PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[Randy Kluth]

I did not post that the Antichrist arrives.I posted what is stated in 2Th 2:4, which according to Dan 9:27 occurs in the middle of the week, which in accordance with Dan 8:13-14 occurs in the middle of the 2300 days, or about 3.5 years after the Antichrist emerges on the scene.
2TH 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Dan 9:27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
Dan 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “ How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?” 14 And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”

Yes, we disagree on your interpretation of Dan 9. It is not a Future Prophecy, but one that was historically fulfilled in the time of Christ. The prophecy of Antichrist is in Dan 7. Dan 8 and 11 speak of Antiochus 4, which has already been fulfilled in history. These prophecies, having to do with different time periods, Antiochus 4, the Roman siege, and the Antichrist, can easily be confused. But we should discuss them sensibly in a kind way.

It's okay if we disagree on these things, brother. But if you keep saying that "Jesus showed you this," and "Jesus showed you that," you are stepping beyond mere study to claiming to have revelations that are disputable. I strongly urge you *not* to do this unless you're absolutely sure that Jesus showed you these things.

Otherwise, it is just studied speculation. Making dogmatic claims based on divine revelation is sure to create division in the Body of Christ.

Personally, I will make dogmatic statements, independent of claimed "revelations," only if the Bible *explicitly* teaches certain things. Disputable passages invite speculations, and not dogmatic statements. At the very least, it should be acknowledged that the matters are disputed by recognized authorities and good Christians. This preserves reasonable, and friendly, debate.

 

[Randy Kluth]

CORRECT

Daniel 9:24-26
Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.

Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.

The Ministry of the LORD Jesus Christ was for approximately 3.5 years unto His Death & Resurrection.

The LORD Jesus Christ fulfilled the Most Important part of the 70th Week = "to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

The Gospel, Acts and Hebrews chapters 8, 9, 10 confirm this and Revelation confirms this.

When the last 3.5 years begins is up to the FATHER and we will only know what we have already been told in His word.

All by FAITH = in His word = Gospel, Apostles, OT Prophets and Revelation

Peace

I don't know for sure if the 70th Week even has to be entirely completed? I personally believe the 70 Weeks Period was intended for the 70th Week to be a Half-Week. That is, the Main Event, completing this 70 Week period, is the termination of Jesus' 3.5 year ministry by his death.

The passage has been talking about the Roman Leader who will destroy Jerusalem and the temple. The "People of the Ruler to come" represents the Roman Army under a Roman Leader. A "People" don't destroy a city and a sanctuary unless they represent an *Army!*

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near."

So for me, the covenant with the Jewish People is the Roman Leadership supporting Israel during the time of the 70th Week, which is during Jesus' ministry. I realize that I'm not viewing this as an actual historical document! I'm viewing this strictly as an unstated "covenant" policy practiced by the Roman leadership during the time of Jesus' ministry. They are essentially overseeing Israel during the time of Jesus' ministry.

But the actual fulfillment of the entire 70 Weeks Prophecy involves the Roman Leadership turning on Jesus in the midst of this ministry period to have him killed. And ultimately, Rome destroys Jerusalem and the temple in the same generation in which this happens.

This is the stated goal of the 70 Weeks Prophecy...

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

I view these 6 items to be fulfilled in the coming of Messiah, which was Jesus' earthly ministry. At the cross, Jesus completed prophecy and fulfilled all of these items. He anointed the Most Holy Place by appearing in Jerusalem and by establishing himself as the final High Priest of God.

And the 70 Weeks Prophecy therefore ends the period with the cutting off of Christ, followed by the destruction of the temple and the city in his generation. This is precisely what we see in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, particularly in Luke 21.

Dan 9.26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come [the Roman Army] will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He [the Roman ruler] will confirm a covenant with many [Israel] for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering [kill Christ]. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation [the Roman Army], until the end that is decreed is poured out on [the temple].

I assure you I'm not dogmatic on this--it is a hotly-disputed passage. This is just my present thoughts for the consideration of anybody. I've held to just about every possible position on this passage. This is just my latest perspective, after about 50 years of trying! ;) It is the climax of an effort of harmonizing the passage internally and externally. I try to consistently apply the figures within the passage, and compare the passage with the Olivet Discourse.

