Why Antiochus Epiphanes IV Is Not The Little Horn - Part I: "in the latter time of their kingdom"

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Phoneman777

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I see it.
No, you refuse to see the truth.

I've shown you:

>the feminine pronoun "them" in the verse "out of one of them came forth a Little Horn" cannot possibly refer to the masculine noun "horns" but only to the sometimes feminine "winds".

>Antiochus was never "exceeding great" in the South - he was chased out of Egypt by Romans.

>Antiochus arose at the middle of the 260 year Seleucid kingdom - the Little Horn arises in the "latter time".

>Antiochus did not wax "exceeding great" over Alex the Great or Darius, Cyrus, or Artaxerxes.

>Antiochus was called "Epimanes" ("mad man") instead of Epiphanes - he's anything but "exceeding great".

>Antiochus never took away the "daily" ("tamid") or the entire Jewish sanctuary service.

>Antiochus' sacrifice suspension for 1260 days (Josephus) or 1090 days (other authorities) is nowhere near 2300 or 1150 days.

Antiochus is not nor will ever be the Little Horn.
 

Phoneman777

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Prophecy tells me the king of Babylon will be smiting Palestinians today and tomorrow.He will continue to smite Palestinians with his rod till the nations rise up and destroy him.Then the Lord comes and establish Zion.
Prophecy says no such thing because this same Isaiah in chapter 13 says Babylon will never be rebuilt and found smiting anyone today!
 

tailgator

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No, you refuse to see the truth.

I've shown you:

>the feminine pronoun "them" in the verse "out of one of them came forth a Little Horn" cannot possibly refer to the masculine noun "horns" but only to the sometimes feminine "winds".

>Antiochus was never "exceeding great" in the South - he was chased out of Egypt by Romans.

>Antiochus arose at the middle of the 260 year Seleucid kingdom - the Little Horn arises in the "latter time".

>Antiochus did not wax "exceeding great" over Alex the Great or Darius, Cyrus, or Artaxerxes.

>Antiochus was called "Epimanes" ("mad man") instead of Epiphanes - he's anything but "exceeding great".

>Antiochus never took away the "daily" ("tamid") or the entire Jewish sanctuary service.

>Antiochus' sacrifice suspension for 1260 days (Josephus) or 1090 days (other authorities) is nowhere near 2300 or 1150 days.

Antiochus is not nor will ever be the Little Horn.
Your mixing me with someone else.
I agree the prophecy is not about antiochus.

Neither is Daniel 11 which is about he United states.
 

tailgator

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Prophecy says no such thing because this same Isaiah in chapter 13 says Babylon will never be rebuilt and found smiting anyone today!
The Babylon Isaiah was writing about has not been destroyed.

The Mess(Iran)has not destroyed Babylon yet.
The day of the Lord in Isaiah 13 has not come yet.

Isaiah 13
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.




The day of the Lord is still future.These things have not been fulfilled.
 

tailgator

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Where does it say the "sacrifice" is taken away?
Daniel 8:12
Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

Daniel 11:31
31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.



This will most likely be fulfilled next year after Trump.is reelected.He will give netanyahu an army to protect Israel and the draft will be abolished.
 

Phoneman777

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Your mixing me with someone else.
I agree the prophecy is not about antiochus.

Neither is Daniel 11 which is about he United states.
Ah, I double clicked a link so it must have included your post. Glad to hear that.
 

Phoneman777

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Daniel 8:12
Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

Daniel 11:31
31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.



This will most likely be fulfilled next year after Trump.is reelected.He will give netanyahu an army to protect Israel and the draft will be abolished.
The KJV translates "70 weeks are determined" but a better rendering of the Hebrew is "chatak" is "cut off".

When we consider that the 70 Weeks is the first thing to drop from Gabriel's lips after telling Daniel to listen up for clarification about the 2300 Days, as well as the fact that Gabriel told Daniel to "understand the matter and consider the mareh ("vision")" which is exclusively used to reference the 2300 Days in chapter 8 - these two points establish an inseparable link between the two prophecies.

