The battle of Gog and Magog does not happen until after the thousand year reign of Christ

[rwb]

There are no scriptures telling us that Jesus was risen spiritually or "made spiritually alive again" so that we "are made spiritually alive again".

Do you think His spirit of the living God returned to the Father without life? Every human spirit returns to God after our body breathes its last. Since the spirit returns to God after physical death, those having the Spirit of Christ within NEVER die, even though our physical body shall die.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John 14:16-19 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

 

[rwb]

No, we believing Gentiles have been grafted into the same tree as unnatural branches....and that is what it means where it mentions the "commonwealth of Israel", because it includes the nations (who believe). The wall of separation has been torn down....we are all one.

Why would God graft Gentiles of faith into Israel in unbelief? Paul shows us that Gentiles of faith are grafted in with Israel of faith, and not of Israel in blindness. That is how the wall of separation is taken away. Now, in Christ we are ALL, whether Jew or Gentile of the same tree of faith that is Christ, one people, one body, one like minded faith together "the Israel of God."

 

[rwb]

We are grafted into Abraham, not Israel.

We are grafted into the GOOD OLIVE TREE to become partakers of the ROOT (Christ)! Why & When? According to grace by faith when we hear and believe, possessing the same FAITH as Abraham.

Romans 11:17 (KJV) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Romans 4:12 (KJV) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Romans 4:13 (KJV) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 (KJV) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are grafted into the GOOD OLIVE TREE to become partakers of the ROOT (Christ)! Why & When? According to grace by faith when we hear and believe, possessing the same FAITH as Abraham.

Romans 11:17 (KJV) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Romans 4:12 (KJV) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Romans 4:13 (KJV) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 (KJV) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Right. And the good olive tree represents the kingdom of God. That is what we are grafted into by way of the root which represents Jesus Christ (Romans 15:12 - Isaiah 11:10). Notice that unbelieving Israelites of that day were cut off from the good olive tree. That lines up with Jesus having told the unbelieving chief priests and Pharisees that the kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to a nation that bears fruit for the kingdom of God, which is the holy nation Peter refers to in 1 Peter 2:9, which is the church.

 

[Douggg]

Every human spirit returns to God after our body breathes its last. Since the spirit returns to God after physical death, those having the Spirit of Christ within NEVER die, even though our physical body shall die.

I think that those having the Holy Spirit presence within their soul, will never die, albeit the natural bodies of men has being appointed to die.

I think when it speaks of the spirit of life, it is referring to a created beings like humans, animals, fish, and the like - when those created beings die, it is the spirit of life of that enabled that created being to have life, returning to God - Who gives all life.

Would you agree with that ?

 

[Zao is life]

It's used figuratively there to refer to our status as being spiritually alive in Christ in contrast to being formerly dead in our sins.

LOL. Your statements take more and more bizarre doctrinal twists and turns as you continue along trying to squirm your way into making your false statements, true. The above is once again totally non-scriptural nonsense. Absolute drivel. Amilleniialist inventions.

It's never used "figuratively" because there's nothing "figurative" about the Spirit of Christ dwelling in those who have been born of the eternal Spirit of God. It's never used "figuratively" as though the human spirit that was born of the eternal Spirit of God is only "figuratively" alive in Christ (which is what your ridiculous assertion above implies).

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me." -- John 17:23.

"Ye shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." -- John 14:20

Mankind was created to live on God's created earth, in a created body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die and live forever in heaven", and contrary to your invented false doctrine regarding this, the New Testament teaches that the bodies of those who are born of the (eternal) Spirit of God will be quickened (made alive) by the same eternal Spirit together with Christ's quickening,

and hence those who are born of the (eternal) Spirit of God will be bodily raised from the dead together with and through (i.e by) Christ's bodily resurrection from the dead.

Romans 8:10-11:

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken your mortal bodies [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you.".

zōopoiéō: God’s (eternal) Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

It does not constitute the "resurrection" of the human spirit from the dead but the birth of the human spirit by the (eternal) Spirit of God, and the resurrection of the human body from the dead.

