Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[amigo de christo]

But who is the Lord in that first line who created what is being talked about here, since the Apostle wrote that Christ created all things in heaven and earth....? Reading the whole chapter of Proverb 8, it says Wisdom is what is being talked about here that was created and brought forth.....and it had to have been created by the Son of God when He was in the form of God.

Unless we are not take the word created here literally........that Christ always existed with God and was brought forth of Him in a manner of speaking in eternity as it were for the purpose of creating. These are hard mysteries to grasp and I think these things need to be taken as spiritual poetic language, not literal. I just know I could not accept anything that would diminish or undermine His Divinity. That's a non-negotiable. I do not have my trust and faith in a created being. I do not have the Spirit of a created being in me. I do not lay my life on the altar to a created being.

Look closer sister . IN the older translation it says HE POSSESSED ME
not created . HE POSSESSED WISDOM and WHO is made the WISDOM of GOD unto us , JESUS the CHRIST .
The very essence of GOD .

 

[Lizbeth]

Look closer sister . IN the older translation it says HE POSSESSED ME
not created . HE POSSESSED WISDOM and WHO is made the WISDOM of GOD unto us , JESUS the CHRIST .
The very essence of GOD .

Oh, that's more like it, thanks brother.

 

[amigo de christo]

You mean the time and space that He created? See that doesn't jive.

Those terms "essence" versus the other term (forget what it is at the moment) I have discerned to be from the mind of man...they are not revelation and they miss the mark. The carnal intellect tries to make sense of spiritual things but can't. We can only receive understanding in spirit, by the Spirit.

The beauty of it all is
What did the gosple say
and let us beleive them words to be TRUE .
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and GOD was the Word .
For every word written is true and is TRUTH . Thats right dear sister , you just march onwards in the LORD .
I keep it real simple . IF it is written we beleive it , whether we fully understand it or not .
For the same Word said to the churches , I AM ALPHA and OMEGA , the first and the last .
Oh it might be a wee bit hard to understand this , YET TRUE IT BE and let no man
try and change or alter words , as many do , to fit their own understandings . Rather Let the words
by THE SPIRIT form our understanding . As i KNOW you already KNOW that dear sister .

 

[Hepzibah]

You mean the time and space that He created? See that doesn't jive.

Those terms "essence" versus the other term (forget what it is at the moment) I have discerned to be from the mind of man...they are not revelation and they miss the mark. The carnal intellect tries to make sense of spiritual things but can't. We can only receive understanding in spirit, by the Spirit.

I believe that God the Father brought the Word His Son forth who was begotten in eternity which immediately meant that He was in the time and space immediately created, and thereafter, the rest of creation took place as God as spirit was unable to enter into T & S.

So His Son was able to bring it about but His Father God was still the source of all.

Understanding the difference between the energy of God that man may partake of and His unknowable essence is what we understand from scripture not the min of man.

 

[amigo de christo]

I believe that God the Father brought the Word His Son forth who was begotten in eternity which immediately meant that He was in the time and space immediately created, and thereafter, the rest of creation took place as God as spirit was unable to enter into T & S.

So His Son was able to bring it about but His Father God was still the source of all.

Understanding the difference between the energy of God that man may partake of and His unknowable essence is what we understand from scripture not the min of man.

A far simplier way to see this is
Take note IT IS WISDOM ITSELF that is speaking . I WISDOM dwell with prudence .
GOD ALWAYS HAD WISDOM . JESUS IS the WISDOM of GOD , GOD is HIS SPIRIT , HE IS HIS WORD .

 

[Lizbeth]

@Hepzibah

Pro 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Hephzibah

Pro 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Correct, He was begotten in eternity which has no beginning but His creation meant that time and space were now in existence.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not a Trinitarian, so I don't look at this from their perspective.

Not an answer to the 2 questions!

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh, that's more like it, thanks brother.

If we take simple note in proverbs chapter eight .
Notice WHO is speaking . I WISDOM dwell with prudence .
GOD always POSSESSED WISDOM . JESUS IS the WISDOM of GOD
as GOD is HIS WORD , HIS SPIRIT , THE TRUTH .
The beauty of it indeed .
Oh i know that my brother shall rise in the ressurection on the last day .
I AM THE RESSURECTION . AS GOD IS LIFE the SON IS LIFE .
FATHER , GLORIFY THY NAME
I have both glorified it and shall Glorify it again came the voice from the heavens .
JESUS was IN GLORY and for our sakes became poor
and yet GLORIFIED AGAIN for our sakes HE was .
LORD sanctify them in THY TRUTH , THY WORD IS TRUTH.
and a bit later HE says
I SANCTIFY MYSELF .
The langauge is clearly seen but man speakes confusion to his own destruction . For those who have eyes to see
they will learn OF GOD , Be taught of GOD and will heed not the voice of a stranger .

