Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Magdala]

But John doesn't say the word was a person. You are adding that.

I said that John said, "God was the Word" (1:1), and that "the Word flesh became and dwelt among us" (1:14). Is it not so that God was the Word? Is it not so that the Word (God) having become flesh indicates that prior to becoming human, the Word preexisted (God) as not a human?

I understand your question, but it assumes your answer.

Firstly, I asked, "Who sent the Word to become a human?", then I followed up with the answer, "the Thought (the Father)", to which you replied, "John doesn't say that the word was sent in that passage (Jn. 1:1)", but I didn't say that the words "'the Word was sent" are in Jn. 1:1.

Secondly, I say that the Word was sent because Jesus said that the Father (the Thought) sent Him (Jn. 3:17;34;5:30;6:38;7:28-29;8:29;11:42;12:49;17:3;20:21;1 Jn. 4:9). Is it not so that the Word became human and dwelt among the people (Jn. 1:14) by being conceived by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin, and that He was named "Jesus" (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35)?

The Jews misconstrued Jesus' statements as a claim to be God

Here is another faithful record of a faulty interpretation by the Jews.

[...] the Jews were misconstruing Jesus' comments to mean something that he would never claim.

So, regarding Jn. 5:1-18;10:22-39, Matt. 26:57-68/Lk. 22:66-71 (cf. PV2, PV4, PV5), you're saying that those who attempted to kill Jesus for blasphemy did so because they thought He was saying that He's God. At the very least, that tells me you believe it was their understanding that Jesus was saying that He's God, which is good, even if you presently believe that they falsely interpreted His Words.

Now, considering, for example, the endless number of Jesus's miracles, which are manifestations of His divine nature, down to the last ones: His Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven, do you acknowledge it's possible that their interpretation of Jesus's Words was actually true, but they rejected His Words?

Your premise does not support your conclusion. If, as you say, Abraham saw Jesus' day "as in prophetically," then Jesus' day was not yet a reality. And if Jesus' day was not yet a reality, then Jesus wasn't either.

Jesus has used the phrase "I am" more than once in contexts where the meaning is clearly "I am he"; That is, "I am the coming Messiah spoken of by the prophets."

Jesus spoke to the Judaeans saying, "if a person keeps My Word, he will never see death" (Jn. 8:51). The Judaeans asked in reply, "Are You greater than Abraham and the prophets, who died? Who do You think You are?" (Jn. 8:53) to which Jesus affirmed by saying, for example, that He follows His Father's Word (Jn. 8:55), the same Word that He said was His Word in Jn. 8:51, and so on. Jesus went on to say, "Abraham longed to see My day, and he saw it, and rejoiced" (Jn. 8:56). It's a statement made by Jesus that suggests Abraham had a prophetic vision of the Messiah's coming. It is there in Israel that the Promise was fulfilled. It was accomplished in Jesus. Abraham saw it, prophetically, through a grace of God, and rejoiced, unlike many of those Jesus was speaking to who were really living it. The Judaeans responded dismissively saying, "You are not yet fifty years old and You are telling us that Abraham has seen You and You have seen him?", and this time Jesus reaffirmed that He's God and the Christ (Messiah) by having said, "before Abraham was born I am" (Jn. 8:59, cf. PV4). For Jesus to say "before Abraham was born I am" is significant because only God can say that He's eternal: God spoke to Moses, saying, l AM THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you. And God said again to Moses, thus shalt thou say to the sons of Israel, the Lord God of our fathers, the God of Abraham, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is My name for ever, and my memorial to generations of generations" (English translation from The Tanakh, Ex. 3:14-15). It was understood that Jesus said He's God, and thus they took up stones to throw at Him for blasphemy. (Jn. 8:59, cf. PV4)

Your objection does not disprove my statement because I never claimed that everyone believed Jesus would be a theophany.

I never said that you did, but rather quoted your following statement regarding Jesus's trial: "The Pharisee's accusation was based on their belief that the Messiah would be an angel or a theophany [...]". It's false to say the Pharisees believed that the Messiah would be an angel, or a theophany, because at one point, Jesus had asked the Pharisees, "According to you, what do you think of the Christ (Messiah)? Whose son is He?", and they rightly answered, "the descendant of David". (Matt. 22:41-46, cf. PV5)

[...] the topic of discussion was the rank of Jesus as compared to the rank of David.

