The battle of Gog and Magog does not happen until after the thousand year reign of Christ

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
11,069
4,578
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Copy @Stewardofthemystery

It's the common fallacy of all Amillennialists to believe that being born (gennao) of the Spirit constitutes a "resurrection" of the human spirit of an individual - the spirit "that was dead".

There is a long list of verses in the New Testament that speak of "resurrection" using one of four Greek words meaning rising again from death. Not one of those verses is talking about the so-called "resurrection from the dead" of the human spirit. Each one of them is talking about the rising again from death of the human body.

When did the individual's spirit die so that it could rise again from death?

The individual's human spirit did not die prior to the time when the Spirit, who breathes where He desires, breathed (eternal) life into the individual when he or she was born of the Spirit. Life does not come before birth in the case of created humans.

"The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. The first man, Adam, became a living person; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." -- 1 Corinthians 15:47, 45; 20-22.

Romans 8:10-11:

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.".

zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.

Paul does not contradict himself, but says exactly the same thing again in his letter to the Ephesians:

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō

A standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death.

Without exception, in each and every verse or passage in the New Testament where the above words are used, they are talking about, and referring to, the resurrection of the body (the body that died, which is the seed of the spiritual, but tangible, body that we have the assurance of, will be raised.

The reason why paul could say that we are seated together with Christ in the heavenly places is because the word synegeírō (raised with Christ) is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit.

Our human spirit is quickened by the Spirit of Christ and through the quickening of the Spirit of Christ when we are BORN of the Spirit.

syzōopoiéō: Used in reference to being quickened, i.e made alive again together with Christ by the Spirit of Christ.

synegeírō: Refers to being raised up together with Christ (see below the table).

I can dig out all the verses Amillennialists use to falsely assert that being born of the Spirit is the same as "resurrection" of the dead human spirit.

It remains a false theology which Amillnenniasts must (and therefore will) adhere to in order to maintain the false premise - the foundation of sand - needed for their Amillnnialist sandcastle which they have erected on the sea's side of the high tide mark.

But this is enough for now because experience has taught me that regardless of what the very scriptures that you think talk about a "resurrection" of the human spirit ACTUALLY say, you will merely keep giving them the false Amillennialist interpretations needed to keep the false theology afloat.​
Ah, I figured out who you are now. You used to call yourself "Fullness of the Gentiles". You made this same argument several times back then. I wondered why you said at one point that you had told me something before when I didn't even remember ever talking to you before about that particular topic.

If you recall, I and some other Amils, have a bit different understanding of the first resurrection as we believe it refers specifically to Christ's bodily resurrection. Scripture teaches that His resurrection was the first bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

And, of course, we all spiritually have part in His resurrection.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
11,069
4,578
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The physical descendants of Jacob/Israel? Is that who you mean?

Surely you must know! I can't believe you don't know what I'm talking about. Let's not be coy.

On second thought . . . never mind. I didn't enter this thread to address you, actually. The fact is that you "spiritualize away" the passages which refute your view, disbelieving what they in reality say. So this isn't going to get far. It's already a non-starter.

Much love!
Are you a child? Just tell me what you're talking about. You think very differently than me, so I'd rather not guess. The only kingdom that I'm aware of that people will inherit in the future is the kingdom of God and you falsely have mortal people inheriting it even though Paul said that mortal "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". So, why do you have mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God?

I don't spiritualize away anything. That is a lie. Why do you act as if spiritual things don't exist? Are you in the kingdom of God spiritually right now or do you not believe in any spiritual things?

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

It's typical of people like you who are unable to defend their doctrine to just run away like this when their doctrine is challenged.
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,899
1,438
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Ah, I figured out who you are now. You used to call yourself "Fullness of the Gentiles". You made this same argument several times back then. I wondered why you said at one point that you had told me something before when I didn't even remember ever talking to you before about that particular topic.

If you recall, I and some other Amils, have a bit different understanding of the first resurrection as we believe it refers specifically to Christ's bodily resurrection. Scripture teaches that His resurrection was the first bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

And, of course, we all spiritually have part in His resurrection.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Being quickened with Christ through the Spirit of Christ results in life being given to our mortal bodies so that we will be bodily raised with His bodily resurrection.