 

[amigo de christo]

Correct, He was begotten in eternity which has no beginning but His creation meant that time and space were now in existence.

Re read chapter eight in proverbs again . WHO is speaking , WISDOM .
Now please remind me , IF you can or are able too , AT WHAT PART of the existance of GOD did HE LACK WISDOM
and had to create it . That is THE BEAUTY OF IT . GOD IS WISDOM , has always had WISDOM
and in the beginning possessed Wisdom .
JESUS IS THE WISDOM OF GOD UNTO US . by HIM were all things created that were created .
Bask in the beauty of that my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

@Hephzibah

Pro 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

He possessed me
WISDOM is speaking .
Now for a real simple question and reminder .
DID GOD HAVE to create wisdom or DID HE ALWAYS POSSESS IT .
That be the beauty of it sister .
AND CHRIST JESUS IS THE WISDOM OF GOD UNTO us .

 

[amigo de christo]

Think about it my friends .
AT what PART in THE EXISTANCE of GOD did HE ever LACK WISDOM .
And the answer is , NEVER . HE IS WISDOM as CHRIST IS HIS WISDOM
HE is HIS SPIRIT , HE IS HIS WORD and by HIM were all things created that were created .

 

[amigo de christo]

@Hephzibah

Pro 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Did GOD ever have to create HIS WISDOM , HIS WORD .
No . HE simply IS wisdom and WISDOM speaks sister . It calls to the sheep of HIS pasture .
HE is life and giveth LIFE to his sheep and those who beleive in HIM shall NEVER DIE .

 

[Lizbeth]

I believe that God the Father brought the Word His Son forth who was begotten in eternity which immediately meant that He was in the time and space immediately created, and thereafter, the rest of creation took place as God as spirit was unable to enter into T & S.

So His Son was able to bring it about but His Father God was still the source of all.

Understanding the difference between the energy of God that man may partake of and His unknowable essence is what we understand from scripture not the min of man.

Bible says God is spirit, that is His essence (as well as energy/power I would think).....and through Christ we partake of His divine nature (2Peter 1)....is His divine nature not His essence? The difference between Him and us is that He has it (and always has and always will) in His own right and we only partake of it through Him.

Anyway that is a rabbit hole for another thread probably.

 

[Lizbeth]

A far simplier way to see this is
Take note IT IS WISDOM ITSELF that is speaking . I WISDOM dwell with prudence .
GOD ALWAYS HAD WISDOM . JESUS IS the WISDOM of GOD , GOD is HIS SPIRIT , HE IS HIS WORD .

Amen. and thus it had no beginning (and no end).

 

[Wrangler]

It is a hard thing to grasp how Christ created the universe as well as the Father.

He didn't. Jesus is not the Creator but the created - as all son's are by definition. No verse states Christ is the Creator even though there is a bad translation that renders "through" as "by."

Trump reforms the Deep State through his cabinet. That does not make them POTUS.

 

[Hepzibah]

He didn't. Jesus is not the Creator but the created - as all son's are by definition. No verse states Christ is the Creator even though there is a bad translation that renders "through" as "by."

Trump reforms the Deep State through his cabinet. That does not make them POTUS.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

There are many verses that say it was through the Word that creation came into being. But at the same time the Father is the Creator and source of all things. I think it means that without the Word, nothing could come forth as God is spirit and could not enter time.

 

[Lizbeth]

Correct, He was begotten in eternity which has no beginning but His creation meant that time and space were now in existence.

Are you saying the creation of Christ in eternity meant that time and space now existed? Can't get my head around that. We just established that Proverbs 8 does not say that He was created....the translation you used there is incorrect and misleading..... "possessed" is a far cry from "created". And in v. 23 it says He was set up from "everlasting" , which means He always was. Maybe you haven't caught up with all the posts yet.

To be begotten means to have been made...to have a beginning....like we are begotten of the spirit, our new man is a new creation that was created/begotten when we came to faith. But Christ in the form of God was never begotten......He was only begotten on earth as a man.

 

[Hepzibah]

"possessed" is a far cry from "created"

I don't have the Greek to argue on that one. I don't think you have either and it looks like Johann is gone.

Yes I know that you think the begetting was for Jesus the man. Who was it that appeared to Moses?

Yes He had a beginning as only the Father was in eternity, one God the Father maker of man and earth and all that in them is.

 

[Wrangler]

There are many verses that say it was through the Word that creation came into being.

Jesus is not the word of God.