And there is nothing "figurative" about the human spirit being spiritually alive in Christ through the indwelling of His Spirit, once it (the human spirit) has been born of the eternal Spirit of God.
​

Your above false assertion seeks to make us Christ's own resurrected body or implies that it is speaking "figuratively" of us as Christ's own resurrected body even though the scripture is telling us plainly that it is His eternal Spirit dwelling in those who have been born of His Spirit.

And the only spiritual human body that the New Testament speaks about is the resurrected human body that had died:

1 Corinthians 15:44:
-- It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. --

The word psychikós is from the word psychḗ (soul / life / mind).
The word pneumatikós is from the word pneûma (spirit / breath).​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. Your statements take more more and more bizarre doctrinal twists and turns as you continue along trying to squirm your way into making your false statements, true. The above is once again totally non-scriptural nonsense. Absolute drivel. Amilleniialist inventions.​

LOL. Okay, we're done, buddy. I can't reason with someone who takes such a hyperliteral approach to interpreting scripture and can't recognize that we have spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection by way of being spiritually saved which Paul likens to going from being dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ because of His bodily resurrection making that possible. And I'm not calling going from being spiritually dead in sins to being spiritually alive in Christ a resurrection, either. Everything you said after this was based on that false assumption. You obviously don't even understand what I believe, so forget it. This is a waste of time.

 

[Douggg]

LOL. Your statements take more more and more bizarre doctrinal twists and turns as you continue along trying to squirm your way into making your false statements, true. The above is once again totally non-scriptural nonsense. Absolute drivel. Amilleniialist inventions.

It's never used "figuratively" because there's nothing "figurative" about the Spirit of Christ dwelling in those who have been born of the eternal Spirit of God. It's never used "figuratively" as though the human spirit that was born of the eternal Spirit of God is only "figuratively" alive in Christ (which is what your ridiculous assertion above implies).

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me." -- John 17:23.

"Ye shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." -- John 14:20

Mankind was created to live on God's created earth, in a created body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die and live forever in heaven", and contrary to your invented false doctrine regarding this, the New Testament teaches that the bodies of those who are born of the (eternal) Spirit of God will be quickened (made alive) by the same eternal Spirit together with Christ's quickening,

and hence those who are born of the (eternal) Spirit of God will be bodily raised from the dead together with and through (i.e by) Christ's bodily resurrection from the dead.

Romans 8:10-11:

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken your mortal bodies [zōopoiéō] through his Spirit who lives in you.".

zōopoiéō: God’s (eternal) Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

It does not constitute the "resurrection" of the human spirit from the dead but the birth of the human spirit by the (eternal) Spirit of God, and the resurrection of the human body from the dead.

And there is nothing "figurative" about the human spirit being spiritually alive in Christ through the indwelling of His Spirit, once it (the human spirit) has been born of the eternal Spirit of God.
​

Your above false assertion seeks to make us Christ's own resurrected body or implies that it is speaking "figuratively" of us as Christ's own resurrected body even though the scripture is telling us plainly that it is His eternal Spirit dwelling in those who have been born of His Spirit.

And the only spiritual human body that the New Testament speaks about is the resurrected human body that had died:

1 Corinthians 15:44:
-- It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. --

The word psychikós is from the word psychḗ (soul / life / mind).
The word pneumatikós is from the word pneûma (spirit / breath).​

Would it be less confusing and controversial if we considered the term "soul", as being the innermost part of a person ?

i.e. our souls, our real self, can be detached from our current physical body upon death. But the soul in the spiritual realm can have a ghost like body. For example, Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Let us think in terms of "redemption" from the penalty of sin.

Redemption of the soul:

When we are "saved" by believing upon Jesus, His death and resurrection, it is then our souls are redeemed. And in our redeemed souls, the Holy Spirit abides with us, forever. i.e. born again, as all Christians are.

