Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

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Davidpt

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It's not a bodily resurrection that is required to escape the second death

Total nonsense and here is why. Apply escaping the 2nd death for all of eternity then tell us a bodily resurrection is not required to do that. You are reasoning these things in vaccuum here. You are not even factoring in that no one, including the saved that has already died, can escape the 2nd death for all of eternity unless they are bodily raised first.

Guess what it means in the meantime? It means they are still physically dead. So what if they are in heaven in a disembodied state, they are still dead here back on earth and will remain dead here back on earth until they are bodily raised first. And once they bodily rise that is when they have escaped the 2nd death forever since the 2nd death means to be dead forever, but that they are no longer dead, they are bodily alive instead, this time for forever. You can't conflate a disembodied state with that of an immortal body state. The former won't get you through all of eternity, the latter will. A disembodied state means to be physically dead back on earth.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I understand far more than you think.
How can I believe that after you falsely said to me: "You say the bodily resurrection at the coming of Christ is not bodily."? I can't. If you can't even understand that I don't come anywhere near believing what you said I believe, then I don't think you can understand much at all.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Total nonsense and here is why. Apply escaping the 2nd death for all of eternity then tell us a bodily resurrection is not required to do that.
As is almost always the case, you miss the point. Revelation 20:6 talks about the second death not having any power over someone while they live and reign with Christ. How does the second death have any power of the souls of the dead in Christ right now? It doesn't. So, why do you say that can't be true until someone is bodily resurrected? Talk about total nonsense.

You are reasoning these things in vaccuum here.
LOL. You are so ironic with many of your statements.

You are not even factoring in that no one, including the saved that has already died, can escape the 2nd death for all of eternity unless they are bodily raised first.
Say what now? How can those who are alive when Christ returns escape the second death if you have to be bodily resurrected to escape it? They aren't going to die, so they won't be resurrected. You're not even thinking here.

Guess what it means in the meantime? It means they are still physically dead. So what if they are in heaven in a disembodied state, they are still dead here back on earth and will remain dead here back on earth until they are bodily raised first. And once they bodily rise that is when they have escaped the 2nd death forever since the 2nd death means to be dead forever, but that they are no longer dead, they are bodily alive instead, this time for forever. You can't conflate a disembodied state with that of an immortal body state. The former won't get you through all of eternity, the latter will. A disembodied state means to be physically dead back on earth.
How will those who are alive when Jesus comes escape the second death if one has to have part in the bodily resurrection of the dead to escape it?
 

tailgator

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How can I believe that after you falsely said to me: "You say the bodily resurrection at the coming of Christ is not bodily."? I can't. If you can't even understand that I don't come anywhere near believing what you said I believe, then I don't think you can understand much at all.


It doesn't matter if you believe me or not.You still wouldn't understand .You read about it and you just don't get it
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It doesn't matter if you believe me or not.You still wouldn't understand .You read about it and you just don't get it
Great. So, you don't understand me and I don't understand you. Looks like we have no reason to talk to each other then. That's fine with me.
 

WPM

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I'd answer you but you argue like a woman and I'm not partial to that.

I dont think I'm an example to anyone, I'm nobody man. I know that and I aint seeking noteriety, lol. So you shouldnt be as offened as you are of little old me. I aint nothing to you except perhaps brothers in Christ. I wasnt insulting you, I made a few observations. So what? Dont get defensive. Oh but you insult me all the time. It's been a good couple months since I dished out an insult to you rude amil guys. But that's what you want to bring up? That's why I say you argue like a woman, and that's not an insult either! That is an observation so you can put the victim card away and talk like a man...or not.

That was two months ago! Got anything from this month? No you dont. Not because I think I'm special, because I am putting forth effort. That's all. When you stop being better, you stop being good.
We are simply wanting you to address Scripture. Is that too much to ask?

Thank you for making an effort with your rhetoric. But, calling a Christian man a women is deliberately offensive though. You should withdraw that and apologize immediately. That is so unChristlike.
 
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WPM

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I understand far more than you think.
I was reading the news today about the man of sin.He said he had talked to the beast on a phone call on Sunday and said the beast asked his advise about how to deal with its enemies..The man of sin said he told him to "do what you have to do".

Now according to scripture,the man of sin gives his armed forces to the beast and it is at that time the saints are imprisoned and killed in the beasts kingdom.

Now you have absolutely no clue as to who or what I'm talking about. That show just how much you understand what you read in the bible.Next year when the man of sin gives the beast his armed forces,you still won't understand even though you have both read about it in the bible and would have seen it fulfilled.
No one cares about the imaginations in your head.
 