 

[David in NJ]

I don't know for sure if the 70th Week even has to be entirely completed? I personally believe the 70 Weeks Period was intended for the 70th Week to be a Half-Week. That is, the Main Event, completing this 70 Week period, is the termination of Jesus' 3.5 year ministry by his death.

The passage has been talking about the Roman Leader who will destroy Jerusalem and the temple. The "People of the Ruler to come" represents the Roman Army under a Roman Leader. A "People" don't destroy a city and a sanctuary unless they represent an *Army!*

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near."

So for me, the covenant with the Jewish People is the Roman Leadership supporting Israel during the time of the 70th Week, which is during Jesus' ministry. I realize that I'm not viewing this as an actual historical document! I'm viewing this strictly as an instated "covenant" policy practiced by the Roman leadership during the time of Jesus' ministry. They are essentially overseeing Israel during the time of Jesus' ministry.

But the actual fulfillment of the entire 70 Weeks Prophecy involves the Roman Leadership turning on Jesus in the midst of this ministry period to have him killed. And ultimately, Rome destroys Jerusalem and the temple in the same generation in which this happens.

This is the stated goal of the 70 Weeks Prophecy...

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

I view these 6 items to be fulfilled in the coming of Messiah, which was Jesus' earthly ministry. At the cross, Jesus completed prophecy and fulfilled all of these items. He anointed the Most Holy Place by appearing in Jerusalem and by establishing himself as the final High Priest of God.

And the 70 Weeks Prophecy therefore ends the period with the cutting off of Christ, followed by the destruction of the temple and the city in his generation. This is precisely what we see in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, particularly in Luke 21.

Dan 9.26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come [the Roman Army] will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He [the Roman ruler] will confirm a covenant with many [Israel] for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering [kill Christ]. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation [the Roman Army], until the end that is decreed is poured out on [the temple].

I assure you I'm not dogmatic on this--it is a hotly-disputed passage. This is just my present thoughts for the consideration of anybody. I've held to just about every possible position on this passage. This is just my latest perspective, after about 50 years of trying! ;) It is the climax of an effort of harmonizing the passage internally and externally. I try to consistently apply the figures within the passage, and compare the passage with the Olivet Discourse.

Excellent points of scriptural observation and historical validity.

We can see that the Book of Daniel covers the First Coming of Messiah and His Second Coming.

Look at this from your post: "The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."

Compare to Matt ch24 - You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The Final Act - Zechariah 14 - His Second Coming
Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. 2For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. 5You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.

The LORD did not go out and fight against the Romans in 70AD = Prophecy yet to be fulfilled concerning Jerusalem

Now consider this - Daniel 2:36-45

Therefore based on the entire revelation from the Prophet Daniel, we have been given the complete 1st and 2nd Advents of LJC.

Conclusion: Certain Prophecy, as in Daniel(Jerusalem) will repeat until all things are fulfilled = Zechariah ch14, Matt ch24, Revelation

Peace and have a Great Day

 

[dad]

The belief in a 'rapture to heaven[, is so contrary to what we are exhorted to do, that it is incredible for anyone to believe it.
Many verses say how we must stand firm in our faith thru all that must happen. It will be our time of testing, as 1 Peter 4:12 plainly states.

1 peter 4:12 is not related to the end time. Claiming that it is shows you have not the ability to discern what is what regarding the Tribulation period.

What use to God would humans be in heaven?

Marriage? Rewarding them finally? Having eternal bodies like His as we were promised? Being where He is in His Father's house as promised...etc

We have been given our task, Matthew 28:20, It is not rescinded until Jesus Returns.

Again, not connected to the Rapture. Of course He is with us until He comes to get us! He also will be with the new believers, the tribulation saints until either they die or He returns TO the earth at the end of the Tribulation period.

The Prophecy which tells of the Lord's people meeting Him in the clouds, IS at the glorious Return. 1 Thess 4:17
There is no 'coming' of the Lord to gather His people before then.

Is is our trip out to be there with Him where He is. When He returns to earth He lands and sets foot here.

That makes three strikes for you. 3 verses unconnected to the issue.

 

[dad]

I personally believe the 70 Weeks Period was intended for the 70th Week to be a Half-Week. That is, the Main Event, completing this 70 Week period, is the termination of Jesus' 3.5 year ministry by his death.

The time we are given from the abomination till the end is 1260 days. Can you prove that the ministry of Jesus was 1260 days?