Redemption of the body:

And what we are looking forward to now is the redemption of our bodies - either by resurrection or translation (if alive at the time).

 

[Zao is life]

LOL. Okay, we're done, buddy. I can't reason with someone who takes such a hyperliteral approach to interpreting scripture and can't recognize that we have spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection by way of being spiritually saved which Paul likens to going from being dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ because of His bodily resurrection making that possible. And I'm not calling going from being spiritually dead in sins to being spiritually alive in Christ a resurrection, either. Everything you said after this was based on that false assumption. You obviously don't even understand what I believe, so forget it. This is a waste of time.

Meaning of course that you can't answer because in order to get out of your corner you now have to make a yet even more bizarre and false statement than the referenced verses being "figuratively" talking about us being alive in Christ as your post implied.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Meaning of course that you can't answer because in order to get out of your corner you now have to make a yet even more bizarre and false statement than the referenced verses being "figuratively" talking about us being alive in Christ as your post implied.

LOL. You are a fool. I have answered and you just respond with nonsense. Don't try to hold it against me for not wanting to waste any more time talking to someone who doesn't pay any attention to what I'm actually saying and misrepresents everything I say.

 

[Zao is life]

Would it be less confusing and controversial if we considered the term "soul", as being the innermost part of a person ?

i.e. our souls, our real self, can be detached from our current physical body upon death. But the soul in the spiritual realm can have a ghost like body. For example, Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Redemption of the soul:

When we are "saved" by believing upon Jesus, His death and resurrection, it is then our souls are redeemed. And in our redeemed souls, the Holy Spirit abides with us, forever. i.e. born again, as all Christians are.

Redemption of the body:

And what we are looking forward to now is the redemption of our bodies - either by resurrection or translation (if alive at the time).

It's difficult because:

1. The New Testament uses the word psyche (soul) interchangeably in reference to the soul, the mind and the life of individuals.

2. Both the Old and the New Testament spoke about it being prophesied that Jesus' soul (nephesh/psyche) would not be left in hades. But Jesus preached by the eternal Spirit (pneuma) to the spirits (pneuma) in prison.

We are body (soma), soul (psyche) and spirit (pneuma) - but the word pneuma is also used interchangeably in the New Testament in reference to the soul and the spirit.

We are born into this world with a body and soul. We know that.

Everyone seems to assume that when Adam was created, the words "living soul" implies that he only became a soul when the eternal Spirit of God breathed eternal life into him.

But because of the way it's written, I believe personally that Adam was first created body and soul, then God breathed eternal life into him and the emphasis is on the word living in living soul - because this is how it is written:

In the beginning God (Spirit) created. -- Genesis 1:1.

(He created something other than Spirit - He created the natural universe and earth, and all that exists in it, including humans). -- Genesis 1:1; Genesis 1:26-27; Genesis 2:7:-

Created:
"God created [bara] humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them."

Formed:
"When YHVH God created man, He formed [yatsar] man of the dust of the ground, .."

Breathed (Spirit of God):
".. and breathed (naphach) into his nostrils the breath (nshamah) of life (chay); .. "

"The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice,
but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes;
so is everyone who is born [γεννάω gennáō] of the Spirit."
-- John 3:8.​

gennáō: to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring. [Strongs Greek 01080]

Became (hayah:):
".. and man became [hayah] a living (chay) soul (nephesh)."
-- Genesis 1:27; 2:7.

hayah: to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use. [Srong's Hebrew 1961]

The created human who was formed from the dust of the earth became a living (chay) soul (nephesh) when the Spirit of God breathed the breath (Spirit of God) of (everlasting) life into him:

"That which is born [gennáō] of the flesh is flesh,
and that which is born [gennáō] of the Spirit is spirit."
-- John 3:6.​

 

[Zao is life]

LOL. You are a fool. I have answered and you just respond with nonsense. Don't try to hold it against me for not wanting to waste any more time talking to someone who doesn't pay any attention to what I'm actually saying and misrepresents everything I say.

