POSTRIB RAPTURE. A BIBLE ONLY VIEW

[David in NJ]

Not many are here in this thread because we didn't fall for your bait. We already proved post-trib and refuted pretrib extensively in two other threads, but somehow that wasn't enough for you. Clearly, you will not seriously consider anything we say, so don't be dishonest and act otherwise.

They made their bed.

 

[jeffweeder]

My job is to report the word.

Thats all I have been doing, quoting scripture.
You should try it sometime, instead of Just spouting your opinion on things you cannot quote from the Bible

Just look at all the Bible changers lined up to tell me verses from God are wrong.

Lets put that to the test by quoting OT Scriptures that speak of the dead being raised. Will you do that???
I bet you won't, because if you do, it will totally destroy your argument.

Its not a long list.... like 1 solid scripture, that will finally put to rest this nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thats all I have been doing, quoting scripture.
You should try it sometime, instead of Just spouting your opinion on things you cannot quote from the Bible

Lets put that to the test by quoting OT Scriptures that speak of the dead being raised. Will you do that???
I bet you won't, because if you do, it will totally destroy your argument.

Its not a long list....like 1 scripture that will finally put to rest this nonsense.

Trying to get him to actually exegete scripture seems impossible. He just refuses to do it. And, yet, he thinks he has won the debate despite doing absolutely nothing to prove anything. I've never seen anyone more delusional in my life. I can't even say his arguments are weak because he has no arguments at all. No matter what we do to try to get him to actually quote scripture and show exactly how he interprets it, he never does. It's impossible to take him seriously.

 

[jeffweeder]

Trying to get him to actually exegete scripture seems impossible. He just refuses to do it. And, yet, he thinks he has won the debate despite doing absolutely nothing to prove anything. I've never seen anyone more delusional in my life. I can't even say his arguments are weak because he has no arguments at all. No matter what we do to try to get him to actually quote scripture and show exactly how he interprets it, he never does. It's impossible to take him seriously.

How we try.
Post 10 to 20 says it all.
Nothing but opinion despite a slight acknowledgment.

 

[David in NJ]

Here is a passage that Pre-Tribs believe to the true:

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Pre-trib doctrine rejects the words of Christ in Matthew ch24

It is essential that we say we believe - but pre-trib doctrine does not unless they change scripture.

Oh wait, i know, there are multiple Comings of the LORD found in........................................let me know if you find a single verse!

 

[David in NJ]

Not exactly. This passage is about the Second Coming, not the Rapture.

The Second Coming is the only time/Event that the rapture will be experienced by "alive remaining saints" per The Gathering.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[David in NJ]

Thats all I have been doing, quoting scripture.
You should try it sometime, instead of Just spouting your opinion on things you cannot quote from the Bible

Lets put that to the test by quoting OT Scriptures that speak of the dead being raised. Will you do that???
I bet you won't, because if you do, it will totally destroy your argument.

Its not a long list.... like 1 solid scripture, that will finally put to rest this nonsense.

OT Scripture that pinpoints Timing of the Resurrection(Second Coming) = Daniel 12:1-3

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Thats all I have been doing, quoting scripture.
You should try it sometime, instead of Just spouting your opinion on things you cannot quote from the Bible

Lets put that to the test by quoting OT Scriptures that speak of the dead being raised. Will you do that???
I bet you won't, because if you do, it will totally destroy your argument.

Its not a long list.... like 1 solid scripture, that will finally put to rest this nonsense.

Get real friend.
Get honest

If you can not get honest , you can not debate.
All debate depends on honesty.
Part of this thread is to address the very thing you guys do.
Falsely accuse.
Accuse, reframe our VERSES , and omit.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Here we have an entire page dedicated to put downs and silly accusations.
How true that you guys can not debate me

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes; when Jesus Returns, He will gather His faithful peoples to Him. To where He will be: In Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:4
This truth does destroy pre-trib, as the Christian peoples are still on earth during the 42 month period of world Satanic control. They will be gathered and transported to Jerusalem, from wherever they are. Most will come from the place of safety; Revelation 12:14
They won't get any body change at that time.

