PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[ewq1938]

Like I said, if you can find it, I will believe it. I have no problems humbling myself and learning something new. But I have never seen it.
John penned 4 verses on antichrists.

1. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
2. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Christ said in Matthew 24,
For many will come in My name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

None of these can say without a doubt that the man of sin, denies Christ, that Jesus came in the flesh and that he is not from God.
Now, Jesus also did say in Matthew 24,

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

Obviously, the False Prophet is one of these that works miracles. But I don't see any context that 100% links him to be Antichrist.

Ac is not the only name or title the bible uses for the same person just like Jesus has many as well.

Edit: Is a Fake Christ or a Fake Prophet the same as an Anti Christ or an Anti Prophet? Or is a Fake Christian the same as Anti Christian?

If someone is against Christ, or impersonates Christ, he is antichrist. Those are literally the definitions in the Greek for anti.

 

[ewq1938]

The only thing it is proof of is that when God sics Satan on the world the old boy is mad as a wet hornet. All part of the wrath of God. Undeniably.

Rev 12 says Christians are the targets of satan's wrath, which you claim is part of teh wrath of God so according to you some Christians WILL suffer the wrath of God via satan yet you contradict that also:

The wrath of God is not something we are to be part of.

Contradictions are one sign of faulty theology.

Another wrong claim. The Bride is with Jesus at the time of the wrath on earth.

Some are but some are on the Earth being persecuted and killed by satan, according to Rev 11, 12-13 and Jesus in the Olivet discourse.

 

[David in NJ]

Not in any way is that even related to a shadow of the truth. Spamming verses does not help your position. They just show you don't understand them.

If pre-trib rapture were truth anyone would be able to find God speaking it = in His Word.

Since it never came out of the Mouth of God all you have are your own words - when that fails you go to ad hominem.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I do not apply His wrath. He does.

That is actually funny! I was saying, you may interpret God’s wrath starting before the first seal or perhaps after the 6th seal or even after the 7th Trumpet. Where you interpret that wrath to begin differs from my own. But, I believe the church is not for God’s wrath just as you do. It’s a matter of when his wrath on man begins. Hope that clears it up.

The whole end time centers around Israel and Jerusalem and Jews!

Yes, it is centered around Israel. And who is Israel according to the NT? God already delt with the Jews. If you look at the first 3 Ch.s of Revelation, he’s dealing with his church next. But Jews will turn to Christ and so will gentiles.

 

[No Pre-TB]

If someone is against Christ, or impersonates Christ, he is antichrist. Those are literally the definitions in the Greek for anti.

Ok, I can see a little reason there. But the man of sin is a false prophet and not a false Christ. Does Antichrist also mean false prophet? I ask because Jesus separated the two by saying false Christ and false prophets will come.

 

[David in NJ]

That is actually funny! I was saying, you may interpret God’s wrath starting before the first seal or perhaps after the 6th seal or even after the 7th Trumpet. Where you interpret that wrath to begin differs from my own. But, I believe the church is not for God’s wrath just as you do. It’s a matter of when his wrath on man begins. Hope that clears it up.

Yes, it is centered around Israel. And who is Israel according to the NT? God already delt with the Jews. If you look at the first 3 Ch.s of Revelation, he’s dealing with his church next. But Jews will turn to Christ and so will gentiles.

Brother,

Please review Romans chapters 9, 10, 11 concerning the earthbound Israel/Jews.

It is TRUTH that there are two separate Israels - one of the flesh that are dead sins and the One of the Spirit - true Israel of God

As such, there are two separate Jerusalems - one on earth in bondage and the other who is "Mother of us who Believe in Heaven Above"

So also, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
7Understand, then, that those who have faith are sons of Abraham.
8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery:
This is Hagar.
25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Brother,

Please review Romans chapters 9, 10, 11 concerning the earthbound Israel/Jews.

It is TRUTH that there are two separate Israels - one of the flesh that are dead sins and the One of the Spirit - true Israel of God

As such, there are two separate Jerusalems - one on earth in bondage and the other who is "Mother of us who Believe in Heaven Above"

So also, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
7Understand, then, that those who have faith are sons of Abraham.
8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery:
This is Hagar.
25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Yes, I am aware. I was trying to explain to him we are the Israel of God. But many churches today are still looking to Physical Israel and Jews by blood.
Dispensationalism is something that really twist things

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, I am aware. I was trying to explain to him we are the Israel of God. But many churches today are still looking to Physical Israel and Jews by blood.
Dispensationalism is something that really twist things

Yes, Dispensationalism is based on pre-trib rapture and it separates Jew from Gentile in Christ., distorting Truth.