Following the Pharisees rightly answering that the Christ (Messiah) will be the descendant of David, Jesus asked them, "How, then, does David, inspired by God, call Him "Lord" saying: 'The Lord (God) said to my Lord (Christ): 'Sit at my right hand (the place of greatest honor) until I make Your enemies a footstool for You?' So if David calls the Christ "Lord", how can the Christ be his son?". Jesus was asking the Pharisees why David would call his "son" (his descendant) "my Lord" who sits at the right hand of God, unless the Christ (Messiah) has some significant status beyond being David's descendant. The Pharisees didn't have an answer (Matt. 22:41-46, cf. PV5). In summary, as pointed out by Jesus, David made it clear that the Christ (Messiah) has significant status beyond being his descendant, whether you agree with me in what way or not.

 

[Wrangler]

One verse pony.

View attachment 58022

Yet, you just ignore the significance of this verse that is in EVERY epistle! The only God is the Father.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yet, you just ignore the significance of this verse that is in EVERY epistle! The only God is the Father.

One Verse Pony is back.

 

[Wrangler]

One Verse Pony is back.

In your opinion, does this one verse support or undermine the Trinity doctrine?

 

[Magdala]

The only God is the Father.

He Who Is has the title "the Father" because of the Son, and vice versa. If Jesus the Son of God isn't God, then why does He Who Is need to be called the Father?

 

[Brakelite]

That's an interesting observation, need some time to let it sink in.

That is, if someone can point Scripture to me that Christ like the Father was uncreated and from all eternity.

Headache issue.

I am not sure where that idea is coming from, but to me it would seem to diminish His deity (God has no beginning and no end), and also since He created everything in both heaven and earth, including all powers and principalities. He is called the Son of God because He was begotten of God on earth as a man, begotten of God's Spirit.......the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary......and what was conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit, of God. His body was created, but He Himself was not, being God (part of the Godhead as we think of it). He was God manifest in the flesh. And He said of Himself..."Before Abraham was I AM". I AM implies that He always was and always will be, in terms of time...no beginning and no end. It is a name of God. I can't fathom that Christ is a mere created being who was created in eternity. That would seem to make Him only equal to angels.....and how could that be since He is the one who created the angels and everything else in heaven!

Please don't misunderstand me. I do not believe the divine Son of God was created. He is a literal Son, brought forth... begotten not created... as we understand Father/ Son relationships. We don't know how far back in eternity this took place. Certainly before creation, but we don't know when that took place either. We know this solar system, or at least the earth and the moon and stars in our immediate vicinity (as signs for times and seasons) was created only 6000 years ago. But the other worlds, in other star systems, on other galaxies, and i have no doubt the beings who inhabit them, it is anyone's guess when they came into being. Maybe not all at once. Perhaps over time as well. And eternity? Do we know how that works? Can we say with any confidence that there is no sense of time in eternity? No past, present, or future? No memories of what took place yesterday, or at any previous period, no plans or hopes for tomorrow? Don't those concepts require time? Did not even God plan creation before creation began, and would that not involve seeing into the future? I don't know. And none of my business really. What I do know is that God can see the future, and has told us about it.

But who is the Lord in that first line who created what is being talked about here, since the Apostle wrote that Christ created all things in heaven and earth....? Reading the whole chapter of Proverb 8, it says Wisdom is what is being talked about here that was created and brought forth.....and it had to have been created by the Son of God when He was in the form of God.

Unless we are not take the word created here literally........that Christ always existed with God and was brought forth of Him in a manner of speaking in eternity as it were for the purpose of creating. These are hard mysteries to grasp and I think these things need to be taken as spiritual poetic language, not literal. I just know I could not accept anything that would diminish or undermine His Divinity. That's a non-negotiable. I do not have my trust and faith in a created being. I do not have the Spirit of a created being in me. I do not lay my life on the altar to a created being.

Nor I. My hope, my faith is in a literal Son of God, brought forth of the Father's own nature, inheriting His Father's name, character, and Spirit, and is therefore rightfully called God.
“In him was life..."
John 1:4 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

What life was that, and Whose was it before it was given to the Son? It was the Father's own life.
“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; ”
John 5:26 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

What life is that which is self existent, and has power to raise the dead? Is it not the life of God, which is His by right and nature because He was begotten of God?

 

[GodsGrace]

In your opinion, does this one verse support or undermine the Trinity doctrine?

NOTHING undermines the fact that Jesus is GOD.
Just because YOU don't wish to accept that Jesus is God, does not make it so.

Jesus HIMSELF stated He was God.

You blaspheme God every time you state that His Son,,,the 2nd Person of the Trinity, the very WORD/LOGOS of God, is NOT GOD.

