POSTRIB RAPTURE. A BIBLE ONLY VIEW

[Keraz]

Not exactly. This passage is about the Second Coming, not the Rapture.

Yes; when Jesus Returns, He will gather His faithful peoples to Him. To where He will be: In Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:4
This truth does destroy pre-trib, as the Christian peoples are still on earth during the 42 month period of world Satanic control. They will be gathered and transported to Jerusalem, from wherever they are. Most will come from the place of safety; Revelation 12:14
They won't get any body change at that time.

 

[Keraz]

This thread is disappointing thus far. The OP has challenged Post tribbers to undeniably prove Post trib. If I was still Pretrib and I was reading this thread, not one post made by any Post tribbber in here thus far would be enough to convince me Post trib is the correct view.

But there is proof - that there is NO rapture!
Mathew 24:30-31 make it clear that when Jesus Returns, His people will still be on earth. They will never leave the earth, that idea is a fanciful dream of the deluded and deceived. What Paul meant in 1 Thess 4:17, was a transportation, the same as Philip was; Acts 8:39

There is an alternative to the idea of being taken away from all that must take place during the end times and it will be amazing, when we Christians fulfil our destiny of being the people God always wanted in the holy Land. In our heritage: Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Romans 9:24-26, +
We are all believers in the Lord Jesus, He is our Saviour and Redeemer. We are told that we must stand firm in our faith and my concern is for those who want Jesus to remove them from the earth, when we should be prepared to endure trials and to serve Him in the coming Kingdom on earth.

 

[jeffweeder]

Not exactly. This passage is about the Second Coming, not the Rapture.

His elect from all over the world are gathered in that passage.
Where did Jesus speak of another gathering of the elect in his discourse in Matt 24.??

The disciples asked Jesus what the sign would be his coming and the end of the age.
First the Gospel must be preached in the whole world before the coming and the end of the age.


13 But the one who endures and bears up [under suffering] to the end will be saved. 14 This good news of the kingdom [the gospel] will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end [of the age] will come.

 

[KUWN]

His elect from all over the world are gathered in that passage.
Where did Jesus speak of another gathering of the elect in his discourse in Matt 24.??

The disciples asked Jesus what the sign would be his coming and the end of the age.
First the Gospel must be preached in the whole world before the coming and the end of the age.


13 But the one who endures and bears up [under suffering] to the end will be saved. 14 This good news of the kingdom [the gospel] will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end [of the age] will come.

The Rapture appears in the Olivet Discourse with "as it was in the days of Noah." But the Rapture is a mystery and we shouldn't expect to see the Rapture in the Old Testament, including the Gospels. It is a NT doctrine. Perhaps the following comparison of events between the Rapture and the Second Coming will help: (Taken from The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy)

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. vChrist judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

Hence, we conclude that there are two phases to the Second Coming of Christ. There is just no way possible to see these two phases as one phase. They are radically different.

 

[jeffweeder]

The Rapture appears in the Olivet Discourse with "as it was in the days of Noah." But the Rapture is a mystery and we shouldn't expect to see the Rapture in the Old Testament, including the Gospels. It is a NT doctrine. Perhaps the following comparison of events between the Rapture and the Second Coming will help: (Taken from The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy)

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. vChrist judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

Hence, we conclude that there are two phases to the Second Coming of Christ. There is just no way possible to see these two phases as one phase. They are radically different.

Would you say that the Apostle Paul will be part of phase 1?

 

[KUWN]

Would you say that the Apostle Paul will be part of phase 1?

You overlooked all those differences. No comment? Yes, Paul is going to be in Phase 1. All Christians will be in Phase 1. OT saints and Tribulation saints that die will be in Phase 2.

 

[jeffweeder]

You overlooked all those differences. No comment? Yes, Paul is going to be in Phase 1. All Christians will be in Phase 1. OT saints and Tribulation saints that die will be in Phase 2.

Yes, I have a comment or 2 or 3 to make.
Thanks for answering.
Paul never taught 2 phases to Lords coming, but teaches according to the Lords own word.
In 1 thess4 and 5 both the righteous and the ungodly are dealt with by his coming.

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

5 Now as to the times and dates, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord is coming just as a thief [comes unexpectedly and suddenly] in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety [all is well and secure!]” then [in a moment unforeseen] destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains on a woman with child, and they will absolutely not escape [for there will be no way to escape the judgment of the Lord]. 4 But you, believers, [all you who believe in Christ as Savior and acknowledge Him as God’s Son] are not in spiritual darkness [nor held by its power], that the day [of judgment] would overtake you [by surprise] like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day.

2thess leaves one in no doubt about this truth.
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

The popular encyclopedia of Bible prophecy would not be popular among our NT writers.

You mentioned the rapture passages are as it was in the days of Noah.