Uh, no, you proved nothing at all.
We believe he returns to Jerusalem.

 

[David in NJ]

Here we have an entire page dedicated to put downs and silly accusations.
How true that you guys can not debate me

i have responded to you with Scripture and love.

 

[rebuilder 454]

the Second Coming is the ONLY Person, Time and Place that the rapture will occur!

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The second coming on white horses is not Rev 14 's gathering.
Nor is it Acts 1 "like manner return" .
nor is it Lot being gathered pretrib
Nor is it normal life and commerce.
Nor is it the virgin parable.
You have such a weight of God's word against your solo misinterpreted banner verse.
Postribber fail on their only verse.

 

[rebuilder 454]

i have responded to you with Scripture and love.

I have met you and soundly addressed your one verse.
You will not engage me.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why are you such a liar? Post-trib was proven at the same time pretrib was refuted in two other very long threads before you created this one. Why are you acting as if post-tribs have not already presented our case? LOL. Give me a break. You are so dishonest.

Lol
Go play.

 

[David in NJ]

The second coming on white horses is not Rev 14 's gathering.
Nor is it Acts 1 "like manner return" .
nor is it Lot being gathered pretrib
Nor is it normal life and commerce.
Nor is it the virgin parable.
You have such a weight of God's word against your solo misinterpreted banner verse.
Postribber fail on their only verse.

WHY?

Do you have a specific verse that agrees with your thoughts?

 

[WPM]

If postrib rapture is a actual, factual Bible
Doctrine, convince me using a Bible, that it is true .
No name calling
No extra biblical dead men quotes from the early church.
No extra biblical anything.
No "pretrib is from hell"
No bible police, telling me or anyone else they are from Satan.
No weoponizing verses to try to use God's word to rebuke your opponent and paint someone as false and should be vaporized due to us being evil.

Lay it out with verses.

Use the Bible without any mention of the "error" of pretrib rapture.
Just pretend if you can actually do that, you will get $10,000 .
Should be real easy

Show us what you got.

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

The days before the coming of Christ will see the wicked at ease living in pleasure, sin and carelessness, with no thought of eternity. The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage) will continue as normal right up until Jesus comes. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

I Thessalonians 5:2-7 the enormity of this climactic event: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The peace and safety occurs just before Jesus comes at His one final future coming. Any way, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming of Christ, as some Pretribbers argue, and if they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, which they say is the end of a great 7 years tribulation, how can the wicked be crying “peace and safety”? Surely, according to Pretrib, this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

We can see then: normal life continues on right up until Christ comes. They are eating, drinking and marrying as usual, they are claiming "peace and safety," then utter destruction strikes them unexpectedly. As in the time of the flood, all the unbelievers are destroyed.

There is no space for your tribulation period and a 2nd rapture and a 3rd coming. There is no space for some future millennium. All those that are left behind are destroyed. All the wicked are dead. All the mortals are dead. All the saints are glorified and the earth is glorified. We're now into the eternal state.

 

[David in NJ]

I have met you and soundly addressed your one verse.
You will not engage me.

LOL

What verses have you posted?

Rev chapter 19 i KNOW =
SAME Second Coming as Revelation 6:12-17
SAME Second Coming as JESUS said in Matthew ch24 with more detail
SAME Second Coming as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 = HE is Coming with the Saints
SAME Second Coming as 2 Thessalonians chapter 2
SAME Second Coming as Daniel 12:1-3
SAME Second Coming as 1 Corinthians chapter 15

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, I have a comment or 2 or 3 to make.
Thanks for answering.
Paul never taught 2 phases to Lords coming, but teaches according to the Lords own word.
In 1 thess4 and 5 both the righteous and the ungodly are dealt with by his coming.

