22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[BreadOfLife]

“Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.” (Deuteronomy 16:22)​

So - how about that photo on your driver's license??
Or the pictures of Mom and Aunt Winnie on your mantle at home??

Complete Anti-Catholic hypocrisy . . .

 

[Michiah-Imla]

how about that photo on your driver's license??

I didn’t make that.

Or the pictures of Mom and Aunt Winnie on your mantle at home??

I don’t hang pictures in my home.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here we go again . . .

I've shoiwn you the current statistics of the decline of Christianity across the boared.
But, in the depths of your ignorance and itter denial - you live in a fantasy world . . .

What is "the boared". And he clearly did not deny itter.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: "I am catholic too... part of Christ's one holy, apostolic, catholic ~ universal ~ Church. And as of right now, that Church is invisible, meaning that we don't know for sure who all is actually a Member at present or will be at some point in the future." Nonsense.

LOL!!! Many will think it is, sure... :)

The Church is not “invisible” – but a VISIBLE entity,

Jesus told His disciples:
Matt. 5:14-16
“You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Catholic Church is certainly very visible, yes. :) As are the Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian... and countless others... churches. But Christ's Church is not visible as of now because we do not know for sure who its actual members are, because we cannot see the condition of the heart in any individual. We do not now know and cannot possibly discern exactly who the Father as given the Son. He's talking about sharing the Gospel, both in word and deed, BreadOfLife, and serving the Lord so that all can see... which is no mere thing...

Jesus’s prescription for settling matters between brothers in Matt. 18:15-18 could NOT happen within an “invisible” Church.

You don't mean to be, I get it, but you're talking about a very different matter, here.

the plain fact is that the numbers if those professing Christianity are indeed falling. Every major study and survey shows this alarming trend.

What I said in my previous post would not be at all contrary to this statement. Except maybe that it should really be "alarming." God's purposes cannot be thwarted; there should be great comfort in that.

The doesn’t imply that God “loses” in the end. It DOES, however bolster Jesus’s warning that MOST will choose the broad path to destruction (Matt. 7:13).

No argument here.

The Catholic Church is not a “denomination”.

Well, yes it is. :) We will agree to disagree here. But it very much is a recognized autonomous branch of the visible Christian Church, a religious organization whose congregations are united (somewhat) in their adherence to its beliefs and practices.

It is the Original Tree ...

Christ Jesus is the Tree, BreadOfLife. He is the true Vine, and we ~ not denominations, but all believers, the ones who are truly given Him by the Father, the Vinedresser ~ are the branches, as He says in John 15.

from Which the Protestant denominations were born – and continue to splinter to the tune of tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim that they were “led” to this confusion by the Holy Spirit.

No offense or disparagement of any kind intended, but that's just Catholic dogma.

On the night before He died, Jesus prayed fervently for the Unity of His Church – that it remain ONE – as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20:23).

Sure, absolutely. However... :)

But even you, BreadOfLife, would admit (I hope) that there is a terrible lack of unity within Catholicism ~ other than, really, lip service, just saying, basically, "we are one."

But sure, absolutely. And we are, and always will be. And we are kept together by the power of God, which gets back to the eternal security discussion we were having. As Christ told Paul (and it is thus true for all of us), “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness.” So, like Paul, we boast all the more gladly of our weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon us... for when we are weak, we are strong (2 Corinthians 12:9-10). We were raised with Christ through faith in the powerful working of God (Colossians 2:12) so our great God will make us worthy of His calling and will fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by His power (2 Thessalonians 1:11). And, as Paul also says, we are not to be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God (2 Timothy 1:8).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Illuminator]

No offense or disparagement of any kind intended, but that's just Catholic dogma.

Statistical facts have nothing to do with dogma. Endless division is not 'reform'.

Sure, absolutely. However... :)

But even you, BreadOfLife, would admit (I hope) that there is a terrible lack of unity within Catholicism ~ other than, really, lip service, just saying, basically, "we are one."

The Catholic League commissioned McLaughlin & Associates to do a national survey of Catholics. From September 3-12, they polled 800 Catholics in an online survey...
When asked how important your Catholic faith is in your life, 9-in-10 said it was important. One of the most encouraging findings was the large number of Catholics who rarely or never attend church who said that their Catholic faith was important to them: 78% said it was!

