Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Wrangler]

Sad but true.

 

[Ritajanice]

Sad but true.

Pray that the Spirit brings them to this truth...you do not have to believe in the trinity, which isn’t even in the Bible, to be saved from eternal damnation....I pray more for @Lizbeth @GodsGrace ....as they are accusers of the brethren...

You / aren’t Christian/ Born Again ,if you don’t believe in the trinity.... came out of GG mouth.

We are tares , because we don’t believe in the trinity,came out of Lizbeth mouth...lies coming out of their mouths from the enemy, they are being used by him and they don’t even know it......I hold them up in prayer, and pray that the Lord will set them free from this lie....In Jesus Name...Amen!

Praise God also for the gift of discernment...which develops as we grow in spiritual understanding / knowledge and maturity.....

Commentary.

How do you measure maturity? It is not a function of how old you are—society is dominated by multiple generations of immature adults who refuse to act their age. Maturity is tested by time, but it’s not a question of how long a person has lived. Rather, it’s determined by how wisely he or she lives.

The same is true in the spiritual realm. It doesn’t matter how long a person has sat under the teaching of God’s Word if his life is still dominated by fickle emotionalism, foolish worldliness, and shallow spirituality. Exposure to the Word alone won’t make us mature Christians—we must be faithful and disciplined to put it to work in our lives.

Put simply, spiritual maturity is the process of learning to discern. In fact, the path to real discernment is the path to spiritual growth—and vice versa. Growth in grace is an ongoing process throughout this earthly life. No Christian ever reaches complete maturity this side of heaven: “Now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known” (1 Corinthians 13:12). We must continually “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 3:18). We should hunger “for the pure milk of the word, so that by it [we] may grow” (1 Peter 2:2).

As we mature, our senses are exercised to discern good and evil (Hebrews 5:14). As we cease to be children, we gain stability (Ephesians 4:14-15). Mature people are discerning people

 

[Aunty Jane]

Worst of all, trinitarians take this wholly absent from Scripture dogma as if it is the central message of Scripture, that one's salvation and even being a Christian depends on believing it.

Yes, it’s not stated in scripture at all except by inference, where it is implied in their translations. There is not a single clear and unambiguous declaration from Jesus or his Father that they are equal “persons” in a triune god. If there was, this debate could never have reached this many pages. It would have been settled as soon as it was raised.

RJ says..A Born Again knows this to be a lie..in Jesus Name..Amen!!....for some reason their heart/ spirit doesn’t know this is a lie from the enemy.

Those who are chosen by God to rule with him as “kings and priests” in his Kingdom, (Rev 20:6) know in their hearts that God has chosen them, without doubt.

As Jesus said….
John 14:6…
”No one comes to the Father except through me.”

And no one can come to the son except by a personal invitation from the Father….opening the hearts of such ones and “drawing” them to accept his truth.

John 6:44; 65…
”No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him”…..”This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Without an invitation from the Father, no one can come to the son, who was God’s appointed teacher and savior of the human race.

If people want to believe the devil’s lies, the Father allows them to be deluded, because they have no love for the truth…they only love what they want to believe.

Jehovah does not deliberately delude them, but merely allows satan to delude them, since they take more pleasure in lies and unrighteousness than in truth and salvation….

2 Thess 2:9-12….
“The lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

In spiritual matters, Jehovah allows satan (the god of this world) to “blind” them. (2 Cor 4:3-4)
And what is interesting about this “blindness” is that it issues from the mind, not just the eyes. The central command centre of the brain is disengaged, not allowing the truth to penetrate the barrier that they have created.

 

[Wrangler]

There is not a single clear and unambiguous declaration from Jesus or his Father that they are equal “persons” in a triune god. If there was, this debate could never have reached this many pages. It would have been settled as soon as it was raised.

By comparison, I use the question of what day was man created. No debate because there is clear and unambiguous declaration of the matter.

Likewise, there is clear and unambiguous declarations in Scripture of who God is. It’s just that these many 1,000’s of proof texts destroy the trinity doctrine. So, Trinitarians summarily ignore them.

Yahweh, … there is no God except me.
Isaiah 44:6

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, a closer look at original language words is revealing…..so let’s allow the Hebrew speakers to interpret their own Scripture….

In the Jewish Tanakh Proverbs 8:22 reads…

22The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.

