Naw. The 12 tribes of Israel are a particular thing. There is nothing whatsoever in the Bible to tell us that the tribes of Israel are anything other then the families descended from Jacob.
Much love!
The battle of Gog and Magog does not happen until after the thousand year reign of Christ
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Much love!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why did you stop there?
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Jesus told them when they would know the kingdom would be restored and it wouldn't be in the way they would expect. It would occur on the day of Pentecost.
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
But, what kingdom are you talking about? No earthly kingdom is mentioned there. Are you talking about the kingdom of God that Paul said we will inherit (1 Corinthians 15:50)?
No, I'm talking about the kingdom God promised to Israel. You do know He keeps His promises, right?
Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Why do you think God would cast away Israel since He promised He would not?
Spiritual Israelite? No such thing, unless you are born from the line of Jacob/Israel. Then you are an Israelite. And if you are a Christian, you are a Spiritual Israelite. If you were not born from the line of Jacob/Israel, you are not any kind of Israelite. That's the way genetics and family lines work.
Much love!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
There was no kingdom restored to Israel in 1948. It's a mistake to interpret Acts 1:6-7 in isolation from Acts 1:8. The disciples still had some things to learn at that point so they were expecting an earthly kingdom in Israel, but Jesus made it clear in verse 8 that the kingdom would come spiritually and He referenced the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came in power upon the Jews and 3,000 of them were added to the kingdom of God that day.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, it sure is. Why is your thinking so carnal? Do you not think that Jesus had a better understanding of the kingdom of God than the disciples did at that point? He sure did.
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Do you deny that Jew and Gentile believers are in the kingdom of God right now?
Of course Jesus knew about the kingdom He promised to Israel, that's why He didn't disavow them of the idea. Here was the golden opportunity. Did He patiently explain how the kingdom wasn't a literal kingdom like they were thinking? No He did not. Instead, He told them the the time for the promised kingdom was with the Father.
Much love!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He sure does. Dumb question to ask a Christian.
When did I say he did? I never said that. Stop misrepresenting my view. He never cast them away as Paul made clear.
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
You were saying?
You have no idea of what you're talking about. Have you never read these passages:
Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
Galatians 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ....Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Are you talking about some kingdom other than the kingdom of God? If so, where is such a kingdom written about in scripture?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
This is not a promise given to Gentiles, as though God, having promised that Israel would remain a nation before Him for ever, then reneged, "Ha! I didn't really mean you, I meant them!"
That's no way to treat God's word.
Much love!
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
This is not a promise given to Gentiles, as though God, having promised that Israel would remain a nation before Him for ever, then reneged, "Ha! I didn't really mean you, I meant them!"
That's no way to treat God's word.
Much love!
Do you not know about God's many promises to Israel, to regather them to their land, that God would live with them, that they'd be the head of the nations, on and on the prophecies go. You must be familiar with them. Aren't you?
But then of course you are! You just happen to think that though He gave them to these people, that He's actually going to fulfill them to those people. But that's not God. He's true.
Just like when He promised you eternal life, He's not going to then say, Oh, actually, I meant them, not you. Aren't you glad for that?
Much love!
I was saying that God has promised a kingdom to Israel, and He will keep His promises. Not a single Scripture you've posted abrogates His Word.
Much love!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Sure, I am. Are you aware that Gentile believers are fellow heirs of God's promises with Israelite believers?
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 yHow that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Whatever you think God promised for Israel, don't forget that Gentiles are "fellowheirs". You call it "their land", but Paul calls it the Gentiles' land, also.
Yeah, buddy!
I think what now? Can you clarify whatever it is you said here?
What in the world are you even talking about here? Please try to speak plainly.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
When I asked "You were saying?" that was in response to you saying "Why do you think God would cast away Israel since He promised He would not?" when I never said that and I showed how God did not cast away Israel by referring to Romans 11:1-5.
What kingdom is this that you're talking about exactly? Since it's a kingdom that God promised, I assume you're talking about the kingdom of God?
Hi Lizbeth,
The thousand year reign of Christ in Revelation is after Jesus physically returns to this earth and is physically present here on earth during the thousand year reign.