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

5 Now as to the times and dates, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord is coming just as a thief [comes unexpectedly and suddenly] in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety [all is well and secure!]” then [in a moment unforeseen] destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains on a woman with child, and they will absolutely not escape [for there will be no way to escape the judgment of the Lord]. 4 But you, believers, [all you who believe in Christ as Savior and acknowledge Him as God’s Son] are not in spiritual darkness [nor held by its power], that the day [of judgment] would overtake you [by surprise] like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day.

2thess leaves one in no doubt about this truth.
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

The popular encyclopedia of Bible prophecy would not be popular among our NT writers.

You mentioned the rapture passages are as it was in the days of Noah.

2Pet 3
3 First of all, know [without any doubt] that mockers will come in the last days with their mocking, following after their own human desires 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming [what has become of it]?
5 For they willingly forget [the fact] that the heavens existed long ago by the word of God, and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

8 Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. 9 The Lord does not delay [as though He were unable to act] and is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [extraordinarily] patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish with a [mighty and thunderous] roar, and the [material] elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be [in the meantime] in holy behavior [that is, in a pattern of daily life that sets you apart as a believer] and in godliness [displaying profound reverence toward our awesome God], 12 [while you earnestly] look for and await the coming of the day of God.

So, the nature of the Lords coming in 1 and 2 Thess, and the days of Noah in 2Pet in no way resemble a dual phase to the Lords coming.

You say there is no mention of satan in association to his coming to Glorify us. Well, there is...,


2thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.



The Lord is indeed coming in complete vengeance on the day we are glorified in him.

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

Wel well well.
Loookey here...we got a player.
Actually opened his Bible.
Thank you Jeff.
You are hoping to prove " one coming" ?
I agree with all those verses on their face value, but one coming is debunked decisively by a Bible.
Your hopes are not proven.
They are easily DISproven

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

The days before the coming of Christ will see the wicked at ease living in pleasure, sin and carelessness, with no thought of eternity. The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage) will continue as normal right up until Jesus comes. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

I Thessalonians 5:2-7 the enormity of this climactic event: “the day of the Lord will come (or appear or arrive) as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The peace and safety occurs just before Jesus comes at His one final future coming. Any way, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming of Christ, as some Pretribbers argue, and if they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, which they say is the end of a great 7 years tribulation, how can the wicked be crying “peace and safety”? Surely, according to Pretrib, this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

We can see then: normal life continues on right up until Christ comes. They are eating, drinking and marrying as usual, they are claiming "peace and safety," then utter destruction strikes them unexpectedly. As in the time of the flood, all the unbelievers are destroyed.

There is no space for your tribulation period and a 2nd rapture and a 3rd coming. There is no space for some future millennium. All those that are left behind are destroyed. All the wicked are dead. All the mortals are dead. All the saints are glorified and the earth is glorified. We're now into the eternal state.

the scriptures are CLEAR
there are "they" who are living in pleasure and are doomed
there is "we/us" who suffer for Righteousness sake BUT will be DELIVERED from God's Wrath

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

The days before the coming of Christ will see the wicked at ease living in pleasure, sin and carelessness, with no thought of eternity. The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage) will continue as normal right up until Jesus comes. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

I Thessalonians 5:2-7 the enormity of this climactic event: “the day of the Lord will come (or appear or arrive) as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The peace and safety occurs just before Jesus comes at His one final future coming. Any way, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming of Christ, as some Pretribbers argue, and if they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, which they say is the end of a great 7 years tribulation, how can the wicked be crying “peace and safety”? Surely, according to Pretrib, this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

We can see then: normal life continues on right up until Christ comes. They are eating, drinking and marrying as usual, they are claiming "peace and safety," then utter destruction strikes them unexpectedly. As in the time of the flood, all the unbelievers are destroyed.

There is no space for your tribulation period and a 2nd rapture and a 3rd coming. There is no space for some future millennium. All those that are left behind are destroyed. All the wicked are dead. All the mortals are dead. All the saints are glorified and the earth is glorified. We're now into the eternal state.

So all 3 comings taught in the Bible are " the day of the Lord"
You are saying there are 3 "days of the Lord"