כביְֽהוָ֗ה קָ֖נָנִי רֵאשִׁ֣ית דַּרְכּ֑וֹ קֶ֖דֶם מִפְעָלָ֣יו מֵאָֽז:

“The LORD” is Yahweh (יְֽהוָ֗ה)….and the word used here (acquired) in Hebrew is “qānâ” and it means…..”to get, acquire, create, buy, possess”, (Strongs) so if you look at how this word is used in other passages, you get to understand how it is used in the scriptures generally speaking. An investigation of this nature when carried out on other words that require clearer understanding can alter how we read a lot of passages. English does not always do justice to the original Bible languages which are translations produced by men, often with a heavy bias towards the doctrines of the RCC.
In order to promote their trinity doctrine, many passages are not translated correctly.

John 1:1 is a classic example. When you look up the word “theos” in an Interlinear you get to understand that this word “god” has a variety of meanings….it doesn’t just refer to Yahweh…..so calling Jesus “theos” is not calling him “God” with a capital “G”.

The word “theos” can also mean ”any god or goddess, deity or divinity….

1. spoken of the only and true God
   1. refers to the things of God
   2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
2. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      1. of magistrates and judges” (according to Strongs)

The meaning of John 1:1 is in the Greek, not the biased English translation.

It should read….
”In the beginning, was the Word (ho logos) and the Word was with God (“ho theos“ Yahweh) and the Word was divine.” (“theos” without the definite article “ho”.) When two divine persons are mentioned in the same passage of scripture, and one is “the only true God” (Yahweh), then the other personage is referred to as “theos” without the definite article, because there is only one Yahweh. (God with a capital “G”)

There are not two “gods” as we understand the word in English, but two divine persons, and only one is Yahweh…the other is “divine” but not a “deity”. Understanding the Greek is more important than reading just the English translation….people who study God’s word, get it….those who don’t are led astray….often because of what they want to believe, rather than what the Bible as a whole actually teaches.

Look up John 10:31-36 and see that God himself called human judges in Israel “gods” because they operated under his divine sanction….representing him to the people in much the same way as Moses did.
Jesus too came as a divine representative of his God and Father. In every way he reflected his Father’s qualities and taught his disciples how to worship him in truth…..the religious leaders of the day were so off track with their adoption of man-made traditions, that Jesus said that their worship was invalid. (Matt 15:7-9) Christendom is a mirror image of first century Judaism…..also full of man-made traditions and false religious ideas adopted from the pagans…..

There is no trinity in the Bible….no immortals souls and no hellfire….these lies are from the devil and horribly misrepresent the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

So the LORD had to acquire buy wisdom . As THOUGH somehow HE did not already possess it .
See why i dont follow other so called greek or hebrew interpretations .
They always seem to JUSTIFY why men believe as men believe and not rather as the WORD itself says .
Soon all the decieved will merge as one under what they see as love , as unity as of GOD . only IT WONT BE .
i cant stop it aunty . Many on this site already are influenced by it . Their docrtrines are different
BUT in time they will full heartedly follow the motto doctrine dont really matter only this love do . AND again
that love they preach , AINT OF GOD friend . I cant stop it aunty
and EVERY KNOWN denomination to man is under it to some degree already . Some worse than others
but they all headed right to the grand delusion . And aunty , i cant stop it . WISHED I could
but its gonna run its course . My advice , WE BESS BIBLE UP and fast .

 

[Brakelite]

In order to be defined CHRISTIAN...a person must believe Jesus is God.
This required accepting the Trinity as doctrine

I disagree. One does not needa man's definition of the Godhead/trinity in order to accept that Jesus is God. John's gospel was written for a purpose. At the end of the first century, 30 to 40 years after the other hosiery were ashtray in circulation, John wrote an apologetic...a divine theology if you like... to prove or reveal the true nature and identity of Jesus. The Trinity isn't mentioned anywhere in scripture. It's an assumed doctrine formed hundred of years after hundreds of thousands of Jews, and Gentiles, had accepted Christ on His own merits without the church's aid in defining a 'trinity' that no-one can explain, nor agree on.
So what was it that the apostle John focused on far and above everything else? Let me show you in his own words...
“30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. ”
John 20:30-31 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Not a  son of God, but the Son of God. Our faith is not to be in a trinity, an assumed doctrine of man. Our faith is to be in the only begotten Son of the Most High and Almighty Father, not a son created as are angels, not a son adopted as are forgiven sinners, but a Son begotten, brought forth, Who proceeded from the Father and was sent to earth as a man to die.

 

[Ritajanice]

You CANNOT be a CHRISTian unless you believe Jesus is God.
That is the very definition of Christian.

You follow a Bible doctrine....you have no understanding of what it means to be led by the Spirit...and you have the nerve to tell CadyandZoe that he isn’t a Christian.

