The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[rwb]

That is precisely what John was saying. The water baptism of the repentant believer was for (unto, in order to get) forgiveness of sins.

Then why did John say there is another baptism through Jesus that would come and be mightier than his? If the water has already cleansed them of their sins what is the point of John speaking of being baptized with the Holy Spirit and power?

 

[JBO]

It sounds like you understand? How can water through John's baptism that did not give them the Holy Spirit be unto eternal life or as John writes the way we are born again?

Being born again, i.e., regeneration, was instituted under the new covenant. That was instituted with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection; it was inaugurated at Pentecost. However, forgiveness of sins was not instituted under the new covenant, but was available under the old covenant as well. The indwelling Holy Spirit is a new covenant feature. The Jews received forgiveness of sins but did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit under the old covenant as do all Christians under the new covenant.

 

[brightfame52]

Redeems those He died for from the Prison of Unbelief !2


Again, to be concluded in unbelief as Per Rom 11:32 is to be literally imprisoned:

to confine in or as if in a prison And the only release from it is the the Redemption that is in and through Christ Jesus !

Rom 3:24; Eph 1:7 the word redemption apolytrōsis means:

I.a releasing effected by payment of ransom

A.redemption, deliverance


B.liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

Now understand something, by His Death alone He paid the ransom price to God's Justice that causes an immedite release from #1 The Penalty of sin and #2 the consequences of sin, which one was to be imprisoned into unbelief / disobedience Per Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

32 For God has made all people prisoners of disobedienceGNT

32 For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience ISV

32 For God closed all things together in unbelief [Forsooth God closed together all things in unbelief], that he have mercy on all. WYC

So because His Blood alone paid the Redemptive Price, all for whom the Blood was shed for, must be as a matter of Justice be set free from, liberated fro, released from all the consequences of sin, which unbelief is one of those consequences, hence imprisoned in unbelief because of sin ! So Those Christ died for must be brought out of the Prison house of unbelief as an evidence that God has accepted His Blood as their Redemptive Price to free them from the prison of unbelief ! 31

 

[brightfame52]

You are reading into that passage much more than it actually says. Prisoners of disobedience is speaking about one's relationship to God relative to the law. We know that if one were to disobey even one law once, he becomes that prisoner of disobedience; that is, he becomes a sinner (James 2:10). That says nothing about whether or not he can believe the Gospel message.

A similar statement is found in Galatians 3 where it says that the law was our guardian (ESV) or tutor (NASB) or schoolmaster (KJV) to lead us to Christ.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

That certainly doesn't sound like it was impossible for the sinner under the law to believe in Christ Jesus. That was the purpose of the law according verse 24.

Christ redeems them He died for from unbelief, iniquity and purifies them Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[Johann]

The Atonement of Christ has reconciled the elect world to God. It secured and ensured for it [ the elect world] every spiritual blessing needed to live unto God and for His Glory through Jesus Christ.

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ISAIAH 52:13-15
13Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.
14Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man
And His form more than the sons of men.
15Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand.

52:13 "will prosper" This verb (BDB 968, KB 1328, Hiphil imperfect) has two connotations.

to consider, to give attention to, to ponder ‒ Isa. 41:20; 44:18; Deut. 32:29; Ps. 64:9
to prosper, "to have success" ‒ 1 Sam. 18:15; Isa. 52:13; Jer. 20:11; 23:5
The question is which of these best parallel the series of verbs "high," "lifted," and "greatly exalted." Will the Servant be

listened to
lifted up
Both fit the context of chapters 44-55.

"He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted" The threefold use of these verbs with similar meaning intensifies the idea.

will be high ‒ BDB 926, KB 1202, Qal imperfect, cf. Isa. 6:1; 57:15

will be lifted up ‒ BDB 669, KB 724, Niphal perfect (with waw), cf. Isa. 6:1; 33:10; 57:15

will be greatly exalted ‒ BDB 146, KB 170, Qal perfect (with waw), cf. Isa. 5:16


52:14
NASB, NKJV, LXX   "were astonished at you"
NRSV   "were astonished at him"
NJB   "were aghast at him"
JPSOA   "were appalled at him"
REB   "recoil at the sight of him"
Peshitta   "amazed at him"
NET   "were horrified by the sight of you"

The MT has "you," עליך (also LXX), but "him," עליו is read by the Targums and some Syriac versions. The UBS Text Project, p. 142, gives "you" a B rating, p. 142.