On the other hand, God has not forgotten the people/Jews whom He foreknew and He will restore them.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Zechariah 14:1-7
Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. 2For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.

3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. 5You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.

6On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7It will be a day known only to the LORD, without day or night; but when evening comes, there will be light.

 

[rwb]

Paul was simply assuring the Thessalonians that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture had NOT taken place as yet, as some were claiming, and disturbing the Christians. But both Christ and Paul refused to connect the Rapture to any Tribulation. The apostolic churches anticipated the imminent return of Christ for His saints at any time. And that is exactly what Christ had said.

As we can see in these two verses, Paul was simply assuring the Thessalonians that not only had NOT our Lord Jesus Christ yet returned, but then goes on to explain to them how the Day of Christ' return wasn't even close (at hand), because He will not come again until what he writes shall come to pass. Paul had to give them assurance that Christ had not already returned, nor was He close to returning, because some deceivers had convinced them that Christ had already come again, and they were not gathered together with Him.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

[David in NJ]

Paul was simply assuring the Thessalonians that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture had NOT taken place as yet, as some were claiming, and disturbing the Christians. But both Christ and Paul refused to connect the Rapture to any Tribulation. The apostolic churches anticipated the imminent return of Christ for His saints at any time. And that is exactly what Christ had said.

When was the last time you read thru 1 Thessalonians start to finish?

Maybe you missed these parts:
1:10 - and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

2:14-16 - For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus.
You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews,
who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well.
They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men, hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved.
As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.

3:1-5 - Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith,
that no one should be shaken by these trials; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.(John 16:33, Matt ch24)

For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer persecution, just as it happened, and you know.
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

trials.
θλίψεσιν (thlipsesin)
Noun - Dative Feminine Plural
Strong's Greek 2347: Persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation. From thlibo; pressure.

suffer persecution;
θλίβεσθαι (thlibesthai)
Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive
Strong's Greek 2346: (a) I make narrow (strictly: by pressure); I press upon, (b) I persecute, press hard. Akin to the base of tribos; to crowd.

Tribulation including the 'great tribulation' is not the wrath of God that is coming.

When you read Revelation you will SEE that the Saints are on earth suffering great tribulation/persecution - Rev ch6, ch7, ch12, ch14

The wrath of God is only poured out on unbelievers who receive the coming Mark of the Beast.

After the Tribulation has completed it's course then the LORD Jesus Christ Returns for the Resurrection & rapture = Matt ch24
By which we are then delivered from the "wrath of the Lamb" for HE comes as the Promised Deliverer = 1 Thess 1:10

 

[dad]

Rev 12 says Christians are the targets of satan's wrath, which you claim is part of teh wrath of God so according to you some Christians WILL suffer the wrath of God via satan yet you contradict that also:

The believers here after the Rapture will be many. It will be tough and many will die. No contradiction whatsoever.

Some are but some are on the Earth being persecuted and killed by satan, according to Rev 11, 12-13 and Jesus in the Olivet discourse.

No, that is the same error as above, where you lump the Bride/church that goes up into the air inn with the new Jewish and other believers that believe in the Tribulation period. Not the same group. All believers, but the post rapture new believers are not who misses the wrath period.

 

[dad]

If pre-trib rapture were truth anyone would be able to find God speaking it = in His Word.

If a horse were thirsty it should be able to find the river.

 

[David in NJ]

The believers here after the Rapture will be many. It will be tough and many will die. No contradiction whatsoever.


No, that is the same error as above, where you lump the Bride/church that goes up into the air inn with the new Jewish and other believers that believe in the Tribulation period. Not the same group. All believers, but the post rapture new believers are not who misses the wrath period.

Christ does not leave any Saints behind.

Just as pre-trib rapture is a lie it gives birth to more lies = "left behind tribulation saints"

 

[David in NJ]

If a horse were thirsty it should be able to find the river.

Well i see you cannot find the Living Waters of Truth concerning His Second Coming and the Resurrection.