Are the news media biased against Catholics? A majority (57%) agree that it is, and only 31% disagree.

Does this matter? Yes. It no doubt helps to explain why 62% of Catholics agree that “it is getting harder to practice your faith and express your faith publicly in America.”

Is the Catholic Church an important voice of morality in America? You bet it is: 75% say it is. This includes 86% of weekly and 74% of monthly churchgoers; almost 7-in-10 (68%) of who those who rarely or never go to church also agree.

When asked if the Catholic Church should speak out more on moral issues, the results were auspicious: by a margin of 74% to 19%, respondents answered affirmatively. This is good news for those clergy members who may have been intimidated from speaking out more—the laity want you to speak out more!

More good news: 73% of Catholics identify as personally pro-life; 23% say they are pro-choice (most of them say their faith is not important to them).

When asked to agree or disagree about the propriety of the government forcing Catholic doctors and Catholic hospitals to perform abortions or sex-transition services against their will, 72% said the government should not do so; 19% disagreed. Even seven-in-ten (69%) of those who rarely or never go to church say the government should not do so.

Respondents were asked about gay and transgender issues. “While it is wrong for small businessmen to refuse services to gays, they have a religious right not to provide services that force them to approve of same-sex marriage.”

“The Catholic Church should continue to teach that there are only two sexes, male and female, and should not change its teaching.” Six-in-ten (59%) agreed and a third (32%) disagreed.

October 11 marks the 60th anniversary of the beginning of Vatican II. Did the Church go too fast or too slow in making changes, or were the changes just about right? There was no majority answer: 20% said the changes were too many and too fast; 37% said too few and too slow; 28% answered just about right.

The survey found that 66% of Catholics said that whether they agreed with most positions in the Catholic Church, or differed on some issues, the Church should not change its principles because of public opinion; only 27% said it should modernize. Even 55% of those who rarely or never go to church say the Church should not bend to what is popular!

I wanted to take it a step further. “If the Catholic church did NOT change its positions as many have suggested, how would that affect your commitment to the church?”

Those who said they would be “more committed” totaled 29%; 41% said they would be “as committed.” Which means that 70% of Catholics either would be more committed, or as committed, to the Church if it did not make the changes that many say it should make. Only 7% said they would be less committed.

The extent to which Catholics—even the non-practicing ones—find their faith to be important, is great news. That they also want the Church to speak up more on moral issues is something that cannot be punctuated enough.

Most impressive is the degree to which Catholics admire the constancy of Catholic teachings, even if they may not always agree with everything the Church teaches—they do not want it to cave into public pressure. This needs to be taken to heart by the laity and clergy alike. Most polls would never tap this subject.

Overall, the results were promising. They stand in stark contrast to the spin that critics of the Church continue to master.

Spin like this: "But even you, BreadOfLife, would admit (I hope) that there is a terrible lack of unity within Catholicism ~ other than, really, lip service, just saying, basically, "we are one."

SURVEY OF CATHOLICS IS MOSTLY PROMISING

Bill Donohue The Catholic League commissioned McLaughlin & Associates to do a national survey of Catholics. From September 3-12, they polled 800 Catholics in an online survey. What follows is an abbreviated analysis of what will appear in the October edition of our monthly, Catalyst. To read the...

www.catholicleague.org

 

[Illuminator]

Sounds like the church failed humanity. If it were not for the Reformation, the church would have kept failing humanity forever.

Is that your response to #8352? You ignored it because you are afraid of it. The Church hasn't failed humanity, humanity hasn't fully tried the Church.

• The charity and health centers run by the Church around the world include: 5,245 hospitals, mostly in Africa (1,418) and America (1,362);
• 14,963 dispensaries, mainly in Africa (5,307), in America (4,043);
• 532 Care homes for people with leprosy, mainly in Asia (269) and Africa (201);
• 15,429 Homes for the elderly, chronically ill or disabled, mainly in Europe (8,031) and America (3,642);
• 9,374 orphanages, mainly in Asia (3,233) and Europe (2,247); 10,723 nurseries, mainly in Asia (2,973) and America (2,957);
• 12,308 marriage counseling centers, mainly in Europe (5,504) and America (4,289); 3,198 social reintegration centers and 33,840 other types of institutes.