That's like saying YOUR mind is NOT YOU.

1. Stop referring to yourself as Christian because you're not.

2. IF you like the idea of being Christian...you're going to have to accept Christian tenets...and this is one of them.

 

[Brakelite]

Not an answer to the 2 questions!

Patience. Hardly something to get angry about.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's an interesting observation, need some time to let it sink in.

That is, if someone can point Scripture to me that Christ like the Father was uncreated and from all eternity.

Headache issue.

I went through the above with @Hepzibah

IF Christ was created....then He is not on the same level as the Father.

But scripture tells us that He is.

John 10:30 Jesus said I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. ONE...NOT TWO, THE SON ALWAYS EXISTED.
John 1:3 ALL THINGS CAME INTO CREATION BY HIM. ONLY GOD CAN CREATE.
John 5:18 JESUS MADE HIMSELF TO BE EQUAL TO THE FATHER.
John 5:23 HE WHO HONORS GOD MUST ALSO HONOR THE SON

Jesus ALWAYS EXISTED.
HE WAS WITH GOD IN GENESIS 1 LET US MAKE MAN...
John 17:5 JESUS HAD GLORY WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.
John 8:58 BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS,,,,,I AM
I AM means I always was, I am, and I always will be.

there are many more...

 

[GodsGrace]

Patience. Hardly something to get angry about.

Interesting...from a member that NEVER answers questions.

 

[Ritajanice]

Oi vey.

View attachment 58023

What do you think is boring me to tears RJ?
YOU
or
God?

Think carefully now....

See what I mean GG..same old same old...I’m handing you over to God...I can’t be doing ,joining in with your petty behaviour, it’s embarrassing coming from a fully grown woman......you lack spiritual maturity in Christ..as we see above...good day.

 

[Ritajanice]

NOTHING undermines the fact that Jesus is GOD.
Just because YOU don't wish to accept that Jesus is God, does not make it so.

Jesus HIMSELF stated He was God.

You blaspheme God every time you state that His Son,,,the 2nd Person of the Trinity, the very WORD/LOGOS of God, is NOT GOD.

That's like saying YOUR mind is NOT YOU.

1. Stop referring to yourself as Christian because you're not.

2. IF you like the idea of being Christian...you're going to have to accept Christian tenets...and this is one of them.

All in your own opinion GG....here you go again...trying to accuse wrangler of not being Christian...what are you trying to gain from your continued old man/ flesh remarks...which are far from edifying and fruitful...

What did Jesus preach about the fruit of the Spirit....where is your fruit?

 

[Ritajanice]

1. Stop referring to yourself as Christian because you're not.

Addressed to wrangler.

 

[Wrangler]

Patience. Hardly something to get angry about.

Patience has nothing to do with it. The lack of intellectual honesty of trinitarians in evading questions has everything to do with it.

 

[Wrangler]

1. Stop referring to yourself as Christian because you're not.

I’m OK with not meeting your expectations. Your opinion means NOTHING.

 

[Wrangler]

NOTHING undermines the fact that Jesus is GOD.

Trinitarian logic on display.

 

[Wrangler]

begotten not created

This is a contradiction. Begotten means created.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Look closer sister . IN the older translation it says HE POSSESSED ME
not created . HE POSSESSED WISDOM and WHO is made the WISDOM of GOD unto us , JESUS the CHRIST .
The very essence of GOD .

Yes, a closer look at original language words is revealing…..so let’s allow the Hebrew speakers to interpret their own Scripture….

In the Jewish Tanakh Proverbs 8:22 reads…

22The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.

כביְֽהוָ֗ה קָ֖נָנִי רֵאשִׁ֣ית דַּרְכּ֑וֹ קֶ֖דֶם מִפְעָלָ֣יו מֵאָֽז:

“The LORD” is Yahweh (יְֽהוָ֗ה)….and the word used here (acquired) in Hebrew is “qānâ” and it means…..”to get, acquire, create, buy, possess”, (Strongs) so if you look at how this word is used in other passages, you get to understand how it is used in the scriptures generally speaking. An investigation of this nature when carried out on other words that require clearer understanding can alter how we read a lot of passages. English does not always do justice to the original Bible languages which are translations produced by men, often with a heavy bias towards the doctrines of the RCC.
In order to promote their trinity doctrine, many passages are not translated correctly.

John 1:1 is a classic example. When you look up the word “theos” in an Interlinear you get to understand that this word “god” has a variety of meanings….it doesn’t just refer to Yahweh…..so calling Jesus “theos” is not calling him “God” with a capital “G”.