It's you who responds with nonsense. Statements that are not even scriptural like "referring figuratively to life in Christ" implying that our life in Christ through His eternal Spirit indwelling the one who has been born of the eternal Spirit of God, is figurative, and then you expect to have a response that treats such nonsense as worthy of discussion.

You said goodbye. So why don't you finish with goodbye?

PS You have called your brother a fool. There is a scripture about that. You asked @marks if he was a child.

You seem to have an issue with self-control born in pride.

 

[rwb]

I think that those having the Holy Spirit presence within their soul, will never die, albeit the natural bodies of men has being appointed to die.

I think when it speaks of the spirit of life, it is referring to a created beings like humans, animals, fish, and the like - when those created beings die, it is the spirit of life of that enabled that created being to have life, returning to God - Who gives all life.

Would you agree with that ?

The spirit within every living breathing creature upon the earth gives our natural/physical body physical life. When man is born again of the Holy Spirit of Christ, the spirit of that man will NEVER die. Though our natural body will die, the spirit as living soul shall live forever through His Spirit within. (Jo 14:16) Therefore, the spirit of man indwelt with the life-giving Spirit returns to God as spiritual body of believers when our natural body dies. That's what Paul writes in 1Cor 15:44 where he says man of faith after death are sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. John writes of this truth when sees living souls in heaven of saints who have physically died (Rev 20). Our body of flesh will not be resurrected after death until the last trumpet sounds. (1Cor 15:50-53)

 

[Douggg]

It's difficult because:

1. The New Testament uses the word psyche in reference to the soul, the mind and the life of individuals.

2. Both the Old and the New Testament spoke about it being prophesied that Jesus' soul (nephesh/psyche) would not be left in hades. But Jesus preached by the eternal Spirit (pneuma) to the spirits (pneuma) in prison.

We are body (soma), soul (psyche) and spirit (pneuma) - but the word pneuma is also used interchangeably in the New Testament in reference to the soul and the spirit.

We are born into this world with a body and soul. We know that.

Everyone seems to assume that when Adam was created, the words "living soul" implies that he only became a soul when the eternal Spirit of God breathed eternal life into him.

But because of the way it's written, I believe personally that Adam was first created body and soul, then God breathed eternal life into him and the emphasis is on the word living in living soul - because this is how it is written:

In the beginning God (Spirit) created. -- Genesis 1:1.

(He created something other than Spirit - He created the natural universe and earth, and all that exists in it, including humans). -- Genesis 1:1; Genesis 1:26-27; Genesis 2:7:-

Created:
"God created [bara] humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them."

Formed:
"When YHVH God created man, He formed [yatsar] man of the dust of the ground, .."

Breathed (Spirit of God):
".. and breathed (naphach) into his nostrils the breath (nshamah) of life (chay); .. "

"The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice,
but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes;
so is everyone who is born [γεννάω gennáō] of the Spirit."
-- John 3:8.​

gennáō: to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring. [Strongs Greek 01080]

Became (hayah:):
".. and man became [hayah] a living (chay) soul (nephesh)."
-- Genesis 1:27; 2:7.

hayah: to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use. [Srong's Hebrew 1961]

The created human who was formed from the dust of the earth became a living (chay) soul (nephesh) when the Spirit of God breathed the breath (Spirit of God) of (everlasting) life into him:

"That which is born [gennáō] of the flesh is flesh,
and that which is born [gennáō] of the Spirit is spirit."
-- John 3:6.​

What if we look at it like this...

God created man (Adam) by first forming a body from the dust of the earth. And then breathing life into that body, such that Adam became a living soul - i.e. having a body and inner spirit (i.e. soul).

Then man (Adam) sinned, and became subject to the penalty of sin - eternal death to the body and soul.