In Zechariah 14:4, is Jesus physically returned, to stand on the Mt. of Olives, splitting it in half.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Copy @Stewardofthemystery
It's the common fallacy of all Amillennialists to believe that being born (gennao) of the Spirit constitutes a "resurrection" of the human spirit of an individual - the spirit "that was dead".
There is a long list of verses in the New Testament that speak of "resurrection" using one of four Greek words meaning rising again from death. Not one of those verses is talking about the so-called "resurrection from the dead" of the human spirit. Each one of them is talking about the rising again from death of the human body.
When did the individual's spirit die so that it could rise again from death?
The individual's human spirit did not die prior to the time when the Spirit, who breathes where He desires, breathed (eternal) life into the individual when he or she was born of the Spirit. Spiritual life does not come before spiritual birth in the case of created humans.
"The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. The first man, Adam, became a living person; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." -- 1 Corinthians 15:47, 45; 20-22.
Romans 8:10-11:
"If Christ's Spirit is in you,
(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.
(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.".
zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.
The one who raised Christ from the dead will quicken your MORTAL BODIES if His Spirit dwells in you.
Paul does not contradict himself, but says exactly the same thing again in his letter to the Ephesians:
"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,
(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)
and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).
"RAISED US UP TOGETHER" REFERS TO THE RESURRECTION OF THE MORTAL BODY:
anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō
A standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death.
Without exception, in each and every verse or passage in the New Testament where the above words are used, they are talking about, and referring to, the resurrection of the body (the body that died, which is the seed of the spiritual, but tangible, body that we have the assurance of, will be raised).
The reason why Paul could say that we are seated together with Christ in the heavenly places is because the word synegeírō (raised with Christ) is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit.
Our human spirit is quickened by the Spirit of Christ and through the quickening of the Spirit of Christ when we are BORN of the Spirit.
syzōopoiéō: Used in reference to being quickened, i.e made alive again together with Christ by the Spirit of Christ.
synegeírō: Refers to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection.
I can dig out all the verses Amillennialists use to falsely assert that being born of the Spirit is the same as "resurrection" of the "dead human spirit".
It remains a false theology which Amillnenniasts must (and therefore will) adhere to in order to maintain the false premise - the foundation of sand - needed for their Amillnnialist sandcastle which they have erected on the sea's side of the high tide mark.
But this is enough for now because experience has taught me that regardless of what the very scriptures that you think talk about a "resurrection" of the human spirit ACTUALLY say, you will merely keep giving them the false Amillennialist interpretations needed to keep the false theology afloat.
It's the common fallacy of all Amillennialists to believe that being born (gennao) of the Spirit constitutes a "resurrection" of the human spirit of an individual - the spirit "that was dead".
There is a long list of verses in the New Testament that speak of "resurrection" using one of four Greek words meaning rising again from death. Not one of those verses is talking about the so-called "resurrection from the dead" of the human spirit. Each one of them is talking about the rising again from death of the human body.
When did the individual's spirit die so that it could rise again from death?
The individual's human spirit did not die prior to the time when the Spirit, who breathes where He desires, breathed (eternal) life into the individual when he or she was born of the Spirit. Spiritual life does not come before spiritual birth in the case of created humans.
"The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. The first man, Adam, became a living person; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." -- 1 Corinthians 15:47, 45; 20-22.
Romans 8:10-11:
"If Christ's Spirit is in you,
(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.
(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.".
zōopoiéō: God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life.
The one who raised Christ from the dead will quicken your MORTAL BODIES if His Spirit dwells in you.
Paul does not contradict himself, but says exactly the same thing again in his letter to the Ephesians:
"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,
(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)
and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).
"RAISED US UP TOGETHER" REFERS TO THE RESURRECTION OF THE MORTAL BODY:
anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō
A standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death.
Without exception, in each and every verse or passage in the New Testament where the above words are used, they are talking about, and referring to, the resurrection of the body (the body that died, which is the seed of the spiritual, but tangible, body that we have the assurance of, will be raised).