There is a fluidity between the corporate focus ("you") and the individual ("him") in the Servant Songs. The individual ideal Israelite paid the price for corporate Israel (cf. Isa. 53:8) as well as corporate humanity (cf. Gen. 3:15)!

"My people"
This is not in the Masoretic Hebrew text. The Servant is not identified with corporate Israel but an individual, an ideal Israelite (i.e., Messiah.

"His appearance was marred more than any man,

And His form more than the sons of men"

The term "marred" (BDB 1008, KB 644) is found only here. BDB has "disfigurement of face." KB has "ugly in form," from an Arabic root.

The same root consonants are used in Lev. 22:25 for "corruption."

The same root consonanta are used in Ezek. 9:1 for "destruction."

Jesus was beaten very badly, almost unrecognizable, first by the Sanhedrin and then by the Roman soldiers. The rabbis used this verse to say that the Messiah will have leprosy.

52:15
NASB, NKJV   "sprinkle"
NRSV, JPSOA, NET   "startle"
NJB, LXX   "astonished"
Peshitta   "purify"

The MT (NASB) has a sacrificial term (BDB 633 I, KB 683, Hiphil imperfect, cf. Exod. 29:21: Lev. 4:6,17; 5:8; 6:27; 8:11,30; 14:7,16,27,51; 16:14,15,19; Num. 8:7; 19:4,18,19,21). It can also mean "spattered" (cf. Lev. 6:27; 2 Kgs. 9:33; Isa. 63:3). Many modern translations have "startle" (BDB 633 II, "cause to leap"), which comes from an Arabic root. The UBS Text Project, p. 142, gives the MT a "B" rating (some doubt).

The question is "What do the kings hear and see?"

a marred man (Isa. 52:14; 53:5)
a high, lifted up, and greatly exalted man (Isa. 52:13)
Does the verb of Isa. 52:15a mean:

startle with joy
startle with shock
sprinkled as a sacrifice (cf. Isa. 53:4-5,10)

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ISAIAH 53:1-3
1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

53:1 "Who has believed our message" The speaker (plural) is uncertain, but possibly

the faithful Jewish remnant
the prophets
It is obvious that very few understood the concept of a suffering Messiah (cf. John 12:38; Rom. 10:16)! However, one day the kings of the earth will understand (cf. Isa. 52:15 and Phil. 2:6-11)!

For "believed" (BDB 52, KB 63, Hiphil perfect)

"arm of the Lord"
This is an anthropomorphic phrase (cf. Isa. 51:9; 52:9,10; Deut. 5:15) for YHWH's actions, here involving the ministry of the Servant.



53:2 "like a tender shoot" This (BDB 413) refers to His inconspicuous beginnings. It has some connotative relationship with the Messianic term "Branch" (BDB 666, cf. Isa. 4:2; 11:1,10). Both are used together in Isa. 11:1.



"He has no stately form or majesty

That we should look upon Him"

Jesus was not physically unusual or attractive. He did not stand out in a crowd in any way (i.e., He could melt into the crowd, cf. John 8:59; 12:36).

53:3 "He was despised" This verb (BDB 102, KB 117, Niphal participle) is used as a title, "The Despised One" in Isa. 49:7. The Qal passive participle is used in Ps. 22:6, which Christians believe describes Jesus' crucifixion (cf. Matt. 27:35,39,43,46; Mark 15:29,34; Luke 23:34; John 19:24; 20:25).

So many of the texts in this section of Isaiah are used in the NT. Isaiah clearly reveals God's redemptive plan for all humans.