Therefore, "70 Weeks are determined ("cut off") from the larger 2300 Days, and since no thinking person argues the 70 are literal weeks, the only thing they can be "cut off" from is 2300 symbolic days or literal years.
 

tailgator

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The KJV translates "70 weeks are determined" but a better rendering of the Hebrew is "chatak" is "cut off".

When we consider that the 70 Weeks is the first thing to drop from Gabriel's lips after telling Daniel to listen up for clarification about the 2300 Days, as well as the fact that Gabriel told Daniel to "understand the matter and consider the mareh ("vision")" which is exclusively used to reference the 2300 Days in chapter 8 - these two points establish an inseparable link between the two prophecies.

Therefore, "70 Weeks are determined ("cut off") from the larger 2300 Days, and since no thinking person argues the 70 are literal weeks, the only thing they can be "cut off" from is 2300 symbolic days or literal years.
I wouldn't know about that.
But I do understand the sacrifice which Israelis make for their king will be abolished after Trump gives Israel an army.
An army much like the US has given Germany or South Korea.

The sacrifice is a hotly debated issue in Israel .There are protests against it.Some are threatening to leave the country while others say they prefer prison.Its in the news all the time.
Some people just don't want to sacrifice their children or themselves.
 

Phoneman777

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I wouldn't know about that.
All you need is a Hebrew lexicon, or just go blueletterbible.org. Yes, "chatak" indeed means "decreed" or "determined" or "apportioned" - but it also means "cut off" and we can't ignore that.

What you guys refuse to do is recognize the LINKS between the 70 and the 2300:

>Gabriel used the 70 to explain the 2300 - the only portion of Daniel 8 that Daniel didn't understand
>Gabriel said "consider the vision ("mareh") which is used exclusively in reference to the 2300 in 8:26-27
>The 70 are "cut off" from the only other prophecy within a mile of the 70 - the 2300
But I do understand the sacrifice which Israelis make for their king will be abolished after Trump gives Israel an army.
An army much like the US has given Germany or South Korea.
The nation of Israel no longer has anything to do with end times prophecy. THEY BLEW IT. Jesus said "the kingdom of God shall be TAKEN from you" and now it belongs to the church, the true "Israel of God" which are those who "walk by this rule" of the "new creature in Christ Jesus".
The sacrifice is a hotly debated issue in Israel .There are protests against it.Some are threatening to leave the country while others say they prefer prison.Its in the news all the time.
Some people just don't want to sacrifice their children or themselves.
Debate all they want, if they ever get a temple built and start offering lambs in official rejection of the Lamb of God, God will esteem it just an elaborate exercise in BBQ futility.

God would no sooner call such a temple the "temple of God" than a man would refer to his saintly mother's house as "the best little whorehouse near your house".
 

tailgator

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All you need is a Hebrew lexicon, or just go blueletterbible.org. Yes, "chatak" indeed means "decreed" or "determined" or "apportioned" - but it also means "cut off" and we can't ignore that.

What you guys refuse to do is recognize the LINKS between the 70 and the 2300:

>Gabriel used the 70 to explain the 2300 - the only portion of Daniel 8 that Daniel didn't understand
>Gabriel said "consider the vision ("mareh") which is used exclusively in reference to the 2300 in 8:26-27
>The 70 are "cut off" from the only other prophecy within a mile of the 70 - the 2300

The nation of Israel no longer has anything to do with end times prophecy. THEY BLEW IT. Jesus said "the kingdom of God shall be TAKEN from you" and now it belongs to the church, the true "Israel of God" which are those who "walk by this rule" of the "new creature in Christ Jesus".

Debate all they want, if they ever get a temple built and start offering lambs in official rejection of the Lamb of God, God will esteem it just an elaborate exercise in BBQ futility.

God would no sooner call such a temple the "temple of God" than a man would refer to his saintly mother's house as "the best little whorehouse near your house".
The kingdom of God will soon be taken from the israeli government and given to the saints.Prabably around 2028.


It takes place in verses in 26-27 below.
Daniel 7

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High,
whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.



