Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[WPM]

This is pure and plain pride talking. No argument, No fact. No bible. just attack and childish behavor.

You have just described yourself!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I rest my case.

the same argument could be said of you. You love what you have been taught they is why you do not acknowledge the truth when it is shown you.

This is pure and plain pride talking. No argument, No fact. No bible. just attack and childish behavor.

You proved my point. thank you. and with this, i bid you all ado.. Live in your fantasy world..

There are plenty of arguments, facts and Bible verses in the original posts in this thread. How about you address one or two of them instead of just whining incessantly?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

But what many Premillennialists do not consider is that if believers have not yet had their part in the first resurrection, and if, as Scripture teaches, it is the actual means by which we overcome the second death, and it is still future, then the second death still has power over believers in this life.

There is no if about it. The 1st Resurrection concerns the Church at the present time, at the last ( 7th) trumpet, at the 2nd coming of Christ. It's very explicit, it says for those who take part in the 1st resurrection are blessed and holy, the second death has no power over us (which will happen 1000 years later) - because we are already resurrected. To clarify, the 2nd resurrection pertains to people saved after the first ( those who missed out, realized AFTER THEY SAW HIM, so died during the end of the Great Tribulation or persevered and made it in order TO ENTER INTO THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM AND those who are born during the MK - who must also make a decision sometime during theor lives.
The first death is the physical body. But the Second Death is when God destroyes both body and soul in the Lake of Fire ( at which time btw the 1st Earth and 1st heavens are destroyed as well in a fervent heat ( 2 Peter 3:10).
So the 2nd Death includes all: Death, Hades (all unbelievers who are in it), 1st earth, 1st heavens ( atmosphere and physical universe).
Then the New Jerusalem replaces them.

There is another major contradiction in Premillennialism that many fail to consider, and that is, if the first resurrection is the actual means by which we overcome the second death, and if it is yet future, and it relates to the physical resurrection of the dead in Christ, this means that the living in Christ do not partake in the only means by which we conquer the second death at the second coming. After all, they do not die, they are therefore not resurrected. They are changed in a moment and caught up to be with Jesus in the air.

The dead in Christ are translated first at the sound of the last trumpet 1 Thes. 4:16.
Then we will be changed and caught up to join them. (vs. 17)
How long between those two miracles? A twinkling of an eye later, a second, a minute?
It is an angel blowing the trumpet _ in heaven, so the spiritual transformation of the dead in Christ happens instantly. The spiritual sound enters into the physical realm and how long does it take to reach us? We are also changed instantly but at the sound _ which we don't hear instantly. What?
I would submit a math calculation of 4.77 minutes for the last trumpet to be heard.
The trumpet sound enters from the spiritual dimension outside of the physical. Let's say it enters earth's atmosphere 62 miles up where space begins. Sound does not travel in space since it is a vacuum. So 780 mph takes 4.77 minutes to reach us. That is why the dead in Christ rise first, they take 5 to get acclimated, cjwck theor new bodies, say hello to everyone - then we join them!

 

[WPM]

There is no if about it. The 1st Resurrection concerns the Church at the present time, at the last ( 7th) trumpet, at the 2nd coming of Christ. It's very explicit, it says for those who take part in the 1st resurrection are blessed and holy, the second death has no power over us (which will happen 1000 years later) - because we are already resurrected. To clarify, the 2nd resurrection pertains to people saved after the first ( those who missed out, realized AFTER THEY SAW HIM, so died during the end of the Great Tribulation or persevered and made it in order TO ENTER INTO THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM AND those who are born during the MK - who must also make a decision sometime during theor lives.
The first death is the physical body. But the Second Death is when God destroyes both body and soul in the Lake of Fire ( at which time btw the 1st Earth and 1st heavens are destroyed as well in a fervent heat ( 2 Peter 3:10).
So the 2nd Death includes all: Death, Hades (all unbelievers who are in it), 1st earth, 1st heavens ( atmosphere and physical universe).
Then the New Jerusalem replaces them.

The dead in Christ are translated first at the sound of the last trumpet 1 Thes. 4:16.
Then we will be changed and caught up to join them. (vs. 17)
How long between those two miracles? A twinkling of an eye later, a second, a minute?
It is an angel blowing the trumpet _ in heaven, so the spiritual transformation of the dead in Christ happens instantly. The spiritual sound enters into the physical realm and how long does it take to reach us? We are also changed instantly but at the sound _ which we don't hear instantly. What?
I would submit a math calculation of 4.77 minutes for the last trumpet to be heard.
The trumpet sound enters from the spiritual dimension outside of the physical. Let's say it enters earth's atmosphere 62 miles up where space begins. Sound does not travel in space since it is a vacuum. So 780 mph takes 4.77 minutes to reach us. That is why the dead in Christ rise first, they take 5 to get acclimated, cjwck theor new bodies, say hello to everyone - then we join them!