The word “theos” can also mean ”any god or goddess, deity or divinity….

1. spoken of the only and true God
   1. refers to the things of God
   2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
2. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      1. of magistrates and judges” (according to Strongs)

The meaning of John 1:1 is in the Greek, not the biased English translation.

It should read….
”In the beginning, was the Word (ho logos) and the Word was with God (“ho theos“ Yahweh) and the Word was divine.” (“theos” without the definite article “ho”.) When two divine persons are mentioned in the same passage of scripture, and one is “the only true God” (Yahweh), then the other personage is referred to as “theos” without the definite article, because there is only one Yahweh. (God with a capital “G”)

There are not two “gods” as we understand the word in English, but two divine persons, and only one is Yahweh…the other is “divine” but not a “deity”. Understanding the Greek is more important than reading just the English translation….people who study God’s word, get it….those who don’t are led astray….often because of what they want to believe, rather than what the Bible as a whole actually teaches.

Look up John 10:31-36 and see that God himself called human judges in Israel “gods” because they operated under his divine sanction….representing him to the people in much the same way as Moses did.
Jesus too came as a divine representative of his God and Father. In every way he reflected his Father’s qualities and taught his disciples how to worship him in truth…..the religious leaders of the day were so off track with their adoption of man-made traditions, that Jesus said that their worship was invalid. (Matt 15:7-9) Christendom is a mirror image of first century Judaism…..also full of man-made traditions and false religious ideas adopted from the pagans…..

There is no trinity in the Bible….no immortals souls and no hellfire….these lies are from the devil and horribly misrepresent the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

One Verse Pony is back.

One verse? Sure, if you overlook the 1,000’s of anti-trinity proof text verses

There are many text proofs against the trinity dogma. Consider these top 12:

1. Overall Bible Context: The trinity is not in Scripture - not the word and not the concept. The doctrine of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once! This explains why there is not once verse says it is important to believe in the trinity.
2. With the possible exception of Luke, the entire Bible is written by unitarian Jews who reject the trinity to this day. Therefore, one must read into unitarian text an idea that contradicts their over arching teaching.
3. HS: The easiest way to defeat the trinity is through the Holy Spirit, who is not a person and does not even have a name! It has no authority.
4. OT: We are told God's eternal name - YHWH - about 5,000 times to be remembered for all generations (who Jesus tells us to keep this name holy.)
5. YHWH is identified using singular pronouns 7,000 times.
6. NT Inequality: God the Father is the only God identified in the NT, which is contained in every epistle.
7. Jesus taught us to pray only to God the Father (not the trinity) and Jesus did not teach the trinity.
8. Jesus died. God is eternal.
9. Jesus admitted he has a God (the Father), who is greater than him, which explains why he submitted to God's will, i.e., 2 separate wills.
10. Jesus knew less than the Father (the hour of his own return).
11. Juxtaposition is ubiquitous.
    • "God" - in his unitarian nature - so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.
    • "God" - in his unitarian nature - is the head of Christ.
    • "God" - in his unitarian nature - raised Jesus from the dead.
12. Gospels all testify Jesus is the Son of God (none testify he is God the Son). The Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book of the Bible. From Chapter 5 alone:
    • v19: Jesus can do nothing by himself; does only what he sees God the Father do.
    • v22: authority given to the son.
    • v24: Jesus sent by God.
    • v26 The Father has life in himself, who has granted this same power to the son.
    • v44: The Father alone is God.
    • v46: Moses wrote (Deut 18:15-18) about "me," - the expected prophet, who God chose this man among the people of Israel to put his words in his mouth.

It's rather comical to see trinitarians refuse to admit the validity of this and put up for consideration only their preferred verses that they have to take out of context while implying their Lord is a liar for he said the Father is the only true God.

Worst of all, trinitarians take this wholly absent from Scripture dogma as if it is the central message of Scripture, that one's salvation and even being a Christian depends on believing it. The trinity is a 4th century, manmade IDOL. Why else would there be such passion, 4,000 posts defending what contradicts Scripture?

 

[Ritajanice]

@Wrangler ...

Worst of all, trinitarians take this wholly absent from Scripture dogma as if it is the central message of Scripture, that one's salvation and even being a Christian depends on believing it.


RJ says..A Born Again knows this to be a lie..in Jesus Name..Amen!!....for some reason their heart/ spirit doesn’t know this is a lie from the enemy.