Here is revelation 20,you can see the saints reigning with Christ in the kingdom.This takes place after Jesus comes.They recieve the kingdom for an everlasting possession as God promised Abraham.After 1000 years Gog invades the kingdom of Israel and is destroyed by God.


Revelation 20

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.






As of today,the little horn/beast is reigning in that promised land.The saints in Daniel 7:27 and the elation 20:6 have not been given the promised land yet.Again,that takes place when Jesus comes.
 

Phoneman777

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The kingdom of God will soon be taken from the israeli government and given to the saints.Prabably around 2028.


It takes place in verses in 26-27 below.
Daniel 7

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High,
whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.



Here is revelation 20,you can see the saints reigning with Christ in the kingdom.This takes place after Jesus comes.They recieve the kingdom for an everlasting possession as God promised Abraham.After 1000 years Gog invades the kingdom of Israel and is destroyed by God.


Revelation 20

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.






As of today,the little horn/beast is reigning in that promised land.The saints in Daniel 7:27 and the elation 20:6 have not been given the promised land yet.Again,that takes place when Jesus comes.
The parable says the lord comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen who murdered his son and hire new farmers to work his vineyards.

Do you not see that when the 70 Weeks ended and the Gospel went to the Gentiles, the Romans eventually came and leveled the entire city of Jerusalem and scattered Jews to the four winds of the Earth?

The kingdom of God was already taken from them.
 

tailgator

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The parable says the lord comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen who murdered his son and hire new farmers to work his vineyards.

Do you not see that when the 70 Weeks ended and the Gospel went to the Gentiles, the Romans eventually came and leveled the entire city of Jerusalem and scattered Jews to the four winds of the Earth?

The kingdom of God was already taken from them.
Have you not considered the Jews are exactly where they were 2000 years ago?
That deadly wound has been healed.
They are in the kingdom that was promised to the seed of Abraham today.When Christ comes ,those who do not belong to him shall be removed from.his kingdom.

Mathew 13:41-42

The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


No,this was not fulfilled in 70 ad.
 
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Phoneman777

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Have you not considered the Jews are exactly where they were 2000 years ago?
You won't find God gathering them after scattering them without them first repenting. Have they repented?
They call Him "son of a whore" and "the great imposter" - Talmud says "in hell boiling in excrement/semen.
Have the borders of ancient Israel been restored?
It is but a tiny fraction of what it was - is that what you al call "rebirth of Israel"?
Are the people living there Abraham's descendants?
The evidence points to them being descendants of the ancient pagan Khazarian empire.
The true "Israel of God" are they who "walk by this rule" of the "new creature in Christ" and "be Christ's".
Do they walk in that fashion or claim to belong to Christ?
The 70 Weeks prophecy says Jerusalem is destroyed in the 1st century without mention of restoration.
Has Israel been restored to former glory or is it run by Zionists who want world domination?
Does Romans 11 promise "restoration" of Israel as a nation and "God's chosen"?
Their "blindness/jealousy" isn't future - it's already worked to convert many Jews going back to 1st century.
Does Zechariah 14 undermine this entire list?
Prophecy is conditional - ancient Israel failed to meet God's conditions which are always surrender and obedience. The fulfillment of Zechariah 14 is now in Christ and His church.

Can you address each of these above point above?
 

tailgator

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You won't find God gathering them after scattering them without them first repenting. Have they repented?
They call Him "son of a whore" and "the great imposter" - Talmud says "in hell boiling in excrement/semen.
Have the borders of ancient Israel been restored?
It is but a tiny fraction of what it was - is that what you al call "rebirth of Israel"?
Are the people living there Abraham's descendants?
The evidence points to them being descendants of the ancient pagan Khazarian empire.
The true "Israel of God" are they who "walk by this rule" of the "new creature in Christ" and "be Christ's".
Do they walk in that fashion or claim to belong to Christ?
The 70 Weeks prophecy says Jerusalem is destroyed in the 1st century without mention of restoration.
Has Israel been restored to former glory or is it run by Zionists who want world domination?
Does Romans 11 promise "restoration" of Israel as a nation and "God's chosen"?
Their "blindness/jealousy" isn't future - it's already worked to convert many Jews going back to 1st century.
Does Zechariah 14 undermine this entire list?
Prophecy is conditional - ancient Israel failed to meet God's conditions which are always surrender and obedience. The fulfillment of Zechariah 14 is now in Christ and His church.