The Op rebuts this. Please address it instead of making an evasive presentation.

 

[tailgator]

How about you address the points made in the original posts? Are you afraid to put your doctrine up to scrutiny? Is it based only on Revelation 20 without taking any other scripture into account to make sure your interpretation of Revelation 20 doesn't contradict any other scripture?

I didn't see where the original post said much of the first resurection so I stick with the verses that actually talk about the first resurection.

The first resurection of them who are beheaded for their witness of Jesus.

Have you been beheaded,?


Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I bet you don't know what day it is when Christ returns and resurects these saints who died for their testimony of Jesus
What 1000 year period is spoken of here?

 

[tailgator]

This is what the saints are doing in revelation 20.The ones who were beheaded for their witness of Jesus and which did not worship the beast or it's image,nor received its mark.They are resurected on the first resurection and they reign with Christ upon his throne



Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


They are reigning over the nations.


Revelation 20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I didn't see where the original post said much of the first resurection so I stick with the verses that actually talk about the first resurection.

Are you afraid to address anything from the orginal posts in the thread? After all, that's what this thread is about. Looks like you know you can't refute anything said in those posts since you aren't even attempting to do so.

The first resurection of them who are beheaded for their witness of Jesus.

Have you been beheaded,?


Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I bet you don't know what day it is when Christ returns and resurects these saints who died for their testimony of Jesus
What 1000 year period is spoken of here?

You're trying to get me to speak from your fautly perspective, but I'm not going to do that. I don't see the first resurrection as being only a bodily resurrection of people who have been literally beheaded like you do. So, tell me, are you pre-trib? Do you believe a mass bodily resurrection event occurs before the first resurrection?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no if about it. The 1st Resurrection concerns the Church at the present time, at the last ( 7th) trumpet, at the 2nd coming of Christ. It's very explicit, it says for those who take part in the 1st resurrection are blessed and holy, the second death has no power over us (which will happen 1000 years later) - because we are already resurrected.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Would you agree that having part in the first resurrection is a requirement in order for the second death to not have power over someone? That is what this verse seems to be saying. If so, do you believe that one must be bodily resurrected from the dead in order for the second death to have no power over them?

It says those who have part in the first resurrection are "priests of God and of Christ". Do you believe that those who belong to Christ are "priests of God and of Christ" now? You can use the following passage to help answer that question.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[tailgator]

Are you afraid to address anything from the orginal posts in the thread? After all, that's what this thread is about. Looks like you know you can't refute anything said in those posts since you aren't even attempting to do so.


You're trying to get me to speak from your fautly perspective, but I'm not going to do that. I don't see the first resurrection as being only a bodily resurrection of people who have been literally beheaded like you do. So, tell me, are you pre-trib? Do you believe a mass bodily resurrection event occurs before the first resurrection?

Sure I will address something in the original post.
The original post does not say anything about how the saints who are resurected died.
The original poster somehow misses the fact that these saints who reign with Christ for that 1000 years were beheaded for their witness of Jesus before they are resurected and begin their reign with Christ .


"them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,"


Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



You wouldn't know why the original poster seems to miss the fact that these saints were killed as Jesus said they would be in the gospel?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Op rebuts this. Please address it instead of making an evasive presentation.

Notice that no one even attempts to address any of the points you made in your OP. It's not hard to see why.

 

[tailgator]

Notice that no one even attempts to address any of the points you made in your OP. It's not hard to see why.

I just addressed something.

The OP omitted how the resurected saints died .


You wouldn't know why the OP omitted such an important verse from the discussion would you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure I will address something in the original post.
The original post does not say anything about how the saints who are resurected died.

LOL. How are you addressing something in the original post by referencing something it doesn't say? How about addressing what it does say? Quote something from it that he said and address it. Is that too much to ask? You expect us to address your points before you even address one of his? Is that fair? I don't think so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I just addressed something.

The OP omitted how the resurected saints died .

That's not addressing anything in the OP. I don't even know what you're talking about. Do you not know how to communicate? You clearly didn't even read the OP because he never says that resurrected saints don't die. How can they be resurrected if they don't die if we're talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead? But, he also doesn't agree with your understanding of having part in the first resurrection. If you actually read the OP you would know that and would then address how he interprets that.