The last two lines of Isa. 53:3 have been interpreted in several ways.

some of the rabbis said the Messiah would have leprosy (cf. Isa. 53:11)

some relate it to 52:14 and see it referring to the beatings Jesus received at the hands of Herod's and Pilate's guards

some relate it to Jesus' words in Matt. 26:31; Mark 14:27 (from Zech. 13:7) or John 16:32

"sorrows" This word (BDB 456) can mean

physical pain ‒ Exod. 3:7
emotional pain ‒ Ps. 38:17-18; Jer. 45:3
It is used in this context (53:13-14) of the Servant suffering on behalf of Israel (cf. Isa. 53:8) and all mankind (cf. Isa. 53:6).

Continue--

 

[JBO]

Christ redeems them He died for from unbelief, iniquity and purifies them Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

It doesn't say there that He redeems anyone from unbelief. It does say that He does redeem us believers from all iniquity, (lawlessness, wrong doing).

 

[Johann]

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ISAIAH 53:4-6
4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

53:4 "griefs" The word literally means "sickness" (BDB 318, cf. Deut. 28:59,61), but is used in a much wider sense in Hebrew (Isa. 1:6; 6:10). This speaks of Jesus' substitutionary work (cf. Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21).

Many have tried to interpret this strophe and Isa. 53:5d as teaching that Jesus' death dealt with believers' sins and sicknesses, but this is to misinterpret the parallelism (cf. Ps. 103:3). "Sickness" is a Hebrew idiom for sin (cf. Isa. 1:5-6; Ps. 103:3). My favorite charismatic author, Gordon Fee, has written a powerful booklet on this issue entitled The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels.



"bore. . .carried" These two verbs are parallel.

bore ‒ BDB 669, KB 724, Qal perfect, used of bearing one's guilt, Gen. 4:13; Lev. 5:1,17; 7:18; Num. 5:31; 14:34; Ezek. 14:10; 44:12, but it is also used of someone or some animal bearing another's guilt, cf. Lev. 10:17; 16:22; Num. 14:33; Ezek. 4:4,5,6 and of the suffering Servant's redemptive ministry in Isa. 53:4

carried ‒ BDB 687, KB 741, Qal perfect; this is literally "bear a heavy load," it is used of the Servant in Isa. 53:4 and Isa. 53:11 (Qal imperfect)
Notice the series of verbs in Isa. 53:4-6 of what YHWH did to the Servant for humanity's benefit.

smitten by God, Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 645, KB 697, Hophal participle

afflicted (by God), Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 776, KB 853, Pual participle

pierced through for our transgressions, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal participle
crushed for our iniquities, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual participle
the chastening for our well being (no verb) upon Him, Isa. 53:5
by His scourging we are healed, Isa. 53:5

This is the textual foundation for the doctrine of the vicarious, substitutionary atonement.

"Smitten of God"

It was God's will that Jesus die (cf. Isa. 53:10; John 3:16; Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21). Jesus' trial and death were not accidents or mistakes, but the plan of God (cf. Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20).

53:5 "pierced. . .crushed" As "bore" and "carried" in Isa. 53:4 were parallel, so too, these verbs.

pierced ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal participle usually by a sword in battle, but not here. The same root means "polluted" for mankind's purification and forgiveness.
crushed ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual participle; this verb is used several times in Isaiah

Isa. 57:15 ‒ Niphal participle, "the heart of the contrite"

Isa. 3:15 ‒ Piel imperfect, "crushing My people"

Isa. 19:10; 53:5 ‒ Pual participle, "to be crushed"

Isa. 53:10 ‒ Piel infinitive construct, "to crush"
It denotes one who is humbled. In this context by YHWH Himself for the greater good of all mankind.

53:6 This is the OT counterpart to Rom. 3:9-18,23; 5:12,15,18; 11:32; Gal. 3:22. This shows the terrible development of the Fall of Genesis 3 (cf. Gen. 6:5,11-12; Ps. 14:3; 143:2).

"the iniquity of us all to fall on Him" Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. Everyone is potentially saved by Christ (cf. John 1:29; 3:16-17; 12:47; Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10; Titus 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 7:25; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Only willful unbelief keeps anyone from God.