Can you address each of these above point above?
Yes,there are Jews repenting and believing the gospel.The Jews in Israel who believe in Jesus are called messianic Jews because they believe Christ.

When those messianic Jews are reigning with Christ,are you going to claim they are not followers of Christ?But first the Messianic Jews will be rejected by Jews,They will be imprisoned and murdered for the their testimony of Jesus. Those messianic Jews of don't worship the beast or it's image and do not receive it's mark.

Are you going to condemn those messianic jews who follow Christ?
Are you going to play God and judge them?
 

Phoneman777

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Yes,there are Jews repenting and believing the gospel.The Jews in Israel who believe in Jesus are called messianic Jews because they believe Christ.

When those messianic Jews are reigning with Christ,are you going to claim they are not followers of Christ?But first the Messianic Jews will be rejected by Jews,They will be imprisoned and murdered for the their testimony of Jesus. Those messianic Jews of don't worship the beast or it's image and do not receive it's mark.

Are you going to condemn those messianic jews who follow Christ?
Are you going to play God and judge them?
Messianic Jew Manifesto:

Traditional Judaism claims that the rabbis determine halakkah (way to walk). The New Testament transfers this authority to Yeshua's disciples, and according to Mattiyahu (Matthew) 28:20, to believers in positions of leadership afterwards...Whether the Spirit wants us to obey the rule or to break it will be decided within a communal, congregational framework in which our respected leaders and colleagues help us to determine the mind of Messiah, which 'we' - as a community, not each individual - have."

Messianic Jew Study Bible:

Daniel 9:25-26
"These verse have given rise to much Christian speculation. In the context of the other historical references, however, the anointed leader probably refers to Zerubbabel or the high priest Joshua, while the anointed one is probably the high priest Onias III, killed in 171 BCE. The Prince is Antiochus Epiphanes IV."

This is Jesuit Counter-Reformation theology mixed with Judaism theology and where is Jesus???
 
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Earburner

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Antiochus Epiphanes IV is incorrectly identified as the Little Horn of Daniel 8 by those who simply don't understand eschatology must align with historic evidence. There are several irrefutable facts of history which disqualify him as the Little Horn of Daniel 8.

One reason for abandoning this false belief is that the prophecy specifically says the Little Horn is to arise "in the latter time of their kingdom" - "their kingdom" referring to the four divisional rulers of the one great Greek Empire: Lysimachus, Ptolemy, Cassander, and Seleucid. At the "latter end" of their rulership, the Little Horn is specifically said to arise.

Question: At what point in the Seleucid line of kings did Antiochus Epiphanes IV begin his reign?

Answer: The facts of history show that he was the eighth king in a line of 20+ kings, which makes the time of his reign anything but "in the latter end" of the line of kingly rulership - it was at the midpoint.

There is simply no getting around irrefutable facts and if we're going to be Holy Spirit led students of Bible prophecy at all, we must follow where Providence - not our bigoted ideas - leads us.
Without any doubt whatsoever, Antiochus Epiphanes IV is the only "little horn" that shall ever be.

The Grecian Empire was the 3rd Beast in the vision given to Daniel.
The timeline of that Empire of the Greeks, clearly shows that Antiochus Epiphanes lV rose to power from the Seleucid kingdom, which was one of the "four HEADS", in the latter time of the 3rd beast.
(Dan. 7

[5] And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
[6] After this I beheld, and lo another [a third beast], like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the [third] beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

You can read 1 Maccabees ch.1 to ch. 9
and learn the details of Israel's relationship with Rome, after AE-lV's death.
1 Mac. 8: 1-32 Judas Maccabeus of Israel, learns about the Romans**, and enters into a covenant with them for protection.
[29] According to these articles did the Romans make a covenant with the people of the Jews [for reciprocating and aiding one another, if either one was attacked].

