Does the trinity make people right with God?

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MatthewG

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Hello @rockytopva,

Thank you sharing your perspective and your views. Hopefully you didn’t mind me sharing. I’m not trying to battle against anyone or hold any view higher than another. If this is going to stay on the debate section and not moved to the discussion as I requested that is fine.

The topic is “Does the trinity make people right with God?”

My answer would simply be, no it does not.
 

rockytopva

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Hello @rockytopva,

Thank you sharing your perspective and your views. Hopefully you didn’t mind me sharing. I’m not trying to battle against anyone or hold any view higher than another. If this is going to stay on the debate section and not moved to the discussion as I requested that is fine.

The topic is “Does the trinity make people right with God?”

My answer would simply be, no it does not.
What makes people right with God?

8 The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. - Romans 10
 
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MatthewG

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Hello @Ritajanice,

It may not always be the person is insecure with themselves. It could also be a problem with pride, selfishness and those things, could called it passion. It’s understandable people start to “feel” a certain way especially if they have expectations that are not met; which they require especially with people of “power.”

I would say you are right when it comes to walking in the spirit though we can share what we believe to be the truth, and I know I can always be wrong on some things and I can even change my mind on things. Abiding in Christ allows us to be humble and try not to exalt ourselves over others in situations that arise within our passion. To be lowly, and let the Lord do his work through us and to make our best effort to live in peace with one another as long as it possible.

There are some people I don’t have peace with, and those are the ones whom I try not to engage with as it’s better for me to be silent around them because if I do say something or try to converse my flesh will get riled up.

That is why I like using things such as the ignore button, or mute, hide, on some forums because it’s not for my benefit it’s for their own so we don’t end up fighting.
 
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MatthewG

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Hello @rockytopva,

Those are some good passages, they reminded me of the ones from my original post. However, the one you shared in greek there is a word within those passages called homologeo, which means that the mouth confesses with what the heart believes. Anyone can believe in the Lord Jesus, and confess his name but at the same time be lying within their heart.

It reminds me of passages like this;

John 12:42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

~~~

Even though in the face of these passages it begs the question again, where is the heart? Do you need to cast out demons, or prophesy in the name of Jesus, or do mighty works in your name? I do no think so. It does take faith, and that is faithfully believed in the heart, and it is personal and it starts there. Do things overtime sometimes die? According to Jesus they do, concerning the parable of the sower sowing seeds. Sometimes the seed doesn't even make it into the ground and is taken away, sometimes the seed is on rocky ground but gets choked out by the riches and things of the world. Then there is the seed which sprouts and grows and carries onward.

~~
Matthew 13:

1 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

~~

A changed heart, is vital and that comes from learning and growing in whom the Lord Jesus is, and also abiding in Christ, and allowing the Lord Yeshua to work in and through us. To love all people believer or not, and to understand it isn't us who is doing the work but it is the Lord Yeshua whom is doing the work in and through us by the Spirit of Christ.

~~

Romans 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