You have quickening resulting in a resurrection of the human spirit that was BORN of the Spirit of God and apparently died - instead of quickening with Christ resulting in bodily resurrection. He was quickened by the Spirit and He was BODILY raised. We are quickened with Him and therefore through the Spirit we are IN HIM we are bodily raised with Him so that we are seated WITH HIM in heavenly places and we will be bodily raised with His bodily resurrection.

The resurrection of the body is the only resurrection the New Testament knows about.
 
Last edited:

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,899
1,438
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Are you a child? Just tell me what you're talking about. You think very differently than me, so I'd rather not guess. The only kingdom that I'm aware of that people will inherit in the future is the kingdom of God and you falsely have mortal people inheriting it even though Paul said that mortal "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". So, why do you have mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God?

I don't spiritualize away anything. That is a lie. Why do you act as if spiritual things don't exist? Are you in the kingdom of God spiritually right now or do you not believe in any spiritual things?

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

It's typical of people like you who are unable to defend their doctrine to just run away like this when their doctrine is challenged.
Why do you even bother talking to someone when you start with "Are you a child"?

The only one who displays the fact that he is a child is the one who starts a sentence with words like that.

I did not bother reading anything else you said to @marks after that. You should bow out if you cannot control yourself like the adults in the room.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ewq1938 and marks

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
11,069
4,578
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Being quickened with Christ through the Spirit of Christ results in life being given to our mortal bodies so that we will be bodily raised with His bodily resurrection.

You have quickening resulting in a resurrection of the human spirit that was BORN of the Spirit of God and apparently died - instead of quickening with Christ resulting in bodily resurrection.
I don't know what you're talking about. Can you please read what I actually say instead of making assumptions?

My point was that we spiritually have part in Christ's resurrection when we're saved as indicated in passages like Colossians 2:12-13, Romans 6:1-4 and Ephesians 2:4-6. We spiritually have part in it in the sense of being "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God". Are you denying that we spiritually have part in His resurrection by way of being buried in baptism and risen spiritually with Him through faith when we become saved and made spiritually alive after formerly being dead in our sins?
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
11,069
4,578
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why do you even bother talking to someone when you start with "Are you a child"?
I was asking him what kingdom he was talking about and he said "Surely you must know! I can't believe you don't know what I'm talking about. Let's not be coy.". He was trying to play games like a child and I'm not interested in that.

The only one who displays the fact that he is a child is the one who starts a sentence with words like that.

I did not bother reading anything else you said to @marks after that. You should bow out if you cannot control yourself like the adults in the room.
I could not care less if you read what I say or talk to me. He was the one acting like a child by not answering a straightforward question with a straightforward answer. You're free to run along like a child, too, if you want. That's what people do when they can't defend their doctrines.
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,899
1,438
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
and risen spiritually with Him through faith when we become saved and made spiritually alive
There are no scriptures telling us that Jesus was risen spiritually or "made spiritually alive again" so that we "are made spiritually alive again".

His own Spirit gave Him life - God raised him from the dead bodily and He rose from the dead by His own power and the Spirit of God/Christ quickened Him so that His mortal body that had died was given life again and now He is alive forevermore.

The scriptures teach us that when we are BORN of His Spirit the same Spirit quickens us with the same quickening He was quickened with and as a result our mortal bodies are given life and will be raised from the dead with His bodily resurrection.

It's not the human spirit being "raised from the dead" through the quickening of the Spirit when we are BORN of the Spirit - it's the mortal body being quickened with the same quickening that Christ was quickened with so that it will be raised from the dead with the same resurrection that Christ rose with.

You have added a false theology to scripture: the "resurrection" of the human spirit "that was dead".

Christ's Spirit did not die. His body died.
 
Last edited:

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,899
1,438
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
I was asking him what kingdom he was talking about and he said "Surely you must know! I can't believe you don't know what I'm talking about. Let's not be coy.". He was trying to play games like a child and I'm not interested in that.