1 Mac. 9[73] Thus the sword ceased from Israel: but Jonathan dwelt at Machmas, and began to govern the people; and he destroyed the ungodly men out of Israel.

**Note: The Romans at that time were only a Republic, and not yet the 4th beast Empire.
 
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Phoneman777

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The timeline of that Empire of the Greeks, clearly shows that Antiochus Epiphanes lV rose to power from the Seleucid kingdom, which was one of the "four HEADS", in the latter time of the 3rd beast.
Antiochus rose to power at the midpoint of the four heads - he was 8th in a series of 20+ Seleucid kings.

What Common Core math formulas are you using to conclude "8th and at the midpoint" is actually the "latter time" of the four heads?
 

Earburner

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Antiochus rose to power at the midpoint of the four heads - he was 8th in a series of 20+ Seleucid kings.

What Common Core math formulas are you using to conclude "8th and at the midpoint" is actually the "latter time" of the four heads?
The focus of description is ON THE 3RD BEAST!! The four Hellenistic kingdoms are from out of the 3rd beast, symbolized as having four heads, which had evolved into four separate governments, immediately AFTER the "notable horn was broken", aka "Alex the Great".

The context of scripture provides the 3rd beast's way of going throughout Daniel.
Dan. 8
The Medio-Persian empire- 2nd beast:
[3] Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns [two armies joined as one empire]: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
[4] I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

The Grecian empire-3rd beast:

[5] And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground:

Alexander the Great of the 3rd beast:
and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
[6] And he [the 3rd] came to the ram [the 2nd] that had two horns, which I had there seen standing before the river, and [the 3rd] ran unto him [the 2nd] in the fury of his power.
[7] And I saw him [the 3rd] come close unto the ram [the 2nd], and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram [the 2nd], and brake his two horns [militaristic kingdoms]: and there was no power in the ram [the 2nd] to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his [the 3rd's] hand.
[8] Therefore the he goat [the 3rd] waxed
very great: and when he was strong, the great horn [Alex the Great] was broken;

The four Hellenistic kingdoms:
and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven [the four compass points- N,W,S,E.].

Israel was attacked:
[9] And out of one of them [the four heads] came forth a Little Horn [Antiochus Epiphanes lV [AE-lV] of the Seleucid kingdom], which waxed [looked for, sought to be] exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [Israel].
[10] And it [the little horn- AE-lV] waxed [looked for, sought to be] great, even to the host of heaven [Israel]; and it cast down some of the host [army of Israel] and of the stars [leaders] to the ground, and stamped upon them.
[11] Yea, he [AE-lV] magnified himself even to the prince of the host [Matthias Maccabeus], and by him [AE-lV] the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
[12] And an host [army] was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth [the 10C Law] to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

[13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How LONG shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give BOTH the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
[14] And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days* [not years]; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. [45 days later, AFTER the 1290 days [1335 days].

*Note: the Hebrew word for "day" in vs. 14 is meaning "evening to evening", being a single 24 hour Jewish day.
 
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tailgator

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Messianic Jew Manifesto:

Traditional Judaism claims that the rabbis determine halakkah (way to walk). The New Testament transfers this authority to Yeshua's disciples, and according to Mattiyahu (Matthew) 28:20, to believers in positions of leadership afterwards...Whether the Spirit wants us to obey the rule or to break it will be decided within a communal, congregational framework in which our respected leaders and colleagues help us to determine the mind of Messiah, which 'we' - as a community, not each individual - have."

Messianic Jew Study Bible:

Daniel 9:25-26
"These verse have given rise to much Christian speculation. In the context of the other historical references, however, the anointed leader probably refers to Zerubbabel or the high priest Joshua, while the anointed one is probably the high priest Onias III, killed in 171 BCE. The Prince is Antiochus Epiphanes IV."

This is Jesuit Counter-Reformation theology mixed with Judaism theology and where is Jesus???
Jesus is messiah