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WPM

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You say the bodily resurrection at the coming of Christ is not bodily.

Scripture shows these saints literally coming out of their graves flesh bones and all before Gog invades.
When did he say that?
 

Davidpt

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The OP claims it has it has Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture. Let's see if that might be so by looking at some of this per the following angle.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them(Revelation 20:4)

Let's start with this, but unfortunately, some Amils, maybe even all Amils, apparently think the OT can never help explain anything in the NT, it is always the other way around, in every single case. Whatever. If you say so. I don't agree, though.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


The reason why I included verse 21 is because that is obviously involving the 42 month reign of the beast that must precede the 2nd coming. Therefore, verse 22 is obviously meaning the 2nd coming since we know from the NT it is the 2nd coming that puts an end to the 42 month reign of the beast.

And what does verse 22 record? This---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High---almost word for word exactly what Revelation 20:4 records here---and judgment was given unto them

In the KJV these two portions would like this side by side.

and judgment was given to the saints of the most High
and judgment was given unto them

Obviously, now we know without a doubt who the 'them' are meaning in Revelation 20:4. According to Daniel 7:22 they are meaning the saints of the most High. It can't get any clearer nor plainer than this. And that Daniel 7:22 is meaning as of the 2nd coming, this is when judgment is given to them. Therefore, also revealing the correct era of time meant in Revelation 20:4, obviously.


But instead of Amils accepting this, they look for ways to alter the meaning and era of time meant here by using similar tactics that preterists use, though it is crystal clear as to the meaning and era of time meant here. And it is obvious why Amils do this. Because if they don't do it they then have to admit their doctrine of Amil simply can't work after all. IOW, they place their doctrines high above the truth.

Thus, they use similar tactics that preterists employ by insisting a different era of time is meant rather than the actual era of time meant. For example, how preterists interpret this generation shall not pass, in the Discourse.

Daniel 7:22 is undeniably meaning the beginning of the millennium. Daniel 7:22 is undeniably involving the 2nd coming since verse 21 is undeniably involving the 42 month reign of the beast, and that the 42 month reign of the beast undeniably precedes the 2nd coming. Yet, the OP insists it has Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture...lol. As if Daniel 7:22 agrees with Amil rather than Premil.

Even if Amils admit that Daniel 7:22 is involving the beginning of the millennium, they then have to employ preterist-like tactics in order to change the coming in verse 22 to be involving the first coming rather than the 2nd coming. Which then makes total nonsense out of verse 21 which has to precede verse 22. Now, instead of applying verse 21 to the final days of this age, we have to apply it to 2000 years ago since we had to change the 2nd coming to be meaning the 1st coming. Clearly, Amils, just like preterists do with the coming in the Discourse by changing it to mean the first coming rather than the 2nd coming, thus they can't be trusted to be honest with the texts , neither can Amils be trusted to be honest with the texts involved since they copycat what preterists do. Yet, the OP insists it has Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture.
 
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MA2444

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We are simply wanting you to address Scripture. Is that too much to ask?

Thank you for making an effort with your rhetoric. But, calling a Christian man a women is deliberately offensive though. You should withdraw that and apologize immediately. That is so unChristlike.

Yes thats asking too much because I have done that a dozen times and you wont ever address the scripture or what is said and you only seek to control the narrative. So I dont play those games.

And maybe I'd not call that man(?) a woman if he didnt act like one? Deliberately offensive? No. I know how to be deliberately offensive and that wasnt it. That was just two men talking and if you cant remember that men talk like that then perhaps you should stop hanging out with the girls too much? WHat do you mean I am offensive? Did I hurt you? Did I hurt him? That's weird man.

Men dont talk like that. Oh you have offended me! What?! That's what women say! WHat are you guys who use womanly speech patterns to try to control the narrative trying to do with playing oh I am the victim you've hurt my feelings! You cant see that? Since when have men talked like that?

Allow me to demonstrate how men and women talk: WHen a man says something to another man, he responds to what was said and is to the point. And women they are all oh what about this? WHat about that? You hurt my feelings...That's ridiculous.
 

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MA2444

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The top line is how men talk. The bottome line is how he/women talks. When you try to be serious and when someone has said something or posted scripture and then you guys go off on all these tangents which I believe is only designed to control the narrative. Simple.

Sayig a man talks like a woman is offensive to men. Now if I had puched him in the face, then I can understand him saying that was offensive. But...it's unnatural to hear such things from men.
 

