we are his children. If we instead choose to obey Father (God), then we are His Children. We are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey (1 John 3:4-11).

Did Jesus not himself promise that we have eternal life. and we will not perish?

Yes, but that is not an unconditional promise so, as is widely and mistakenly taught in most "Christian" denominations.

Matthew 19:16-30
19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have Eternal Life?
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou ME good? [there is] none good but One, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the Commandments.
19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness (tell lies),
19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and put it in the purse (kitty), and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into The Kingdom of heaven.
19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into The Kingdom of God.
19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the Throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel.
19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit Everlasting Life.
19:30 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last [shall be] first.

I am a little confused as to what you are saying here

As above please. Christ did not come here in the body of Jesus, and suffer the agony of the cross, to grant us the freedom to sin with impunity. He came to pay for our PAST sins, and to provide was with a renewed opportunity to return to God and keep His Law/Commandments.

Romans 3:23-25
3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
3:24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath fore-ordained [to be] an atonement through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

 

[GodsGrace]

again see above.

I get my history from the word of God.

the word of God says I have passed from death to life. it says I will never hunger, never thirst, i will live forever. i will never die, I have eternal life, and I will be raised on the last day. It says I have passed from Judgement to life. It says he will never leave nor forsake me, it says I can not be lost, because where can I go that he is not their also.


we are saved by grace through faith. We are saved from the penalty of sin. God does not save us, then take it back, Because it is his reputation at stake. His omniscience at stake. his power and his love is at stake.

He doesn't take it back EG. We give it up.
I think you're referring to the ECFs.
Yeah. I never read them either.
But, boy, it opened up a whole new world.
What do we do when we can't agree?
Like you and I for instance...
one has to be right and one has to be wrong.
How to know??
How about asking those that were taught by the Apostles?
Seems like a good way.

Like I asked another member re the same subject matter:
Who do you think compiled the NT?
Right...the ECF's......and the ones I read come way before even them!

So I have to leave here for a while and I want to wish you a very joyous Christmas,
and to your family.

And I want to say how nice and civil you are and we always had good conversations.
I really appreciate this...maybe if more were like you I wouldn't be so burned out from
forum talk. It could get frustrating.
Blessings
GG

 

[A Freeman]

what is extremely profound to me is that people who claim they look to God. and see that they are worthy of something, anything.

God said if we have stumbled in just one part of the law. we are guilty.

so how can we who still fall short of God. be worthy of anything.

why do people spit on grace and try to replace it with their works. pumping their chest like the pharisee, screaming at the tax collector.

remember, the sinner went home justified. Not the religious person who thought he was worthy

It sounds like you are seeing this backwards.

NONE of us have anything to brag about, particularly at this late hour.

Each of us have had thousands of years, and many human lifetimes to learn how to be good (Gen. 1:26), so that we can go home, to heaven. And yet we are all still here, doing the same things over and over (falling for satanic organized religions, their sales-staffs and their sales pitches) and expecting it to somehow turn out differently. No one has EVER gone to heaven following that approach (John 3:13).

What has been shared is that we NEED to change our behavior to return to being in God's Good Graces, i.e. to show Him that we love and appreciate His Love, Mercy, Patience and Long-suffering with our hard-hearts and stiff-necks, and that we genuinely do NOT wish to continue working against Him.

What do you think it means to DO God's Will? Would God ever will any of us to be selfish and/or do evil to one another? Have we not been told by Christ that we MUST learn to take up our cross and learn to crucify it (the ego/"self") DAILY if we are going to truly follow Him (Luke 9:23; 14:26-27)?

It is the ego/"self" that is offended by the sharing of truth with them. Even when it's something as simple as that we MUST learn to play well with others before any of us will be allowed to leave this prison reform school for the criminally insane.

How much is YOUR eternal life worth? Is there anything that isn't worth giving up for it?

And as far as "spit(ting) on grace", it's those that refuse to straighten up and start keeping the Commandments that are doing that.

John 14:15; 21-24
14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.

14:21 He that hath my COMMANDments, and KEEPETH them, HE it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
14:22 Jude saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will obey my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
14:24 He that loveth me not obeyeth not my sayings: and the Truth which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.