2Pet 3
3 First of all, know [without any doubt] that mockers will come in the last days with their mocking, following after their own human desires 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming [what has become of it]?
5 For they willingly forget [the fact] that the heavens existed long ago by the word of God, and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

8 Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. 9 The Lord does not delay [as though He were unable to act] and is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [extraordinarily] patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish with a [mighty and thunderous] roar, and the [material] elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be [in the meantime] in holy behavior [that is, in a pattern of daily life that sets you apart as a believer] and in godliness [displaying profound reverence toward our awesome God], 12 [while you earnestly] look for and await the coming of the day of God.

So, the nature of the Lords coming in 1 and 2 Thess, and the days of Noah in 2Pet in no way resemble a dual phase to the Lords coming.

You say there is no mention of satan in association to his coming to Glorify us. Well, there is...,


2thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.



The Lord is indeed coming in complete vengeance on the day we are glorified in him.

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus sending out his Angels to gather is still him gathering. Doesn't mean 2 different gatherings.
Where is the rapture vividly portrayed on Matt 25?


Which coming were the disciples referring to here...,

Matt 24
3 While Jesus was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, and said, “Tell us, when will this [destruction of the temple] take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end (completion, consummation) of the age?”

Where did Jesus differentiate between these supposed multiple comings so we wouldn't become confused?

If you belive the white horse coming is Noah, Lot, "one taken/one left" and Rev 14:14, as well as acts1, then I can not help you.
Just keep pretending they are.
I will show you once or twice, but it is foolish to show you what THE WORD SAYS, over and over, and watch you change it.
The entire end times is centered on the bride and groom.
That is the CENTER of what is next.
You are oblivious.
You are so obsessed with the gt, and worried to death about the audacity of Jesus in Lot's gathering, and the pretrib rapture verses needing changing, that you can not find the groom gathering the bride in mat 25.
It is troubling watching you guys celebrate a doctrine that does that to you.
That's tge problem with false doctrine.
All false doctrine is false, because ONCE YOU HAVE a big enough investment in it, you will betray the very bible you fooled yourself into your bogus claims.
My job is to report the word.
Just look at all the Bible changers lined up to tell me verses from God are wrong.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, I have a comment or 2 or 3 to make.
Thanks for answering.
Paul never taught 2 phases to Lords coming, but teaches according to the Lords own word.
In 1 thess4 and 5 both the righteous and the ungodly are dealt with by his coming.

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

5 Now as to the times and dates, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord is coming just as a thief [comes unexpectedly and suddenly] in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety [all is well and secure!]” then [in a moment unforeseen] destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains on a woman with child, and they will absolutely not escape [for there will be no way to escape the judgment of the Lord]. 4 But you, believers, [all you who believe in Christ as Savior and acknowledge Him as God’s Son] are not in spiritual darkness [nor held by its power], that the day [of judgment] would overtake you [by surprise] like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day.

2thess leaves one in no doubt about this truth.
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

The popular encyclopedia of Bible prophecy would not be popular among our NT writers.

You mentioned the rapture passages are as it was in the days of Noah.

2Pet 3
3 First of all, know [without any doubt] that mockers will come in the last days with their mocking, following after their own human desires 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming [what has become of it]?
5 For they willingly forget [the fact] that the heavens existed long ago by the word of God, and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

8 Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. 9 The Lord does not delay [as though He were unable to act] and is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [extraordinarily] patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish with a [mighty and thunderous] roar, and the [material] elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be [in the meantime] in holy behavior [that is, in a pattern of daily life that sets you apart as a believer] and in godliness [displaying profound reverence toward our awesome God], 12 [while you earnestly] look for and await the coming of the day of God.

So, the nature of the Lords coming in 1 and 2 Thess, and the days of Noah in 2Pet in no way resemble a dual phase to the Lords coming.

You say there is no mention of satan in association to his coming to Glorify us. Well, there is...,


2thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.



The Lord is indeed coming in complete vengeance on the day we are glorified in him.

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

Then the Bible Iswrong

This thread is disappointing thus far. The OP has challenged Post tribbers to undeniably prove Post trib. If I was still Pretrib and I was reading this thread, not one post made by any Post tribbber in here thus far would be enough to convince me Post trib is the correct view.

I probably couldn't do any better myself. Yet, I factor in things that Pretribbers apparently see not being relevant. Such as, if Pretrib is true, what would that mean per this passage or per that passage? Like the last trump, for example, where bodily immortality isn't put on until then. Does the Pretrib position agree with that or does it contradict that? Keeping in mind that there can't be a rapture unless there is a rising of the dead first. But I have already tried that route in other threads pertaining to Pretrib, and didn't manage to change any Pretribbers mind about anything.