I could not care less if you read what I say or talk to me. He was the one acting like a child by not answering a straightforward question with a straightforward answer. You're free to run along like a child, too, if you want. That's what people do when they can't defend their doctrines.
You don't need to be defending your doctrines to start that nonsense. You just start it. So I'm glad you see what you look like when your mirror makes the above sort of statement, lol.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
11,069
4,578
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There are no scriptures telling us that Jesus was risen spiritually or "made spiritually alive again" so that we "are made spiritually alive again".
Are you sure you're actually reading what I'm saying? I never said He was risen spiritually. Not even close. I'm saying WE spiritually have part in His BODILY resurrection when we're saved as this passage talks about:

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Can you see here how Paul identifies us being buried with Christ in baptism and raised with Him through faith which brings us to new spiritual life in Christ after previously being dead in our sins? Just like Paul wrote about here:

Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

So, God making us alive in Christ is directly related to being saved after previously being dead in sins. It is in this way that we spiritually have part in Christ's bodily resurrection because it spiritually mimics what happened to Him bodily. As Paul said, buried with him in baptism, raised with Him through faith, resulting in spiritual salvation and being made spiritually alive with Christ.

The rest of what you said was all based on your misunderstanding of what I said, so there's no point in addressing it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
11,069
4,578
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Or to the actual meaning of any scripture that corrects your false doctrines - like the "resurrection" of the human spirit.
I made no mention of the resurrection of the human spirit. Despite me specifically telling you that my particular view is different than the one you were arguing against, you still try to say that my view is just like theirs. You're not even trying here. You're just making assumptions and not paying attention to what I'm actually saying.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
11,069
4,578
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You don't need to be defending your doctrines to start that nonsense. You just start it. So I'm glad you see what you look like when your mirror makes the above sort of statement, lol.
Okay, buddy. Good to know that you approve of people not answering straightforward questions with straightforward answers while trying to play games instead.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
11,069
4,578
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This ranks up there with "are you a child?"
Your response was childish and that's a fact. Only a child says things like this..

Surely you must know! I can't believe you don't know what I'm talking about. Let's not be coy
I was asking a sincere, straightforward question. It would've been nice to have been given a sincere, straightforward answer like an adult would give.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,746
24,053
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You don't need to be defending your doctrines to start that nonsense. You just start it. So I'm glad you see what you look like when your mirror makes the above sort of statement, lol.
I'm not into the games people play around here. Faux outrage, faux shock, Why, what kingdom could you possibly be talking about? What kingdom do you think? Games people play . . .

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
4,419
5,874
113
67
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
OK, I thought as much. Those who consider the church to be Isreal will of necessity have a very different interpretation of the prophecies from those who do not.

Much love!
That's bible, marks.

1Co 10:18

Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?


Why did Paul use that term for the nation of Israel? Because it was necessary to distinguish it from the Israel of God, the church (Israel after the spirit).


Gal 6:15-16

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


Rom 9:6-8

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
4,419
5,874
113
67
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
There was no kingdom restored to Israel in 1948. It's a mistake to interpret Acts 1:6-7 in isolation from Acts 1:8. The disciples still had some things to learn at that point so they were expecting an earthly kingdom in Israel, but Jesus made it clear in verse 8 that the kingdom would come spiritually and He referenced the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came in power upon the Jews and 3,000 of them were added to the kingdom of God that day.
Yes the kingdom of God would come spiritually. But I believe because the nation of Israel had lost her sovereignty (and soon even the Land itself) the disciples were expecting that she would be restored as a sovereign self-governing nation at some point....but that is not the kingdom of heaven, just Israel after the flesh. I believe some of those prophecies are speaking to the church of the kingdom of God as well as on another level speaking to Israel after the flesh about the nation of Israel. God raises and lowers kingdoms as He wills, for His purposes...and Israel is no exception to this. But that is an earthly concern, entirely separate from the kingdom of God. Geo-political things are God's business, not the business of the church, which Jesus basically intimated in His answer to the disciples when He told them to just get on with the gospel and never mind the kingdom of Israel (the nation), as I understand it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,746
24,053
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gal 6:15-16

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


Rom 9:6-8

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Israel according to the flesh is the physical descendants of Jacob, and the Israel of God is the Christian physical descendants of Jacob.

Acts 2:30 KJV
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Romans 1:3 KJV
3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Romans 9:3-5 KJV
3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

"after the flesh", "according to flesh", these are Paul's way of speaking of the physical lineage.

Romans 9 gives a delineation of who is Israel, the children of Abraham, but not all, only the children of Isaac, but not all, only the children of Jacob, but not all, only those who believe. This is the Spiritual Israel.

Israelite Christians no longer participated in the sacrifices.

Much love!