We could all accuse you of not being Born Again...you may be a Christian following the Bible...yet I don’t think that your spirit is Alive in Christ..that’s my honest opinion, only because of what I see you post..

By whose authority/ testimony are you under to tell him that?

You don’t even know what a Living testimony means..?

Your mind is so closed...

We must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God....to which you seem to hate me professing that...it’s all boring to you....it’s spiritual life in Christ to me.

Galatians 5:16-26​

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King James Version​

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16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another




1 Corinthians 2:14-16: The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one

You’re as confused as confused can be...by your own testimony..on all of your posts.

You might be a Witness or a Mormon or who knows what else..
but you are NOT a Christian person.


Here's the problem C....
I'm saying that you should go study some church history.
Find out what was believed by the Apostles and all those that came after them.
Thomas exclaimed MY LORD AND MY GOD....
and Jesus did not correct him.

Those that came after ALSO believed Jesus was God.

So, tell us, why should we believe YOU when you state plainly that you don't believe in orthodox Christianity.
Believing in orthodox Christianity is WHAT MAKES YOU CHRISTIAN.

You don't get to make up your own rules.
The rules have already been established and by your own words you do NOT accept them.

So do Christianity a favor and stop calling yourself one.

Wow. So Christianity is based on Plato and Aristotle.
No comment.

You might want to post some supporting proof of this outlandish claim.


You DID notice that Jesus was born?
IMMANUEL....a title as you must surely know.
GOD WITH US.

Matthew 1:23
20But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21“She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
22Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”


This is the fulfillment of the prophecy in
Isaiah 7:14
14“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

In verse 22 of Matthew, he states that this is the fulfillment of the prophecy.

I think we should learn from Matthew.
I think he knew the OT and prophecy much better than we do.

Well, of course you did!

Jesus and Stephen died for using the term SON OF GOD.

YOU, otoh, claim that it doesn't mean much.
You are DIMINISHING its meaning.

Why diminish what early believers DIED FOR??

Because YOU cannot accept the tenets of Christianity....even though you
insist on calling yourself a Christian.


As I've already stated to you...the above is such nonsense that I will not reply.

Post some scripture...if you can proving what you've stated.
I've asked you this before.


Oh. And you think THE ROMANS cared about Jesus being or not being God?
If you remember He did die on a Roman cross.
It's THE JEWS that said Jesus was blaspheming by calling Himself God.

This is rich coming from you ...

I follow the teachings of the Spirit..now , when you have a full understanding of what that means, we may then have a discussion.

At the moment , all I see from you is.following the Bible from your own understanding..I see NO Spirit talk in your posts whatsoever , you follow doctrine....there is no ‘ Spirit life” in any of your posts.,Alive in the Spirit...ask God to reveal to your heart what that means....in the meantime, seek God out with your heart..doctrine won’t help.not until you understand what seeking God out with your heart means....we know God deep within our heart...as it’s been “:supernaturally birthed”....I’ve even underlined and highlighted heart for you...praying it helps you understand, ok..

Just like your opinion that I follow Calvin...ok..have a nice day...Praise God.

Edit to add..you follow the Bible story..you have no understanding of what it means to be led by the Living Spirit, that can only happen when one’s spirit has been permanently birthed into the Spirit of Christ.just like a flesh birth.once birthed, we can’t go back into our mothers womb.

Once birthed by the Spirit, we are no longer our own, we were bought for a price..His Name was / is Jesus.

We permanently belong to our Spirit Father God...spirit children, no escaping that...chosen and predestined to be conformed into Jesus image....that is why your understanding of the trinity imo is false as you have no understanding of the rebirth...you need that understanding to grow in spirit.the trinity is man made doctrine...for it is not written.

 

[ProDeo]

I went through the above with @Hepzibah

IF Christ was created....then He is not on the same level as the Father.

But scripture tells us that He is.

John 10:30 Jesus said I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. ONE...NOT TWO, THE SON ALWAYS EXISTED.
John 1:3 ALL THINGS CAME INTO CREATION BY HIM. ONLY GOD CAN CREATE.
John 5:18 JESUS MADE HIMSELF TO BE EQUAL TO THE FATHER.
John 5:23 HE WHO HONORS GOD MUST ALSO HONOR THE SON

Jesus ALWAYS EXISTED.
HE WAS WITH GOD IN GENESIS 1 LET US MAKE MAN...
John 17:5 JESUS HAD GLORY WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.
John 8:58 BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS,,,,,I AM
I AM means I always was, I am, and I always will be.

there are many more...