~~~

Ultimately I would suggest that a heart for God, is something that Yahavah is looking for. Even though we dabble in a world where we have to goto work, take care of family, children. Etc... 1 Samuel 16:7

~~~

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 
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rockytopva

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@MatthewG ... I like the churches of the great awakening. But... Each generation brings something else. So... I am no fan of any church doctrine knowing a generation can arise just as bad as everyone else and still have the same doctrinal mindset that made the previous generation great.
 

MatthewG

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Hello @rockytopva

Just sharing scripture, sir. I don't go to church period. I don't care for church at all. Now if that makes me not right with God, you let me know. Heading on to work now. Mon - Friday 7:30 am - 3:30pm.


Edit: When it comes to church people can attend and go wherever they please. I’m not trying to say church is a bad thing. There are teachings from the pulpit that can sometimes be badly presented; all in all. There are people who preach Christ out of love; and also out of selfish means.

Philippians 1:15 It’s true that some are preaching out of jealousy and rivalry. But others preach about Christ with pure motives.

Just as Paul wrote to the Philippians, I’m happy that Christ Jesus is preached all together and I hope that people seek for truth and they be set free in liberty of the spirit of Christ.
 
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MatthewG

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In this life, you are an individual who makes the choice to have a relationship with God/Yahavah on your own. It’s your own initiative to seek and look for Yahavah in faith or you do not. I haven’t sat and read the Bible in consecutive manners or studied it in a good two years; but I haven’t forgotten what has been presented to me when I did do those things. My desire is to get back into the swing of it though I’ve been saying this to myself off and on for the past several months of getting sober. I’m not ready to. My flesh doesn’t want me to: as it hates it.

Truth is what it is, and it hurts. However the pain of getting back into it must be endured; you can’t always go off the mouth of another person, you must know yourself where you stand before Yahavah, and you both know what’s up. Cause you are your own person. And Yahavah knows the secrets of the heart. I like being able to be open, honest and truthful just as much as my flesh enjoy being manipulative; and to control others.

It’s only Jesus in me that does the good and my flesh that desires the latter; in which a mindset of renewal is in needed to be had. How can one do that though? It’s by the use of the Bible and study, it alters the way we thing and how we address things by the spiritual principles that founded upon within the scriptures.

Where is one’s mind though? Some are expecting an immediate change in scope; some fear there will be an announced one world government, some fear that there will be an nuclear on set of developments which are set forth in our world which only leads to worry, and of course fear and those lead to self persevering notions of the self.

While I come from a background of the poor, uneducated, and incapable of really pleasing everyone. I still don’t have many worry’s of the things previously mentioned. Life is what we know of it and what we make of it is totally on oneself and between oneself and Yahavah is where peace and contentment is founded upon. By the Holy Spirit/ spirit of Christ given to us; we can have hope of going to a heavenly city at the end of life and live life by the spiritual means and not so much the material though I do enjoy and love the material aspects of life we have.

When it comes down to this topic “does the trinity make a person right with God?” The simple answer is no. Faith, and making a decision to look to Yahavah even through times where you feel like he ain’t even there is what is gonna matter in the end.

I think of Jesus on the cross when he says “God why have you forsaken me?” And though at that time God had left him, Jesus continued to still believe his Father would rescue him from death.

The Bible is amazing, it has many answers to many people’s questions and while I believe Jesus has already returned and he put an end to the Old Testament Laws by fulfilling them and them being nailed to the cross. And his raising again by the Holy Spirit.

The trinity is just a mixed baggage for people to go over and over again without going on further in worshiping the Father in spirit and in truth. However even so, those per-suits come at a loss, in my opinion… which leaves things missing out, and instead of seeking out the Father in spirit and in truth there is only confusion and uncertainty along side of even new people coming to the Bible only to have mixed thoughts and traditions fed into their mind which makes me sad.

Alas; even so. I hope all the best and I don’t look down on anyone. It is after all: your own choice.
 

rockytopva

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What would you like God to do that he is not bending over backwards to do for you MD?......or do you think he is withholding peace deliberately and needs to be persuaded to stop withholding?

Hello @rockytopva

Just sharing scripture, sir. I don't go to church period. I don't care for church at all. Now if that makes me not right with God, you let me know. Heading on to work now. Mon - Friday 7:30 am - 3:30pm.


Edit: When it comes to church people can attend and go wherever they please. I’m not trying to say church is a bad thing. There are teachings from the pulpit that can sometimes be badly presented; all in all. There are people who preach Christ out of love; and also out of selfish means.

Philippians 1:15 It’s true that some are preaching out of jealousy and rivalry. But others preach about Christ with pure motives.

Just as Paul wrote to the Philippians, I’m happy that Christ Jesus is preached all together and I hope that people seek for truth and they be set free in liberty of the spirit of Christ.
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart. - Acts 2:46

Continuing daily in good fellowship is key to keeping the man going from spiritual to carnal.
 
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MatthewG

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Hello @rockytopva,

This school esk website: www.cult.love is where I typically get my information from. Even so, I can take what men say and test it by the spirit; the best fellowship is with the Father and with the Lord Jesus, of course fellowshipping with other encouraging believers is a blessing.

