Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[TribulationSigns]

If you had a rebuttal you would give it. But there is none. Facts are stubborn things.

Exactly, that's why I am still waiting for their honest biblical refutation on your posts. Nothing!

Luk 21:15
(15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you had a rebuttal you would give it. But there is none. Facts are stubborn things.

I do not need to rebut

You said you had indesputable truth. You lied.

Nothing you said would make me want to switch my view. or think i needed to switch my view.

the proof was on you. Not me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hath part in the first resurrection

The means by which a human being overcomes “the second death” is expressly shown in Revelation 20:6 to be their “part in the first resurrection.”

John confirms the current reality of believers already partaking in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

For those that are saved in this life, “the second death hath no power” over them. They have been delivered from the grave of their sin and are now seated in heavenly places. They now possess eternal life. They have secured a victory over eternal damnation. This is a present ongoing reality. Their eternal destiny is not the lake of fire but the new glorified earth.

The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

It is hard to get Premils to accept that victory over the second death does not come from being bodily resurrected from the grave on resurrection day. It is rather comes from salvation. That is what the Bible consistently teaches! If we let Scripture interpret Scripture we will quickly see that. If we do not, we will not. It will contradict multiple texts. We will find ourselves placing a private interpretation on Revelation 20.

Agree! And, there's one other thing about Revelation 20:6 well worth pointing out as well.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those who have part in the first resurrection are "priests of God and of Christ" and reign with Christ. How do premils miss that John already taught earlier in the book that we are NOW priests of God and of Christ? That means Revelation 20:6 is a current reality for that reason as well as the fact that the second death already has no power over those who belong to Christ.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

This says that Jesus is "the first begotten of the dead" which means He is the first to rise from the dead, as other scriptures like Acts 26:23 and 1 Corinthians 15:20 teach. His resurrection is the first resurrection, according to scripture. And it says He IS "the prince of the kings of the earth". And it says "to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever". That means NOW and for eternity! He reigns NOW! How can premils not take that into account when looking at a passage talking about Him reigning like Revelation 20?!

And then look at what it says. It says Jesus "hath MADE us kings and priests unto God and his Father". So, being priests of God and of Christ is a current reality for all those who belong to Christ, including the souls of the dead in Christ that John saw. They live and reign with Christ in heaven as priests of God and of Christ.

The irony of this subject is that everywhere else the presence tense is used, Premillennialists have no difficulty in applying it to the present, when it does not interfere with their pet doctrine. Jesus parallels Revelation 20:6 in John 3:16, teaching: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish (or experience the second death), but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

We see victory over the second death in this age through the new birth. Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It wins us victory over eternal death. It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (or experience the second death); but is passed from death unto life.”

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54 & 58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath (present active indicative) eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

In John 8:51, Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death).”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth (present active particle) in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death).”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Here is more proof that our escape from “the second death” is not future tense (as Premillennialists claim) but presence tense.

Exactly. There is no consistency in the approach that premils take to interpreting the book of Revelation compared to how they interpret the rest of scripture. They change the tense of verses in Revelation to make them fit their doctrine.

 

[WPM]

That thread doesnt read that way to me. You just wont address the truth when it is shown to you and get all red faced and start slnging insults and declaring victory when nothing could be further from the truth. That's quite a tacic you use now. Is that your idea or someone else? Your handlers?

Hey, do not go there re insults. I have a list of your (and fellow Pretribbers) vicious venomous ongoing attacks on Posttribbers.

This is more projection on your part. You are describing yourself.

You cannot biblically refute the biblical message so you attack the messenger. That is the Pretib MO. This is all you have, along with constant avoidance.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That thread doesnt read that way to me. You just wont address the truth when it is shown to you and get all red faced and start slnging insults and declaring victory when nothing could be further from the truth. That's quite a tacic you use now. Is that your idea or someone else? Your handlers?

How about you address the original posts in this thread? if you have the truth, then show us. What do you disagree with in the original posts in this thread and why?

 

[WPM]

I do not need to rebut

You said you had indesputable truth. You lied.

Nothing you said would make me want to switch my view. or think i needed to switch my view.

the proof was on you. Not me.

I couldn't care less whether you change your view or not. I'm simply presenting the contradictions of Premillennialism. As you can see above by the avoidance, there is no rebuttal forthcoming.

If you want to reject the truth that is on you. I am free. I have blown the trumpet.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nothing you said would make me want to switch my view. or think i needed to switch my view.

It is not our job to switch your view. That is between you and the Lord. Now you heard the truth, except that it is not OUR words, but the Word of God. We are merely witnesses of it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well,at least we know by the word of God that them who are beheaded for their witness of Jesus and who did not worship the beast or it's image,nor receive it's mark ,are resurected in the first resurection and have eternal life and do not suffer the second death.

Can't say that for most people as most people do not suffer such affliction for Christs namesake.