CadyandZoe

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But what many Premillennialists do not consider is that if believers have not yet had their part in the first resurrection, and if, as Scripture teaches, it is the actual means by which we overcome the second death, and it is still future, then the second death still has power over believers in this life.
That isn't true. Unlike the Amillennial position, which believes that the "first resurrection" is Jesus' resurrection, Premillennialists believe that the first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ's followers at his coming. Since your premise is incorrect, your argument fails.
There is another major contradiction in Premillennialism that many fail to consider, and that is, if the first resurrection is the actual means by which we overcome the second death, and if it is yet future, and it relates to the physical resurrection of the dead in Christ, this means that the living in Christ do not partake in the only means by which we conquer the second death at the second coming. After all, they do not die, they are therefore not resurrected. They are changed in a moment and caught up to be with Jesus in the air.
That isn't true. Paul argued that the resurrection of the dead will not prevent or hinder the raising of the living. All of Jesus' followers, whether dead in Christ or remaining alive will go to meet him together. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 They will meet him in the clouds of the sky. 4:17 And he will bring them back to earth to rule with him. Revelation 19:14
 

tailgator

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When did he say that?
He had stated in another thread that the resurected saints in revelation 20 were not bodily resurected.

Ezekiel 37 shows that they are bodily resurected and that they live in the land of Israel when Gog comes against them in Ezekiel 38.

For some reason he believes the resurected saints of Israel who died for their testimony of Jesus and who did not worship the beast or it's image,nor received its mark will be spiritually resurected and float around in the sky.Both revelation 20 and Ezekiel 37 shows those saints living on earth when Gog comes against them as God said they would in Deuteronomy.
 

tailgator

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No one cares about the imaginations in your head.
PS
The beast had stated in 2020 that he wants to put microchips in everyone who has followed after him from all nations(immigrants).
He said he wants everyone in his kingdom to receive one and stated that his government would pass legislation for this purpose.Last year he was attempting to change laws as scripture says he would.

If you want to know what's going on ,the only thing you need to do is pay attention.If you don't pay attention and rather sleep,you won't know what's going on.
 

WPM

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The top line is how men talk. The bottome line is how he/women talks. When you try to be serious and when someone has said something or posted scripture and then you guys go off on all these tangents which I believe is only designed to control the narrative. Simple.

Sayig a man talks like a woman is offensive to men. Now if I had puched him in the face, then I can understand him saying that was offensive. But...it's unnatural to hear such things from men.
You have zero interest in engaging in biblical discussion. And no, you do not present scriptural arguments. Your posts are bereft of that. There is nothing to rebut apart from your opinions. The reader a see that by doing a search of your posts.

You prefer ad hominem.

It is a waste of time engaging with you.
 
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WPM

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He had stated in another thread that the resurected saints in revelation 20 were not bodily resurected.

Ezekiel 37 shows that they are bodily resurected and that they live in the land of Israel when Gog comes against them in Ezekiel 38.

For some reason he believes the resurected saints of Israel who died for their testimony of Jesus and who did not worship the beast or it's image,nor received its mark will be spiritually resurected and float around in the sky.Both revelation 20 and Ezekiel 37 shows those saints living on earth when Gog comes against them as God said they would in Deuteronomy.
No, he said the dead in Christ that are reigning now in Christ are there in spirit. The physical resurrection comes at the end of Revelation 20.
 

WPM

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That isn't true. Unlike the Amillennial position, which believes that the "first resurrection" is Jesus' resurrection, Premillennialists believe that the first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ's followers at his coming. Since your premise is incorrect, your argument fails.

That isn't true. Paul argued that the resurrection of the dead will not prevent or hinder the raising of the living. All of Jesus' followers, whether dead in Christ or remaining alive will go to meet him together. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 They will meet him in the clouds of the sky. 4:17 And he will bring them back to earth to rule with him. Revelation 19:14
You duck around the central points that I am making and simply just repeat what you believe.

I have showed you that Scripture disallows Premillennialism. There is obviously no rebuttal to the Op. Nothing you say negates that. Facts are stubborn things.
 

MA2444

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You have zero interest in engaging in biblical discussion. And no, you do not present scriptural arguments. Your posts are bereft of that. There is nothing to rebut apart from your opinions. The reader a see that by doing a search of your posts.

You prefer ad hominem.

It is a waste of time engaging with you.

Your buddy said the same thing to me awhile back. Then he responds to my post to you and starts playing victim cards and so I responded to him and he got offended and I hurt his feelings. Now he says he wont respond to me anymore AGAIN.

You promise? Does he promise? That would be totally cool with me.