Some commentators have tried to make a restrictive theological distinction between the "all" [twice] of Isa. 53:6 and "the many" of Isa. 53:11d and 12e. However, the parallelism of Rom. 5:18, "all" and "the many" of Isa. 5:19, clearly shows that they refer to the same group (i.e., fallen humanity made in the image and likeness of YHWH, Gen. 1:26-27).

God desires all humans to be saved ‒ John 4:42, 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; 2 Pet. 3:9).

53:6d
NASB, TEV   "fall on"
NKJV, NRSV, REB, Peshitta   "laid on"
NJB   "to bear on"
NET   "to attack"
JPSOA   "visited upon"
LXX   "gave him over to"
The MT has the verb (BDB 803, KB 910, Hiphil perfect), which can mean

cause to light upon (here)
cause one to entreat (KB 910, Hiphil, #2)
interpose (cf. Isa. 53:12, Qal participle)
attack or assail (NET, p. 1269, #10)
NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ISAIAH 53:7-9
7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

53:7 "Like a lamb" The sacrificial allusion is significant (cf. John 1:29 and 2 Cor. 5:21).

"He did not open His mouth" This means the Servant did not attempt to defend Himself. There are several allusions to this in Jesus' trials.

Jesus' night trial before Caiaphas ‒ Matt. 26:63; Mark 14:61
Jesus' trial before Pilate ‒ Matt. 27:12-14; Mark 15:5; John 19:9
Jesus before Herod the Tetrarch ‒ Luke 23:9
53:8a This may refer to Jesus' unfair trials.

before the Sanhedrin
before Pilate




53:8d "For the transgression of my people" This phrase shows that the term "Servant" in this context cannot be national Israel. The Servant dies (cf. Isa. 53:8c,d) for Israel.

Here the DSS has "of his people."

This song/poem has several rare and unusual verbals.

Isa. 52:15, "what had not been told" ‒ Pual perfect (BDB 707, KB 765)
Isa. 52:15, "they will understand" ‒ Hithpolel perfect (BDB 106, KB 122)
Isa. 53:4, "smitten" ‒ Hophal participle (BDB 645, KB 697)
Isa. 53:4, "afflicted" ‒ Pual participle (BDB 776, KB 853)
Isa. 53:5, "pierced" ‒ Poal participle (BDB 319, KB 320)
Isa. 53:5, "crushed" ‒ Pual participle (BDB 193, KB 221)
Isa. 53:7, "led" ‒ Hophal imperfect (BDB 384, KB 383)
Isa. 53:8, "considered" ‒ Polel imperfect (BDB 967, KB 1319)
53:9 Verse 9a and 9b may be antithetical parallelism on "rich," in this context referring to "the wicked." I think the first option is best. This verse describes so explicitly the crucifixion and burial of Jesus (cf. Matt. 27:38-59), as does Psalm 22.

I hold that the doctrine of Penal Substitution Atonement is biblical sound.
J.

 

[JBO]

Then why did John say there is another baptism through Jesus that would come and be mightier than his? If the water has already cleansed them of their sins what is the point of John speaking of being baptized with the Holy Spirit and power?

John didn't actually say that there was another baptism. In fact Paul stated that there was only one baptism. That one baptism, in water, provided forgiveness of sins, as did John's baptism, and, additionally, the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[rwb]

John didn't actually say that there was another baptism. In fact Paul stated that there was only one baptism. That one baptism, in water, provided forgiveness of sins, as did John's baptism, and, additionally, the gift of the Holy Spirit.

These two verses don't appear to agree with you. John's baptism was not for forgiveness of sins, it was given that they might repent/be sorrowful for their sins.

Mark 1:8 (KJV) I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 3:11 (KJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

[Behold]

That one baptism, in water, provided forgiveness of sins

Water Cults teach their deceived that "water washes away sin", or as you have been deceived to believe....as you stated..."water provided forgiveness of sin".

What you are teaching denies the Cross of Christ as what God offered as John 3:16, for forgiveness of sin.