To whom much have been given, much is expected.

 

[PinSeeker]

Statistical facts have nothing to do with dogma.

You apparently missed the point. Badly. :) One of the things (among others) I was referring to, Illuminator, was the statement that "the Catholic Church... is the Original Tree from Which the Protestant denominations were born." I don't mean to disparage, but that assertion is very much untrue and as such quite ridiculous... and dogmatic, and even propagandist in nature.

But to yours... statistics can be made to say some things they really don't say at all... can be made to "say" what people want them to say, anyway. But again, most of what you wrote ~ and, I will say, not to label it as good or bad or anywhere in between ~ was and is very much beside the point.

This I'll respond to, because it's somewhat relevant to what I had said before to BreadOfLife:

Endless division is not 'reform'.

The whole impetus of the Reformation was to return Christianity back to Scripture and its Scriptural roots ~ and to thereby to promote unity rather than somehow detracting from it ~ from Catholicism and its... well, from Catholicism and some of the Scriptural understandings and practices it had instituted for various reasons over the past few centuries. The Reformers, from Martin Luther and John Calvin and others, where not then ~ and neither is anyone now ~ saying that "all of Catholicism was or is bad," or even close, but there were ~ and are still ~ serious issues. Hopefully you understand my meaning.

The purpose of the Reformation was most assuredly not "endless division." To suppose it was or even to try to paint it that way is ridiculous, really; it was quite the opposite of "endless division."

Grace and peace to you, Illuminator.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I didn’t make that.

You POSED for it – so you are just as “guilty”.

I don’t hang pictures in my home.

The photos on your cell phone and the picture on your Avatar on this forum, etc . . .
YOUR problem is that you erroneously believe e that creating images was forbidden by God. It WASN’T.

Creating images for the purpose of WORSIPPING them was what was forbidden.

- God commanded Moses to create a Bronze Serpent and place it on a pole so that the people who gazed upon it would be healed (Num. 21:4-9). .
- God commanded Moses to place 2 Golden Cherubim to place on the Ark (Exod. 25:18-20).
- Solomon placed giant statues in the Temple – and this pleased God (2 Chron. 7:7).

More anti-Catholic nonsense . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

What is "the boared". And he clearly did not deny itter.

TRANSLATION:
"I don't have a thought in my head - so I'll poke at you typos . . ."

Good job, Einstein . . .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

TRANSLATION:
"I don't have a thought in my head - so I'll poke at you typos . . ."

Good job, Einstein . . .

I've already poked plenty of holes in your clown show and in false Catholic doctrines. Which you just ignore. You can't even type and then you try to make fun of someone else's intelligence. LOL. Nice one, Einstein Junior. If you want to insist on continuing to make a fool of yourself, then I guess I can't stop you. Let the clown show continue, I suppose.

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL!!! Many will think it is, sure... :)


The Catholic Church is certainly very visible, yes. :) As are the Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian... and countless others... churches. But Christ's Church is not visible as of now because we do not know for sure who its actual members are, because we cannot see the condition of the heart in any individual. We do not now know and cannot possibly discern exactly who the Father as given the Son. He's talking about sharing the Gospel, both in word and deed, BreadOfLife, and serving the Lord so that all can see... which is no mere thing...
You don't mean to be, I get it, but you're talking about a very different matter, here.

No – unless YOU mean something very different by “Church”.

Scripture does NOT support the idea iof an “invisible” church. Over and over we are told how it is a visible entity (Matt. 5:15) with members that NEED each other (1 Cor. 12:1-31).

There are first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues (1 Cor. 12:28).

Nothing "invisible" about that . . .

What I said in my previous post would not be at all contrary to this statement. Except maybe that it should really be "alarming." God's purposes cannot be thwarted; there should be great comfort in that.

I didn’t say thwarted – I said, diminished.

And you can't have "MOST" people headed for desctruction if the numbers are increasing . . .