Yep, that's what I always believed and still do. And John 3:16 and other passages that speak about -- begotten Son -- linking it to His birth in Bethlehem. Thus like the Father who is uncreated and eternal so is the Son.

But from all the texts you posted above in theory you can interpret them slightly different that Jesus was created by the Father as -- only begotten Son -- and as the Lamb slain -- BECAUSE OF creation and the consequences of giving free will to His creatures. What of course still stands is that -- the only begotten Son -- and -- the Lamb slain -- are full God.

 

[ProDeo]

@Wrangler ...

Worst of all, trinitarians take this wholly absent from Scripture dogma as if it is the central message of Scripture, that one's salvation and even being a Christian depends on believing it.

Please don't speak in plurality, I don't hold that belief.

 

[Ritajanice]

Please don't speak in plurality, I don't hold that belief.

Firstly don’t tell me what to post.

Secondly, I never said that...just goes to show that you too don’t read other members posts.that disagree with the trinity.

Aunty misquoted me..if you start reading posts of those who don’t agree with you about the trinity..you may come to that knowledge.
I was quoting what wrangler posted..



Apology accepted..

 

[ProDeo]

John 6:44; 65…
”No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him”…..”This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Without an invitation from the Father, no one can come to the son, who was God’s appointed teacher and savior of the human race.

True.

If people want to believe the devil’s lies, the Father allows them to be deluded, because they have no love for the truth…they only love what they want to believe.

Jehovah does not deliberately delude them, but merely allows satan to delude them, since they take more pleasure in lies and unrighteousness than in truth and salvation….

Ah, you figured me out........you think.....

Fortunately for me you are not the final Arbiter.

Don't become the accuser of the brethren sister.

 

[Ritajanice]

Don't become the accuser of the brethren sister.

You may also wish to point that out to some of the trinity believers on here as well..don’t make that mistake.by singling Aunty out.

 

[ProDeo]

Aunty misquoted me..if you start reading posts of those who don’t agree with you about the trinity..you may come to that knowledge.
I was quoting what wrangler posted..

I see..........

Apology accepted..

Solly, as my youngest granddaughter used to say.

 

[ProDeo]

You may also wish to point that out to some of the trinity believers on here as well..don’t make that mistake.by singling Aunty out.

I am against all kind of these judgements.

So glad you used the word "some" and it's true

 

[Magdala]

I follow the teachings of the Spirit..

The High Priest, Caiaphas, and other Jews, people who knew the scriptures, and thought that they, too, were guided by the Holy Spirit, still couldn't recognize God in the flesh, but a Gentile and pagan did:

"Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.” (Matt. 27:54, Mk. 15:39, Lk. 23:47)

Be mindful of your belief that Jesus—the One Who said, "Whoever lives and believes in Me will never die (Jn. 11:26)"—isn't God in the flesh, so as not to become so proud as those who knew the scriptures, and thought that they were guided by the Holy Spirit, but lacked a good will and humility, and thus became spiritually dead.

 

[Magdala]

But John doesn't say the word was a person. You are adding that.

I said that John said, "God was the Word" (1:1). Is he not saying that God was the Word?

I said that John said, "the Word flesh became and dwelt among us" (1:14). Is he not saying that the Word (God) became flesh, and indicating that prior to becoming human, the Word (God) preexisted as not a human?

I understand your question, but it assumes your answer.

Firstly, I asked, "Who sent the Word to become a human?", then I followed up with the answer, "the Thought (the Father)", to which you replied, "John doesn't say that the word was sent in that passage (Jn. 1:1)", but I didn't say that the words "'the Word was sent" are in Jn. 1:1.

Secondly, I say that the Word was sent because Jesus said that the Father (the Thought) sent Him (Jn. 3:17;34;5:30;6:38;7:28-29;8:29;11:42;12:49;17:3;20:21;1 Jn. 4:9). Is it not so that the Word became human and dwelt among the people (Jn. 1:14) by being conceived by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin, and that He was named "Jesus" (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35)?

The Jews misconstrued Jesus' statements as a claim to be God

Here is another faithful record of a faulty interpretation by the Jews.

[...] the Jews were misconstruing Jesus' comments to mean something that he would never claim.

So, regarding Jn. 5:1-18;10:22-39, Matt. 26:57-68/Lk. 22:66-71 (cf. PV2, PV4, PV5), you're saying that those who attempted to kill Jesus for blasphemy did so because they thought He was saying that He's God. At the very least, that tells me you believe it was their understanding that Jesus was saying that He's God, which is good, even if you presently believe that they falsely interpreted His Words.