How about you address the points made in the original posts? Are you afraid to put your doctrine up to scrutiny? Is it based only on Revelation 20 without taking any other scripture into account to make sure your interpretation of Revelation 20 doesn't contradict any other scripture?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

wow, I thought I was going to see irrefutable proof.

I should have known better.

You don't want to see it. It's there. You noticeably aren't even attempting to refute anything he said. You know you can't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is that other thread getting too long for you, lol?

Is this topic all you ever talk about? That's...weird.

This thread is about the amil vs premil debate and not post-trib vs. pre-trib. Did you not even read the title of this thread or his original posts?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't see that being problematic for Premil, and one reason why is the following. Plus you already provided the solution when you said this--They are changed in a moment and caught up to be with Jesus in the air.

1 Corinthians 15:51 ehold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

This gives the impression that only those that have physically died are meant here. Except we know that no one can literally live forever unless all of the following happens to them first.

shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Obviously, those still alive and caught up in the rapture, this change has to happen to them as well even though they never physically died at any time. Because, if this change is not including them that can only mean they remain mortal for all eternity, except no mortal could possibly live forever. Therefore, this particular argument of yours is a weak one not a strong one.

If Premils take the 2nd death having no power over you to be meaning when one is in an immortal body state, obviously those caught up in the rapture will also be in an immortal body state once this change takes place in them as well.

Are you trying to change the text to make it so that those who are alive when Christ comes have part in the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ? That is what it seems like you're doing as a way to get around the fact that only the dead in Christ will be resurrected at that time, not those who are alive. When reading Revelation 20:6, you need to ask yourself what has to happen in order for the second death to not have power over someone. It's not being bodily resurrected from the dead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are playing with words in order to sustain the Premillennialist position. But physically living people are not physically resurrected. Being changed and caught up are not resurrection. This demolishes your whole thesis.

Look what premils do to try to keep their doctrine afloat. Some of them are willing to blatantly change scripture to make it say what they want it to say, such as him trying to make those who are alive when Christ comes be part of the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ. It's sad to see.

 

[WPM]

Look what premils do to try to keep their doctrine afloat. Some of them are willing to blatantly change scripture to make it say what they want it to say, such as him trying to make those who are alive when Christ comes be part of the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ. It's sad to see.

Exactly. They do not want to change. They are in love with what they have been taught, not the truth. That is why they do not recognize, acknowledge and embrace the truth when it is presented.

If they wanted to know what is what they would accept what it says.

Threads like this reveal a lot.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I couldn't care less whether you change your view or not. I'm simply presenting the contradictions of Premillennialism. As you can see above by the avoidance, there is no rebuttal forthcoming.

If you want to reject the truth that is on you. I am free. I have blown the trumpet.

But you did not

And I know you from past conversations nothing anyone says will change your mind

I challenge you to change my mind, feel free to try.

I read this thread. nothing here even comes close to challenging me.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is not our job to switch your view. That is between you and the Lord. Now you heard the truth, except that it is not OUR words, but the Word of God. We are merely witnesses of it.

what truth?

I heard a bunch of interpretations. and then interpretataions of those interpretation which make you THINK you refuted my faith.

If you want to be proud and talk like a hypocrite or angry person who hates people like me so much you have to say things like irrefutable truth. it is on you to change my mind

If you want to discuss it like normal human beliefs and humble children of God., you would just talk and share you view, and welcome others to chare their view.

But as I have witnessed. you people do not want to do this.

So take your pride and your arrogance someplace else.

You will never convince one person to come your way, even if you had to truth, people do not take kindly to this kind of rhetoric.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But you did not

And I know you from past conversations nothing anyone says will change your mind

I challenge you to change my mind, feel free to try.

I read this thread. nothing here even comes close to challenging me.

How can we believe that you read his original posts and believe that nothing he said challenges you when you will not even address one single point that he made?

 

[WPM]

But you did not

And I know you from past conversations nothing anyone says will change your mind

I challenge you to change my mind, feel free to try.

I read this thread. nothing here even comes close to challenging me.

I am here to present the truth. If you noticed error, I suspect you would shout it from the roof top.

It is obviously watertight. That is why Premils are so silent and you are running.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly. They do not want to change. They are in love with what they have been taught, not the truth. That is why they do not recognize, acknowledge and embrace the truth when it is presented.

I rest my case.

the same argument could be said of you. You love what you have been taught they is why you do not acknowledge the truth when it is shown you.

This is pure and plain pride talking. No argument, No fact. No bible. just attack and childish behavor.

You proved my point. thank you. and with this, i bid you all ado.. Live in your fantasy world..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am here to present the truth. If you noticed error i suspect you would shout it from the roof top. But there is nothing. That is why Premils are deafenly silent.

No, Your here to attack premill people who you do not agree with. You have proven that your last two posts.

Good day sir. I will pray for God to humble you..

 

[WPM]

If you want to be proud and talk like a hypocrite or angry person who hates people like me

Projection!