@JBO , being a Cross denier, ... a person who teaches that the city water supply is God's Forgiveness, is not a good situation for you.

 

[JBO]

These two verses don't appear to agree with you. John's baptism was not for forgiveness of sins, it was given that they might repent/be sorrowful for their sins.

Mar 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

The baptism was performed on repentant believers, those who repented and were sorrowful for their sins; but it was a baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 1:8 (KJV) I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 3:11 (KJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

I am curious if you have any scripture describing that "other" baptism taking place; any scripture showing that it is a different baptism.

 

[JBO]

Water Cults teach their deceived that "water washes away sin", or as you have been deceived to believe....as you stated..."water provided forgiveness of sin".

I don't believe that and never have. And I have never stated that water provided forgiveness of sin.

What you are teaching denies the Cross of Christ as what God offered as John 3:16, for forgiveness of sin.

@JBO , being a Cross denier, ... a person who teaches that the city water supply is God's Forgiveness, is not a good situation for you.

I am not a cross denier. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.

Maybe you should get your facts straight before you go about assessing another's situation, instead of just running off at the mouth, a really self-righteous mouth at that.

 

[Behold]

Mar 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

The baptism was performed on repentant believers, those who repented and were sorrowful for their sins; but it was a baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I am curious if you have any scripture describing that "other" baptism taking place; any scripture showing that it is a different baptism.

IN the OT< you have John the Baptist's Baptism.., and it was for forgiveness... but it was temporary.
It was the same with all old testament sin offerings..

So, if we were in the OT, then there is no Cross, no Christ, and all we would have, as those JEWS had it, (not gentiles)...= a priest, and the slaying of animals, that was a putting away of sin, but not a eternal forgiveness.

Whereas, in the New Testament, where you find the body of Christ, and the New Covenant.., .we find that Jesus on THE CROSS= is this.

"Jesus is the ONE TIME.... Eternal ..,. Sacrifice for sin".

Not Water.
Not slain animals.

But Jesus Himself, is our "sin bearer" and our eternal redemption from sin., and that is because..

"God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"...

So reader, when a heretic tells you that ... ."no, its the city water supply that is your salvation, that is your way to be cleansed from your sin".. then mark this person as a deceiver who is trying to bring you into their "water Cult" theology, and their deception.
Discern these Cross Rejecting Liars, and avoid them.

 

[Johann]

Maybe you should get your facts straight before you go about assessing another's situation, instead of just running off at the mouth, a really self-righteous mouth at that.

The interpretation of water baptism unto repentance for the remission of sins, is supported by Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:3; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12 to 16; Acts 19:3 to 7. This baptism began with the ministry of John the Baptist: Hear his own words: John 1:31:

“AND I KNEW HIM NOT: BUT THAT HE SHOULD BE MADE MANIFEST TO ISRAEL, THEREFORE AM I COME BAPTIZING WITH WATER.”

There was one baptism for God’s people while Christ was on earth. Christ’s baptism unto death took place on the cross. Luke 12:47 to 52.

After the close of the Book of Acts, the statement in Ephesians 4:5, is “one baptism”. Baptism was not something new with Israel. Hebrews 9:10. But the baptism committed to John had a special significance. There were three baptisms in the “Acts” period, “water baptism”, “Holy Spirit baptism”, and “death baptism”. Acts 1:5; Acts 11:14 and 15; I Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; Acts 19:2 to 7 and Romans 8:3.

When the twelve apostles were baptized, many months before Christ’s baptism unto death, before His resurrection, the Twelve knew not what the rising from the dead meant and knew nothing concerning Christ’s death baptism. Matthew 16:21 to 23; Mark 9:10; Luke 9:44 and 45; Luke 18:31 to 34; John 20:9. Therefore we observe that the Twelve were certainly not baptized with water as an indication or acknowledgment that they had been buried with Christ by baptism. And certainly not to indicate that they had joined the Church, which is His Body. That Church was not when they were baptized. The Twelve never received the second water baptism after Christ’s death baptism.