 

[tailgator]

LOL. How are you addressing something in the original post by referencing something it doesn't say? How about addressing what it does say? Quote something from it that he said and address it. Is that too much to ask? You expect us to address your points before you even address one of his? Is that fair? I don't think so.

So ,your argument is if you can take one verse out of context,you can attempt to change its meanjng.

I see where you are coming from.

 

[WPM]

I just addressed something.

The OP omitted how the resurected saints died .


You wouldn't know why the OP omitted such an important verse from the discussion would you?

That is not true.

It does not say that the first resurrection is martyred saints. Quote it! That relates to the dead in Christ now in heaven during this current intra-Advent period. Man's part in Christ's first resurrection is speaking about salvation. Read the Op. While all the martyrs have had their part in the first resurrection, nowhere does it restrict to them. All believers have their part in the first resurrection. Without that they would experience the second death and be eternally damned.

 

[WPM]

Notice that no one even attempts to address any of the points you made in your OP. It's not hard to see why.

That is because it is spot on! It forbids the Premil argument. What can they do with that? Deny Scripture?

 

[tailgator]

Revelation 20:6 tells us: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

What is "the second death" and what is the biblical means by which we escape it? At what point does the second death no longer have power over someone? When does that kick in?

The second death

When it comes to the meaning of “the second death” most evangelicals are in solid agreement that this is talking about eternal damnation. Revelation 20:14 tells us: “death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

References to the term “the second death” are only found in the book of Revelation. Outside of our main references in Revelation 20, we find only two other mentions, in Revelation chapters 2 and 21. Revelation 21:6-8 outlines the nature of the second death and those that see it, and most important the type and way a person escapes it, saying, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

But what many Premillennialists do not consider is that if believers have not yet had their part in the first resurrection, and if, as Scripture teaches, it is the actual means by which we overcome the second death, and it is still future, then the second death still has power over believers in this life. That means they have not already experienced eternal life in which they shall never die, and overcome eternal death, as Jesus and the New Testament writers continually promised happens upon salvation. They have not been delivered from darkness to light. They still don't possess an eternal hope. They have not yet defeated sin, death and Hades. They are not then seated in heavenly places. This reality is still future. This false teaching, negates numerous explicit New Testament passages. This is what Premillennialism produces – contradiction after contradiction.

There is another major contradiction in Premillennialism that many fail to consider, and that is, if the first resurrection is the actual means by which we overcome the second death, and if it is yet future, and it relates to the physical resurrection of the dead in Christ, this means that the living in Christ do not partake in the only means by which we conquer the second death at the second coming. After all, they do not die, they are therefore not resurrected. They are changed in a moment and caught up to be with Jesus in the air.

Only the Amillennialist explanation makes sense, is supported by numerous other Scripture, and recognizes the current ongoing realization of this great fulfillment. Only this interpretation embraces all the elect – which is the thrust of the teaching. The reality is, all God’s people have their part in Christ’s first resurrection and therefore escape eternal damnation.

This resurrection has to be spiritual “in Christ.” Notably, this promise in Revelation 20:6 is in the present tense, thus supporting the Amil interpretation. Basically, this is not simply a future hope, it is a present reality for the redeemed. When we get saved, all the redeemed of all times (without exception) partake in this glorious resurrection. This therefore gives them a current ongoing everlasting victory over eternal punishment (as repeatedly taught in Scripture).

The first resurrection

The first resurrection is shown elsewhere throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection.

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first [Gr. protos] that should rise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (or prototokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

The word prototokos here is the combination of protos (Strong’s 4416) and tikto (Strong’s 5088). It means what it says.

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten (or prototokos) of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first [Gr. protos] resurrection [Gr. anastasis]: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

This is evidence! This is corroboration!

The biblical means by which we escape the second death is remaining faithful untill death.

Revelation 2
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So ,your argument is if you can take one verse out of context,you can attempt to change its meanjng.

I see where you are coming from.

If you're going to make these kinds of accusations, then back them up! Otherwise, shut up.

 

[tailgator]

That is because it is spot on! It forbids the Premil argument. What can they do with that? Deny Scripture?

The saints who are resurected in the first resurection remained faithful untill death.
They suffer tribulation being placed in prison and killed because they followed Christ and continued his work

Revelation 2
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

[tailgator]

If you're going to make these kinds of accusations, then back them up! Otherwise, shut up.

I quote the verse in context.
The saints died for their witness of Jesus.

They did exactly what Jesus said to do in the gospel.