There is only one thing at this point that is going to undeniably prove Post trib, thus disprove Pretrib, and that is when great tribulation is upon the church big time, where it is even affecting Christians in the USA, and that Pretribbers are still here. Until then this debate is futile. Pretribbers these days are not like the Pretribbers of my days. I was a Pretribber for decades, yet I still managed to abandon that view eventually.

Pretribbers these days are die hard Pretribbers that are never going to change their mind no matter what anyone argues. But they will change their mind eventually because they will have no choice at that point since great tribulation will be upon us big time and that they are all still here.

Note that you are showcasing the two methods of study

Which is part of my point.
Your worry is cliche's over substance.

Trump
Trumpet
Last trump
Day of the Lord

Then jettison every single pretrib rapture verse.

But it gets worse.
Every single postribber, WITHOUT fail, has painted themselves into "one coming".

That alone is TOTALLY against the bible

Hands down ridiculous.

But it gets worse.
The Bible EMPHATICALLY teaches that all receive the mark in the GT or died.

Postrib rapture is LITTERALLY IMPOSSIBLE.


but try to pretend you have our arsenal of verses, but you opponents are forbidden to look at them.

Futile.

So that is WHY I insist they stop the nonsense, open a Bible, and show us their Doctrine

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Rapture appears in the Olivet Discourse with "as it was in the days of Noah." But the Rapture is a mystery and we shouldn't expect to see the Rapture in the Old Testament, including the Gospels. It is a NT doctrine. Perhaps the following comparison of events between the Rapture and the Second Coming will help: (Taken from The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy)

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. vChrist judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

Hence, we conclude that there are two phases to the Second Coming of Christ. There is just no way possible to see these two phases as one phase. They are radically different.

Rev 14;14 is also a gathering/coming ...(of the Jews.)
And that gathering is neither the rapture, or the second coming on horses.
No postribber can unpack Rev 14:14
That verse alone obliterates their entire deal.

All the rapture verses are against them

Every single one is against their deal.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, I have a comment or 2 or 3 to make.
Thanks for answering.
Paul never taught 2 phases to Lords coming, but teaches according to the Lords own word.
In 1 thess4 and 5 both the righteous and the ungodly are dealt with by his coming.

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

5 Now as to the times and dates, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord is coming just as a thief [comes unexpectedly and suddenly] in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety [all is well and secure!]” then [in a moment unforeseen] destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains on a woman with child, and they will absolutely not escape [for there will be no way to escape the judgment of the Lord]. 4 But you, believers, [all you who believe in Christ as Savior and acknowledge Him as God’s Son] are not in spiritual darkness [nor held by its power], that the day [of judgment] would overtake you [by surprise] like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day.

2thess leaves one in no doubt about this truth.
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

The popular encyclopedia of Bible prophecy would not be popular among our NT writers.

You mentioned the rapture passages are as it was in the days of Noah.

2Pet 3
3 First of all, know [without any doubt] that mockers will come in the last days with their mocking, following after their own human desires 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming [what has become of it]?
5 For they willingly forget [the fact] that the heavens existed long ago by the word of God, and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

8 Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. 9 The Lord does not delay [as though He were unable to act] and is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [extraordinarily] patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish with a [mighty and thunderous] roar, and the [material] elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be [in the meantime] in holy behavior [that is, in a pattern of daily life that sets you apart as a believer] and in godliness [displaying profound reverence toward our awesome God], 12 [while you earnestly] look for and await the coming of the day of God.

So, the nature of the Lords coming in 1 and 2 Thess, and the days of Noah in 2Pet in no way resemble a dual phase to the Lords coming.

You say there is no mention of satan in association to his coming to Glorify us. Well, there is...,


2thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.



The Lord is indeed coming in complete vengeance on the day we are glorified in him.

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

 

[KUWN]

For now, just respond to the itemized list of the differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins


At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. vChrist judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

We can talk about your other response after this, but how are these two lists talking about the same event?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, I have a comment or 2 or 3 to make.
Thanks for answering.
Paul never taught 2 phases to Lords coming, but teaches according to the Lords own word.
In 1 thess4 and 5 both the righteous and the ungodly are dealt with by his coming.

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

5 Now as to the times and dates, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord is coming just as a thief [comes unexpectedly and suddenly] in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety [all is well and secure!]” then [in a moment unforeseen] destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains on a woman with child, and they will absolutely not escape [for there will be no way to escape the judgment of the Lord]. 4 But you, believers, [all you who believe in Christ as Savior and acknowledge Him as God’s Son] are not in spiritual darkness [nor held by its power], that the day [of judgment] would overtake you [by surprise] like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day.

2thess leaves one in no doubt about this truth.
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

The popular encyclopedia of Bible prophecy would not be popular among our NT writers.

You mentioned the rapture passages are as it was in the days of Noah.