Then Jesus came to redeem man from the penalty of sin.
redemption of the soul - saved, born again spiritually, by the Holy Spirit residing in one's soul.
redemption of the body - by resurrection, or translation (if alive at the time) - a new everlasting, eternal body.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's you who responds with nonsense. Statements that are not even scriptural like "referring figuratively to life in Christ" implying that our life in Christ through His eternal Spirit indwelling the one who has been born of the eternal Spirit of God, is figurative, and then you expect to have a response that treats such nonsense as worthy of discussion.

You said goodbye. So why don't you finish with goodbye?

I didn't say goodbye. I will soon.

PS You have called your brother a fool. There is a scripture about that. You asked @marks if he was a child.

As always, you take things out of context. I'm saying you are a fool in how you are talking about the topic at hand. You are being foolish about it. There, is that better to say it that way?

You seem to have an issue with self-control born in pride.

Look in the mirror to see who is the prideful one here who won't acknowledge what Paul is actually saying in Ephesians 2:4-6. And it's nothing except for pride when you continue to try to tell me what I believe even after I explain what I believe, such as you trying to tell me I'm saying Paul was talking about a spiritual resurrection in Ephesians 2:4-6 which is NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying we spiritually have part in Christ's bodily resurrection by going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ. I am not calling the process of going from being dead in sins to alive in Christ a resurrection itself. You won't even accept that and keep trying to tell me what I believe which is prideful and foolish of you to do.

Goodbye.

 

[marks]

Sorry, I just got a little lazy and assumed you would understand it was for the OP.

Given that you said "OP said" . . . that was pretty clear to me!

Much love!

 

[rwb]

Would it be less confusing and controversial if we considered the term "soul", as being the innermost part of a person ?

i.e. our souls, our real self, can be detached from our current physical body upon death. But the soul in the spiritual realm can have a ghost like body. For example, Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Let us think in terms of "redemption" from the penalty of sin.

Redemption of the soul:

When we are "saved" by believing upon Jesus, His death and resurrection, it is then our souls are redeemed. And in our redeemed souls, the Holy Spirit abides with us, forever. i.e. born again, as all Christians are.

Redemption of the body:

And what we are looking forward to now is the redemption of our bodies - either by resurrection or translation (if alive at the time).

I believe Scripture tells us that where there is life there is a living soul. Every living breathing creature is a living soul as long as life exists in some form. When man obtains eternal life through Christ, the part of man that was made eternal is not natural/physical man, but is our spirit, supernaturally made alive forever. Since faithful saints are the living body of Christ physically while alive on this earth, our spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit after physical death goes from being the physical body of Christ on earth to being the spiritual body of Christ in heaven. Still a living soul because where there is life there is a soul. Our physical body becomes a corpse and the faithful will not be a complete living soul again until reunited with our resurrected immortal body of flesh that shall be when Christ come again.

 

[marks]

What a load of trash. What a load of invented theological rubbish concocted in the minds of men. It's laughable. - and not surprising coming from someone who needs to hold onto a premise which consists of false doctrine in order to hold onto another false doctrine.

That idea is put to rest in this passage, among others,

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Given that you said "OP said" . . . that was pretty clear to me!

Much love!

I was talking about when he said this without quoting anyone:

You are right, the Lord establishes truth, before He makes war.

However, you must ask to share in that truth, before you can be made ready for war (whether it is for Armageddon, or another).

Where did he say "OP said" here? He did not indicate who he was talking to.

 

[marks]

I think that those having the Holy Spirit presence within their soul, will never die, albeit the natural bodies of men has being appointed to die.

I think when it speaks of the spirit of life, it is referring to a created beings like humans, animals, fish, and the like - when those created beings die, it is the spirit of life of that enabled that created being to have life, returning to God - Who gives all life.

Would you agree with that ?

I agree with that, if we are saying there is something like a "life force", the breath of God, that is different from the psuche, which is the soul of the man (not spirit, but soul).

Much love!