The reason why Paul could say that we are seated together with Christ in the heavenly places is because the word synegeírō (raised with Christ) is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit.
Our human spirit is quickened by the Spirit of Christ and through the quickening of the Spirit of Christ when we are BORN of the Spirit.
syzōopoiéō: Used in reference to being quickened, i.e made alive again together with Christ by the Spirit of Christ.
synegeírō: Refers to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection.
I can dig out all the verses Amillennialists use to falsely assert that being born of the Spirit is the same as "resurrection" of the "dead human spirit".
It remains a false theology which Amillnenniasts must (and therefore will) adhere to in order to maintain the false premise - the foundation of sand - needed for their Amillnnialist sandcastle which they have erected on the sea's side of the high tide mark.
But this is enough for now because experience has taught me that regardless of what the very scriptures that you think talk about a "resurrection" of the human spirit ACTUALLY say, you will merely keep giving them the false Amillennialist interpretations needed to keep the false theology afloat.
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Lizbeth, I made this table of all the end times times frames given in bible - that may be helpful to you. Their placement is to fit within the forthcoming 7 years that immediately precede Jesus's return day.
Christ began to reign over the Kingdom given Him when He ascended to heaven after His resurrection. I agree the final gathering of Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristian) to make war against Christ and His saints shall not be until this time, symbolized a thousand years are finished. That will be when the last trumpet sounds. Then Satan will be loosed to come against Christians one last time, and fire will come down from God out of heaven to devour them all.
Christ's disciples were witnesses of Christ ascending to heaven after He resurrected from the dead.
Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
We find confirmation that Christ ascended to heaven and there was given Him dominion, and a Kingdom that all people, nations and languages should serve Him. This is exactly what began to come to pass as the Gospel of Christ was sent unto all the nations of the world, and whosoever believed in Christ, from the moment we are born again, have entered into the Kingdom of God that is now in heaven, through His Spirit within. This is the spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ is now reigning over. The Kingdom of God is not a physical kingdom, because His Kingdom, that He reigns over now is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. That's why only those who have been born again shall both know and enter the Kingdom of God. (Joh 3)
Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Christ will continue to reign from the Kingdom of God in heaven until time given this earth to build the spiritual Kingdom of God shall be no longer. John symbolizes this time as a/the thousand years, and writes that when this time is fulfilled, Satan shall be loosed for a little season. We read in Rev 10 that this time given the church on earth for building the Kingdom of God shall be no longer when the seventh trumpet begins to sound.
Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Those who enter the spiritual Kingdom of God through Christ's Spirit have everlasting life, John writes of the vision he was given of saints as living souls, spiritually alive in heaven after physical death. They are the spiritual body of Christ in heaven after physical death because during this time symbolized a thousand years, they lived and reigned with Christ. It is because they kept the faith unto death that death could not hold them, so as Paul writes in 1Cor 15 "they were sown a natural body but raised a spiritual body."
Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Revelation 20:3 (KJV) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Revelation 20:7-8 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9a (KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 20:9b (KJV) and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
When the last trumpet begins to sound this time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God, symbolized a thousand years shall be no longer. Then Satan will be set free to gather together his vast army of evil to make war one last time with Christians still alive upon this earth. But instead of the battle planned, Christ shall return with His spiritual body of saints, and the saints still alive at that time shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Saints that had died will be resurrected immortal & incorruptible, those still alive shall also be changed and raised up. Then fire of God from heaven shall come down to devour every living thing upon the earth, and the earth and all things shall be made new, and the saints with Christ shall come down to a new heaven and new earth forever.
The final part of the vision John writes in Rev 20 is of the devil, the beast and false prophet cast into the LOF, and all of the DEAD resurrected to damnation according to what is found written in the books and the book of life.
The physical descendants of Jacob/Israel? Is that who you mean?
Surely you must know! I can't believe you don't know what I'm talking about. Let's not be coy.
On second thought . . . never mind. I didn't enter this thread to address you, actually. The fact is that you "spiritualize away" the passages which refute your view, disbelieving what they in reality say. So this isn't going to get far. It's already a non-starter.
Much love!
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