2Pet 3
3 First of all, know [without any doubt] that mockers will come in the last days with their mocking, following after their own human desires 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming [what has become of it]?
5 For they willingly forget [the fact] that the heavens existed long ago by the word of God, and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

8 Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. 9 The Lord does not delay [as though He were unable to act] and is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [extraordinarily] patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish with a [mighty and thunderous] roar, and the [material] elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be [in the meantime] in holy behavior [that is, in a pattern of daily life that sets you apart as a believer] and in godliness [displaying profound reverence toward our awesome God], 12 [while you earnestly] look for and await the coming of the day of God.

So, the nature of the Lords coming in 1 and 2 Thess, and the days of Noah in 2Pet in no way resemble a dual phase to the Lords coming.

You say there is no mention of satan in association to his coming to Glorify us. Well, there is...,


2thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.



The Lord is indeed coming in complete vengeance on the day we are glorified in him.

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

QUOTE
"""Lord is indeed coming in complete vengeance on the day we are glorified in him"""
Not at the rapture.
Act 1 says he will return in like manner.
That would be in complete error if your theory is true.
The angels were way way off.

Hmmmmm, but it lines up PERFECTLY with a pretrib rapture
Fits like a glove.

Postrib rapture doctrine is poorly thought out.
That is a tough job defending what is not there.

 

[rebuilder 454]

His elect from all over the world are gathered in that passage.
Where did Jesus speak of another gathering of the elect in his discourse in Matt 24.??

The disciples asked Jesus what the sign would be his coming and the end of the age.
First the Gospel must be preached in the whole world before the coming and the end of the age.


13 But the one who endures and bears up [under suffering] to the end will be saved. 14 This good news of the kingdom [the gospel] will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end [of the age] will come.

The AC is given power to overcome the saints.
"The end" is death.
It is a blanket statement.
It says in Revelation that those left behind overcome the AC by their death.
When you are left behind you will face the AC.
You will receive the mark or refuse.
You will be martyred of take the mark.

You need to read every verse concerning the AC.
You will see, there is no postrib rapture, just by those verses alone.

 

[rebuilder 454]

His elect from all over the world are gathered in that passage.
Where did Jesus speak of another gathering of the elect in his discourse in Matt 24.??

The disciples asked Jesus what the sign would be his coming and the end of the age.
First the Gospel must be preached in the whole world before the coming and the end of the age.


13 But the one who endures and bears up [under suffering] to the end will be saved. 14 This good news of the kingdom [the gospel] will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end [of the age] will come.

BTW...what translation is that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This thread is disappointing thus far. The OP has challenged Post tribbers to undeniably prove Post trib. If I was still Pretrib and I was reading this thread, not one post made by any Post tribbber in here thus far would be enough to convince me Post trib is the correct view.

Did you not read the threads where pretrib was destroyed and overwhelming evidence was given in favor of post-trib? Pretrib was already destroyed extensively in two other threads (one of which was shut down), which is why he created this thread. He knew pretrib was getting proven wrong in those threads, so he created yet another thread to distract attention away from the other threads where pretrib was being thrashed. Many of us who participated in those threads saw no reason to jump over to this thread only to just repeat everything we already said in the other threads.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did you read the op?
You got nothing....that is your point?????
You don't know WHY nobody is in here????
They have a unique chance to post PROOF...BIBLICAL PROOF, THEIR DOCTRINE is from the bible.
You can't do that?????

Not many are here in this thread because we didn't fall for your bait. We already proved post-trib and refuted pretrib extensively in two other threads, but somehow that wasn't enough for you. Clearly, you will not seriously consider anything we say, so don't be dishonest and act otherwise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You just proved my point.
I specifically stated in the op that postribs must not hide behind " orange man bad/ pretrib bad"

No , this thread is for YOU to finally man up and convince us that YOU have the VERSES.

The hiding behind a win by default is for another thread.

But since you can not do that, maybe sit this one out?.

Why do you think nobody is in here?
Psssst.....Because they can not defend their own doctrine.

Why are you such a liar? Post-trib was proven at the same time pretrib was refuted in two other very long threads before you created this one. Why are you acting as if post-tribs have not already presented our case? LOL. Give me a break. You are so dishonest.

 

[David in NJ]

You just proved my point.
I specifically stated in the op that postribs must not hide behind " orange man bad/ pretrib bad"

No , this thread is for YOU to finally man up and convince us that YOU have the VERSES.

The hiding behind a win by default is for another thread.

But since you can not do that, maybe sit this one out?.

Why do you think nobody is in here?
Psssst.....Because they can not defend their own doctrine.

i am still getting a good lol at this - ty

 

[David in NJ]

Not exactly. This passage is about the Second Coming, not the Rapture.

the Second Coming is the ONLY Person, Time and Place that the rapture will occur!

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.