If there was truth in pre-trib rapture, God would of spoken it but as such HE did not for it is impossible for God to lie.

Which is why you cannot find a single 'pre-trib rapture' declaration or prophecy in the Holy Scriptures.

Living Waters of Truth can be found in Post #270 and even more in the Holy Scriptures from which it came.

 

[dad]

That is actually funny! I was saying, you may interpret God’s wrath starting before the first seal or perhaps after the 6th seal or even after the 7th Trumpet. Where you interpret that wrath to begin differs from my own. But, I believe the church is not for God’s wrath just as you do. It’s a matter of when his wrath on man begins. Hope that clears it up.

Zec
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.


15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

That does sound like the time Daniel was talking about

Daniel 12:1
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

And that Jesus spoke about

Luke 21:23
Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people

So it seems the wrath is like a woman in travail. It increases. The worst is at the very end with the bowls of wrath and when Jesus returns to slay all the wicked.

Yes, it is centered around Israel. And who is Israel according to the NT? God already delt with the Jews. If you look at the first 3 Ch.s of Revelation, he’s dealing with his church next. But Jews will turn to Christ and so will gentiles.

Israel is the nation being invaded! The nation with the holy place. The nation where the beast will set of the abomination of desolation. The nation where the 2 witnesses will have their dead bodies lie in the streets. The nation that all nations will come against. The nation where those on the housetops need to drop everything and flee right away when they see the holy place defiled. The nation that God started long ago, whose fathers were Jacob and Abraham etc. The nation that will have most of the people killed in the end. The nation that will finally all get saved (those who remain alive). Etc The bulk of the Jews did not and will not turn to Christ till the end. The saved Jews now are the Bride and church like the rest of us.

 

[dad]

Christ does not leave any Saints behind.

Just as pre-trib rapture is a lie it gives birth to more lies = "left behind tribulation saints"

Who said He did? He does leave hundreds of thousands of witnesses who result in a new batch of saints!

 

[dad]

Well i see you cannot find the Living Waters of Truth concerning His Second Coming and the Resurrection.

If there was truth in pre-trib rapture, God would of spoken it but as such HE did not for it is impossible for God to lie.

Which is why you cannot find a single 'pre-trib rapture' declaration or prophecy in the Holy Scriptures.

Living Waters of Truth can be found in Post #270 and even more in the Holy Scriptures from which it came.

Can you find a single declaration that Jesus would first be born as a man and return thousands of years later? Understanding the bible does not rest on some single verse.

 

[David in NJ]

Who said He did? He does leave hundreds of thousands of witnesses who result in a new batch of saints!

Again, this type of thinking comes not from God and cannot be found in Scripture.

Furthermore it goes directly against the words of the LORD Jesus Christ - Matthew ch24

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

It goes directly against the words of the Apostles - 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 and 1 John 3:1-3

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[David in NJ]

Can you find a single declaration that Jesus would first be born as a man and return thousands of years later? Understanding the bible does not rest on some single verse.

Beginning in Genesis God declares both the first Coming of Messiah as well as His Second Coming.

i only asked you if you can find just one verse that declares a 'pre-trib rapture' of the Body of Christ anywhere in Scripture.

The OT contains His First Coming which includes:
a.) His Coming in the flesh
b.) His suffering
c.) betrayed and crucified
d.) 3 days = Jonah
e.) His Resurrection

The OT contains His Second Coming
a.) Allegorical story of Joseph
b.) Melchizedek King of Salem(Jerusalem)
c.) Zechariah chapter 14
d.) and more

Therefore, if 'pre-trib' rapture were truth then God would of spoken it and we would be able to SEE it in Scripture = OT and/or NT

 

[dad]

Again, this type of thinking comes not from God and cannot be found in Scripture.

Why say such ignorant things? Of course there are multitudes mentioned after the wrath. There are also oodles of witnesses including angels in the sky witnessing.

Furthermore it goes directly against the words of the LORD Jesus Christ - Matthew ch24

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Again a foolish false statement with zero connection to the topic or reality. I just pointed out how the gospel is preached in spades after we go up to be with Him in the air.

It goes directly against the words of the Apostles - 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 and 1 John 3:1-3

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

When did you think His coming was? He comes up over earth in the air for the Rapture. You thought that didn't count as Him coming for us? Seriously?

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

When He appears for us we will go up and be like Him. This is news?