No argument here.
Well, yes it is. :) We will agree to disagree here. But it very much is a recognized autonomous branch of the visible Christian Church, a religious organization whose congregations are united (somewhat) in their adherence to its beliefs and practices.

Well, no, it’s not.

Denominations are re-named offshoots of the Original.

Christ Jesus is the Tree, BreadOfLife. He is the true Vine, and we ~ not denominations, but all believers, the ones who are truly given Him by the Father, the Vinedresser ~ are the branches, as He says in John 15.

Jesus compares His very SELF to His Church (Acts 9:4=5).
Paul refers to the Church as the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23)

You CANNOT know Jesus without knowing His Church,

No offense or disparagement of any kind intended, but that's just Catholic dogma.

It's "Catholic dogma" that Protestant factions teach different doctrines based on the SAME Scriptures??
HUH??

Sure, absolutely. However... :)

But even you, BreadOfLife, would admit (I hope) that there is a terrible lack of unity within Catholicism ~ other than, really, lip service, just saying, basically, "we are one."

But sure, absolutely. And we are, and always will be. And we are kept together by the power of God, which gets back to the eternal security discussion we were having. As Christ told Paul (and it is thus true for all of us), “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness.” So, like Paul, we boast all the more gladly of our weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon us... for when we are weak, we are strong (2 Corinthians 12:9-10). We were raised with Christ through faith in the powerful working of God (Colossians 2:12) so our great God will make us worthy of His calling and will fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by His power (2 Thessalonians 1:11). And, as Paul also says, we are not to be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God (2 Timothy 1:8).

Grace and peace to you.

There are faithful Catholics within the Catholic Church – and there are dissidents.
They’re called, “Protestants” . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I've already poked plenty of holes in your clown show and in false Catholic doctrines. Which you just ignore. You can't even type and then you try to make fun of someone else's intelligence. LOL. Nice one, Einstein Junior. If you want to insist on continuing to make a fool of yourself, then I guess I can't stop you. Let the clown show continue, I suppose.

Now THAT'S hilarious . . .

Would you mind pointing me to a SINGLE post where you "poked plenty of holes" in a Catholic doctrine?

Yeah - that's what I thought, Einstein . . .

 

[Illuminator]

You apparently missed the point. Badly. :) One of the things (among others) I was referring to, Illuminator, was the statement that "the Catholic Church... is the Original Tree from Which the Protestant denominations were born." I don't mean to disparage, but that assertion is very much untrue and as such quite ridiculous... and dogmatic, and even propagandist in nature.

No, "the Catholic Church... is the Original Tree from Which the Protestant denominations were born." is a historical fact you don't like.

But to yours... statistics can be made to say some things they really don't say at all... can be made to "say" what people want them to say, anyway. But again, most of what you wrote ~ and, I will say, not to label it as good or bad or anywhere in between ~ was and is very much beside the point.

The survey presented is based on answers to questions, it is not "beside the point" to your spin of Catholic disunity.

This I'll respond to, because it's somewhat relevant to what I had said before to BreadOfLife:


The whole impetus of the Reformation was to return Christianity back to Scripture and its Scriptural roots ~ and to thereby to promote unity rather than somehow detracting from it ~ from Catholicism and its... well, from Catholicism and some of the Scriptural understandings and practices it had instituted for various reasons over the past few centuries. The Reformers, from Martin Luther and John Calvin and others, where not then ~ and neither is anyone now ~ saying that "all of Catholicism was or is bad," or even close, but there were ~ and are still ~ serious issues. Hopefully you understand my meaning.

The so called "reformation" is locked into 16th century politics, and remains so.

The purpose of the Reformation was most assuredly not "endless division." To suppose it was or even to try to paint it that way is ridiculous, really; it was quite the opposite of "endless division."

I never said the so called 'reformation' was purposed for endless division, endless division is the consequence of the reformation. It began when Calvin disagreed with Luther, and the divisions haven't stopped since.

The Bible repeatedly teaches that the Church is indefectible; therefore, the hypothetical of rejecting the (one true, historic) Church, as supposedly going against the Bible, is impossible according to the Bible. It is not a situation that would ever come up, because of God’s promised protection.