Now, if they did falsely interpret Jesus's words to mean that He's God, why didn't He correct their understanding?

And, considering, for example, the endless number of Jesus's miracles, which are manifestations of His divine nature, down to the last ones: His Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven, do you acknowledge it's possible that their interpretation of Jesus's Words to mean that He's God was actually true, but they rejected them?

Your premise does not support your conclusion. If, as you say, Abraham saw Jesus' day "as in prophetically," then Jesus' day was not yet a reality. And if Jesus' day was not yet a reality, then Jesus wasn't either.

Jesus has used the phrase "I am" more than once in contexts where the meaning is clearly "I am he"; That is, "I am the coming Messiah spoken of by the prophets."

Jesus spoke to the Judaeans saying, "if a person keeps My Word, he will never see death" (Jn. 8:51). The Judaeans asked in reply, "Are You greater than Abraham and the prophets, who died? Who do You think You are?" (Jn. 8:53), and Jesus affirmed by saying, for example, that He follows the Father's Word (Jn. 8:55), the same Word that He previously said was His Word in Jn. 8:51, and so on. Jesus went on to say, "Abraham longed to see My day, and he saw it, and rejoiced" (Jn. 8:56). It's a statement made by Jesus that suggests Abraham had a prophetic vision of the Messiah's coming. It is there in Israel that the Promise was fulfilled. It was accomplished in Jesus. Abraham saw it, prophetically, through a grace of God, and rejoiced, unlike many of those Jesus was speaking to who were really living it. The Judaeans responded dismissively saying, "You are not yet fifty years old and You are telling us that Abraham has seen You and You have seen him?", and Jesus replied, "I solemnly tell you: before Abraham was born I am" (Jn. 8:58, cf. PV4), and they took up stones to throw at Him for blasphemy (Jn. 8:59, cf. PV4), because they understood that Jesus claimed to be eternal, which only God can say as He's eternal: God spoke to Moses, saying, l AM THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you. And God said again to Moses, thus shalt thou say to the sons of Israel, the Lord God of our fathers, the God of Abraham, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is My name for ever, and my memorial to generations of generations". (English translation from The Tanakh, Ex. 3:14-15)

[...] I never claimed that everyone believed Jesus would be a theophany.

I never said that you did, but rather quoted your statement that the Pharisees believed the Messiah would be an angel or a theophany. You're wrong in saying that the Pharisees believed that the Messiah would be an angel, or a theophany, because Jesus asked them, "According to you, what do you think of the Christ (Messiah)? Whose son is He?", and they rightly answered, "the descendant of David". (Matt. 22:41-46, cf. PV5)

[...] the topic of discussion was the rank of Jesus as compared to the rank of David.

Following the Pharisees rightly answering that the Christ (Messiah) will be the descendant of David, Jesus asked them, "How, then, does David, inspired by God, call Him "Lord" saying: 'The Lord (God) said to My Lord (Christ): 'Sit at My right hand (the place of greatest honor) until I make Your enemies a footstool for You?' So if David calls the Christ "Lord", how can the Christ be his son?". Jesus was asking the Pharisees why David would call his "son" (his descendant) "my Lord" who sits at the right hand of God, unless the Christ (Messiah) has some significant status beyond being David's descendant. The Pharisees didn't have an answer (Matt. 22:41-46, cf. PV5). In summary, as pointed out by Jesus, David made it clear that the Christ (Messiah) has significant status beyond being his descendant, whether you agree with me in what way or not.

 

[Wrangler]

I disagree. One does not needa man's definition of the Godhead/trinity in order to accept that Jesus is God.

One contradiction upon another contradiction. Man invented the Godhead in Pagan traditions and the idea that a man is God centuries after the NT writers were dead!

John's gospel was written for a purpose... to prove or reveal the true nature and identity of Jesus.

Trinitarians take what Scripture teaches, throws it in the trash and states Scripture contradicts what Scripture actually teaches. John's purpose statement:
John 20:31
31 But these are written so that you may continue to believe[a] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in him you will have life by the power of his name.

 

[Wrangler]

Please don't speak in plurality, I don't hold that belief.

Exceptions don't make rules. Trinitarians (plural) have told me for decades that my salvation depends on believing their IDOL. Indeed, I've been told that repeatedly in this very thread.

 

[Rita]

Right it’s time to throw the mud at each other elsewhere - we have allowed this thread to continue despite all the accusations and derogation comments from both sides.