Thank you for encouragement and reminders.

“that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬ ‭ESV‬‬
 
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quietthinker

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And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart. - Acts 2:46

Continuing daily in good fellowship is key to keeping the man going from spiritual to carnal.
Good fellowship is fantastic. It is desirable and to be sort after but does it mean we don't challenge each other? does it mean we play the 'nice' card because that's the image a Christian is meant to have?
 

rockytopva

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The excuse of not liking those you find in church??? Unfortunate! Unfortunate indeed! If there are warning signs among so called Christians I cannot say... Hey! We know they are jerks! But they are your jerks!

The Pentecostal Denomination I belong to were all filled with pleasant people in their generation. I too am hard pressed to find good fellowship these days. Especially post covid. I keep reminding myself I have got to be the example I desire to see in others.
 

FearTheLord

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We don't get to pick and choose what we want to believe. That would be a dishonest faith.
 

MatthewG

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Hello to whom it may concern,

Does anyone else have anything to say concerning the topic?
 

amadeus

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I believe in the trinity, but I have never weighed another Christian up against it , however I have seen plenty who do not believe in the trinity do that to those who do……guess it can work both ways.
I came to faith and it was just something I believed deep within me, however It wasn’t something I even thought about , so I don’t consider it was a factor in conversion.
I am with you and I do not believe in the trinity.
 

Wrangler

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i will say this, I do not think belief in the trinity is essential.

Finally, we agree.

But I have a hard time understanding how people can have pure faith in God as redeemer, and a God who paid the sin debt for all mankind, if they think Jesus was but a mere man.
Your statement has an implied premise. God is the redeemer. God is the savior. And he had his agent, his anointed pay the sin debt for all mankind. That's what Scripture says over and over and over again.

On the contrary, rejecting the trinity is essential - for maintaining your rational mind. The trinity is not in Scripture. Therefore, there is no reason to embrace it IF the literal word of God is your standard of truth.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Finally, we agree.


Your statement has an implied premise. God is the redeemer. God is the savior. And he had his agent, his anointed pay the sin debt for all mankind. That's what Scripture says over and over and over again.

On the contrary, rejecting the trinity is essential - for maintaining your rational mind. The trinity is not in Scripture. Therefore, there is no reason to embrace it IF the literal word of God is your standard of truth.
Just fact.

“Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His SpiritHave sent Me.”

17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
 

Wrangler

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Just fact.

“Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His SpiritHave sent Me.”

17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
Proof Jesus is not God. There is the Lord God and there, on his right hand side, is the Lord Jesus.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Proof Jesus is not God. There is the Lord God and there, on his right hand side, is the Lord Jesus.
dude, stop with your nonsense and read the passage I gave you

The lord God said he was sent by the father and his spirit.

Rita, You need to stop just blindly listening to these people and look for yourself. the passage is clear. Its not hard. Just read the passage


Is 48:
I have declared the former things from the beginning;
They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it.
Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.


This is the lord God. For only God can prophecy and those things come to pass. He also is the one who caused them to hear his words. and he is the one who caused the calamity to come upon them



4 Because I knew that you were obstinate,
And your neck was an iron sinew,
And your brow bronze,


Only God can know their true hearts. He knew who they really were.


5 Even from the beginning I have declared it to you;
Before it came to pass I proclaimed it to you,

Lest you should say, ‘My idol has done them,
And my carved image and my molded image
Have commanded them.’


He proclaimed to them in the beginning, less they say their idol told them. again it is only God who prophecies. God says something will happen. and that things happens.

6 “You have heard;
See all this.
And will you not declare it?
I have made you hear new things from this time,
Even hidden things, and you did not know them.
7 They are created now and not from the beginning;
And before this day you have not heard them,
Lest you should say, ‘Of course I knew them.’
8 Surely you did not hear,
Surely you did not know;
Surely from long ago your ear was not opened.
For I knew that you would deal very treacherously,
And were called a transgressor from the womb.

9 “For My name’s sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.

10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.



Again, This can ONLY be God talking. The God of Israel. He refines, He defer's his anger, He has the power to cut them off or keep them, It is for HIS name sake.

God’s Ancient Plan to Redeem Israel​

12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:

I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.


Again, the same God is speaking, he is the first and the last (Who is this in scripture. but Christ.



13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.


The same God. He laid the foundations of the earth. He holds them together

14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.

16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit]Have sent Me.”


This same God. the creator. the one who prophesies. the one who redeems and restrains. He was sent by the father and his spirit.


17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!


Again, the same God of Israel. who started to talk in verse one. Who was sent by the father and his spirit. Is the LORD YOUR GOD

People like wranger and facetoface can deny it all they want, and laugh at it. but they have to mock the word of God to do it.

Please rita, please listen
 
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