What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, which is the very essence of the onset of Protestantism: schism, sectarianism, and division. It is Protestantism that departed from the historic Church, which is indefectible and infallible (see also 1 Tim 3:15).

Your glorious reformation isn't so glorious.

Protestant Inquisitions: “Reformation” Intolerance & Persecution​

a treatise featuring Protestant and secular historians with a detailed bibliography.

Grace and peace to you, Illuminator.

and also with you.

 

[Illuminator]

I've already poked plenty of holes in your clown show and in false Catholic doctrines.

Then give the post numbers.

Which you just ignore. You can't even type and then you try to make fun of someone else's intelligence. LOL. Nice one, Einstein Junior. If you want to insist on continuing to make a fool of yourself, then I guess I can't stop you. Let the clown show continue, I suppose.

But you never identify which Catholic doctrines are false, just lame generalities and stupid insults.

Amongst the assailants of the Church, there are very many the vehemence of whose declamation is in precise proportion to their ignorance of the doctrines they condemn. Such persons cure rather objects for pity. They will not, of course, take the Church’s teaching from herself; for then it may not be so easy to refute it. They persistently attribute to her doctrines which she does not hold, and so they readily refute the phantoms of their own creation. They act just like those pagans of whom Tertullian said: ‘They are unwilling to hear, what, if heard, they could not condemn.’

Again, Spiritual Israelite persistently attributes to her doctrines which she does not hold, and so he readily refutes the phantoms of his own creation.
Fear of the truth is a paralyzing neurosis.

The Papal Encyclicals Online

“The Papal Encyclicals 1740-1981” published by Pierian Press. For several years, St. Michael’s Depot included these documents.

www.papalencyclicals.net

Spiritual Israelite will not, of course, take the Church’s teaching from herself; for then it may not be so easy to refute it. He calls it a clown show to avoid thinking. "I've already poked plenty of holes in your clown show and in false Catholic doctrines." Let's put your "false Catholic doctrines" in a phrase, topic or question form as per my signature. It's one click away. That way you can critique what we really believe instead of conjuring up more phantoms.

 

[covenantee]

But you never identify which Catholic doctrines are false, just lame generalities and stupid insults.

We've identified "saint" Robert Bellarmine's blasphemous deification of the popes.

Which is anything but a lame generality.

 

[BreadOfLife]

We've identified "saint" Robert Bellarmine's blasphemous deification of the popes.

Which is anything but a lame generality.

In post #8310 - I responded to your Bellarmine nonsense and showed you how you took his quotes out of context. Anyway - this isn't a doctrinal matter.

I repeatedly-challenged you afterward to explain why you adhere too the 39-Book OT Canon that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) who proclaimed a FALSE Messiah (Simon Bar Kokhba), in the 2nd century.

Your usual hypocrisy . . .

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The photos on your cell phone and the picture on your Avatar on this forum, etc

Non of these things are in a worship setting.

H E L L O ? ? ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now THAT'S hilarious . . .

Would you mind pointing me to a SINGLE post where you "poked plenty of holes" in a Catholic doctrine?

Yeah - that's what I thought, Einstein . . .

Oh, so you think your doctrines regarding purgatory, the pope, Supposedly Sinless Mary, etc. are sound doctrines with no holes in them, do ya? LOL! Thanks for yet another laugh, Einstein Junior. And for the continuous clown show.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then give the post numbers and stop being such a coward.

But you never identify which Catholic doctrines are false, just lame generalities and stupid insults.

You know how many posts are in this thread at this point? I have posted about the purgatory nonsense, the pope nonsense, the sinless Mary nonsense, the literal drinking of Jesus's blood and literal eating of His body nonsense and other doctrinal nonsense that Catholics believe. You are being lazy. You expect me to go back and give you post numbers? Go find them and stop being lazy.

 

[covenantee]

In post #8310 - I responded to your Bellarmine nonsense and showed you how you took his quotes out of context. Anyway - this isn't a doctrinal matter.

I repeatedly-challenged you afterward to explain why you adhere too the 39-Book OT Canon that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) who proclaimed a FALSE Messiah (Simon Bar Kokhba), in the 2nd century.

Your usual hypocrisy . . .

Blasphemy isn't a doctrinal matter?!

Thanks for the guffaw.