Water baptism is called by different names “a kingdom ordinance,” “a church ordinance,” “New Testament baptism”, “kingdom baptism”, “Christian baptism”. But all of these names have been suggested by men: they are not found in the Bible.

All students of the Word of God are greed that the baptism of I Corinthians 12:13 is not water baptism.

I Corinthians 12:13:

“FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OR GENTILES, WHETHER WE BE BOND OR FREE; AND HAVE BEEN ALL MADE TO DRINK INTO ONE SPIRIT.”

“Baptized in One Spirit into One Body.” In Ephesians 4:4 to 6 there is mention of one Body, one Spirit, one Baptism. Jews and Greeks were not baptized in one Spirit into one Body at the time John Baptist was baptizing with water that Christ might be made manifest to Israel; at the time the Twelve were baptized with water. It is one thing for Israel to have water baptism to have their Messiah manifested to them: it is quite a different thing for Israelites and Gentiles to be united in One Body by Holy Spirit baptism.

John’s water baptism was in connection with Christ’s proclamation of the kingdom to Israel. Therefore there is Scriptural authority for “kingdom baptism”. But “Christian baptism” is an indefinite, uncertain expression; an expression from the pen of theologians but not found in the Bible: Some differentiate between kingdom water baptism while Christ was on earth, and what they call Christian water baptism after the Spirit came from heaven. But they cannot Scripturally prove the two different water baptisms by the experience of Twelve. According to this discrimination the Twelve never received Christian baptism; only Israelitish kingdom baptism.

If John’s baptism was New Covenant baptism, and if there is anything to the law of first occurrence, what meaning had water baptism until the last occurrence of water baptism in Acts 19:2 to 7? We should not prove the meaning by the exception to the order set forth in Acts 10:34 to 48, the experience of Cornelius and his house; remembering that Cornelius was the first Gentile to come in with the Jews who required a sign.

There is no Scriptural authority for the two-fold designation of water baptism. “kingdom baptism”, and “Christian baptism”. This is theory and tradition.

Neither has a Christian Scriptural authority for changing the order of Mark 16:16, “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”, to “he that believeth and is saved shall be baptized”. If we are to hold on to water on the authority of that Scripture, let us observe the order. If we do, how can we reconcile that gospel with the gospel of Romans 3:24 and Ephesians 2:8 and 9? Water baptism has no place in the message of pure grace as it had in Mark 16:16. Christ sent Paul not to baptize. I Corinthians 1:17.

This leads us to this important declaration. No Scripture instructs one member of the Body of Ephesians to baptize with water another believer who is already a member of that Body. The one baptism of Ephesians 4:5, like the one baptism of Romans 6:3, produces a spiritual change in the sinner. By that one baptism the believing sinner is identified with Christ in death, burial and resurrection. As the result of that one baptism, the believer is seated in the heavenlies in Christ and blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies. Forever is he a member of the Body of Christ. Water baptism today produces no spiritual change in any sinner or saint:

Water baptism neither helps to save any sinner nor helps to keep him saved. All such messengers admit that water baptism has absolutely no efficacy to aid toward, or add to, the believer’s completeness in Christ or membership in His Body.

Colossians 2:10. Water baptism is not required by God for membership in the true Church, which is the Body of Christ. Water baptism is not required for salvation or regeneration. Water baptism is not demanded as a condition for receiving the Holy Spirit. Then water baptism, according to Ephesians, and according to the admissions of present-day grace preachers, does not have the meaning that it had in Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:3 to 7 or in Acts 8:12 to 17.

 

[Behold]

Maybe you should get your facts straight before you go about assessing another's situation, instead of just running off at the mouth, a really self-righteous mouth at that.

Maybe you should try to be honest.

In fact, if you look at your post #991, ... = you are trying to prove "water cult" salvation.

You said that water baptism is for "forgiveness of sin".

You deny it now?

Hummmmmm.

Do you see anyone else in this conversation trying to prove WATER is what you are trying to prove ?

Water gets you wet.
The Cross of Christ gets you forgiven.

Are they the same?
They are not.

 

[JBO]

IN the OT< you have John the Baptist's Baptism.., and it was for forgiveness... but it was temporary.
It was the same with all old testament sin offerings..

There is nothing said about the forgiveness of sins obtained through John's baptism being temporary. Baptism is not said to be a sin offering. Actually even in the OT, it wasn't a case of forgiveness being temporary; but it was a case of sin offerings being offered up for past sins; so that each year such offerings were offered up again.

So, if we were in the OT, then there is no Cross, no Christ, and all we would have, as those JEWS had it, (not gentiles)...= a priest, and the slaying of animals, that was a putting away of sin, but not a eternal forgiveness.

Whereas, in the New Testament, where you find the body of Christ, and the New Covenant.., .we find that Jesus on THE CROSS= is this.

"Jesus is the ONE TIME.... Eternal ..,. Sacrifice for sin".

Not Water.
Not slain animals.

But Jesus Himself, is our "sin bearer" and our eternal redemption from sin., and that is because..

"God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"...

So reader, when a heretic tells you that ... ."no, its the city water supply that is your salvation, that is your way to be cleansed from your sin".. then mark this person as a deceiver who is trying to bring you into their "water Cult" theology, and their deception.
Discern these Cross Rejecting Liars, and avoid them.

Yes, but the real significant difference between the OT sacrifices for sin and Jesus being offered up for sin was that in Jesus' sacrifice, he paid the penalty for sin which the sacrifice of bulls and goats could not provide, even though forgiveness for those sins was granted.

 

[Behold]

Water baptism neither helps to save any sinner nor helps to keep him saved.

Water gets you wet.
That's it.

The Cross of Christ is where the forgiveness of God deals eternally with the sinner, = unto Salvation.

Paul said.. ""For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for IT.... is the Power of God...... unto SALVATION for EVERYONE who Believes, (not just the elect)...... for the Jew first and also for the Greek.""

And what is the "Gospel"?

Its "the preaching of the Cross that is the POWER OF GOD, unto Salvation".

""""""""For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved .....IT... is the POWER= of God."

Not Water baptism
Not Works, or self effort or trying to be like Christ, or confessing sin, or living in a state of repentance.

 

[JBO]

Maybe you should try to be honest.

In fact, if you look at your post #991, ... = you are trying to prove "water cult" salvation.

You said that water baptism is for "forgiveness of sin".

Yesk water baptism is for the forgiveness of sin. That is what it says. That you don't believe what it says and more important do not know what that means doesn't change what it says. It does not say, as you claim, that water is the agent that brings forgiveness of sin. Baptism is simply the time, the occasion, when God forgives the repentant believer who is being baptized.

 

[Behold]

There is nothing said about the forgiveness of sins obtained through John's baptism being temporary.

The NEW TESTAMENT, NEW COVENANT, Cross of Christ.... denies The Roman Catholic Cult = Water Cult= Deceiver's Theology. @JBO


Water gets you wet.
That's it.

The Cross of Christ is where the forgiveness of God deals eternally with the sinner, = unto Salvation.

Paul said.. ""For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for IT.... is the Power of God...... unto SALVATION for EVERYONE who Believes, (not just the elect)...... for the Jew first and also for the Greek.""

And what is the "Gospel"?

Its "the preaching of the Cross that is the POWER OF GOD, unto Salvation".

""""""""For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved .....IT... is the POWER= of God."

Not Water baptism
Not Works, or self effort or trying to be like Christ, or confessing sin, or living in a state of repentance.

 

[Behold]

Yesk water baptism is for the forgiveness of sin.

Hell is filled with deceived people who believed exactly what you are teaching.
Thats a fact, they didnt plan on.. before they died and found out the hard way.
Believe it.

You are found on a "christian" forum, teaching water saves, vs the Cross of Christ.

Wake up, as this Roman Catholic "baptismal regeneration" Satanic bible teaching is : Of The Devil.

It denies the CROSS.
It denies John 14:6