 

[Keraz]

1 peter 4:12 is not related to the end time.

But 1 Peter 4:13 says we must share in His sufferings until He is revealed......
You are wrong and your constant accusations against those who oppose your false beliefs, is an indictment against you.

 

[dad]

But 1 Peter 4:13 says we must share in His sufferings until He is revealed......
You are wrong and your constant accusations against those who oppose your false beliefs, is an indictment against you.

Since He is revealed before the wrath it is not talking about it as was pointed out. Your calling correction an accusation is wrong.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The time we are given from the abomination till the end is 1260 days. Can you prove that the ministry of Jesus was 1260 days?

no, that is thought to be the possible period of time of his ministry. the Gospels do not appear to give Jesus' ministry a very long period of time.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Excellent points of scriptural observation and historical validity.

We can see that the Book of Daniel covers the First Coming of Messiah and His Second Coming.

Look at this from your post: "The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."

Compare to Matt ch24 - You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The Final Act - Zechariah 14 - His Second Coming
Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. 2For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. 5You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.

The LORD did not go out and fight against the Romans in 70AD = Prophecy yet to be fulfilled concerning Jerusalem

Now consider this - Daniel 2:36-45

Therefore based on the entire revelation from the Prophet Daniel, we have been given the complete 1st and 2nd Advents of LJC.

Conclusion: Certain Prophecy, as in Daniel(Jerusalem) will repeat until all things are fulfilled = Zechariah ch14, Matt ch24, Revelation

Peace and have a Great Day

Agreed. I'm not a Preterist, nor a Partial Preterist. I believe that the Olivet Discourse centered on the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, just as earlier biblical prophecies had focused on either the Assyrian or Babylonian captivity. However, after Jesus' earthly ministry we have the beginning of the Last Days.

So the Olivet Discourse speaks of the end of the age, along with its prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem. Also, Daniel prophesies not just of Antiochus 4 and the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, but also of the Antichrist at the end of the age. We just have to divide each prophecy properly the best we can.

 

[dad]

no, that is thought to be the possible period of time of his ministry. the Gospels do not appear to give Jesus' ministry a very long period of time.

So the prophesy if interpreted as you prefer would be useless in having people know that Jesus was here at a certain time. OK.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So the prophesy if interpreted as you prefer would be useless in having people know that Jesus was here at a certain time. OK.

That's what you surmise--not me. The prophecy, on its face, suggests what many experts feel fits the ministry of Christ. It isn't proof of anything about Jesus--just a prophecy about when he would come, what he would do, and what would happen to him and to Israel. And this fits the claimed facts of history.

 

[Keraz]

Since He is revealed before the wrath it is not talking about it as was pointed out. Your calling correction an accusation is wrong.

Your opinionated and unsupported replies are worthless.
I agree with the OP; people should not listen to the easy way out of the rapture believers. They won't be ready to stand firm in their faith when disaster strikes. Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:12-17

 

[Ezra]

Paul addressed the Pretribulation Rapture teachers in 2Th 2:1-5. When someone told the Thessalonians the rapture was at hand or could happen at any moment, the Thessalonians became confused about what Paul taught them. The fellow who said this was a Pretribulation Rapture teacher because when he said the rapture could happen at any moment the Antichrist had not yet emerged on the scene. In other words, he was teaching the rapture occurs before the Antichrist rises to power. In order for the Thessalonians to become confused about what Paul taught them they must have esteemed the Pretribulation Rapture teacher as Pastors are esteemed by believers today; otherwise the believers would not have taken him seriously. When Paul heard about this he wrote the letter recorded in 2Th. 2:1-5 and told the Thessalonians not to listen to the Pretribulation Rapture teacher because the rapture or our gathering to the Lord does not occur until after the the falling away and after the Antichrist seats himself in Jerusalem displaying himself as God. The scriptures tell us the Antichrist doesn’t seat himself in Jerusalem until 3 1/2 years after he emerges on the scene.

2Th. 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

your twisting the word to make it say what YOU want it to say. even though i favor pre trib.. but none of the theories pre mid or after is listed. it say be ready no man knows the hour or day.

 

[David in NJ]

1 peter 4:12 is not related to the end time. Claiming that it is shows you have not the ability to discern what is what regarding the Tribulation period.

Marriage? Rewarding them finally? Having eternal bodies like His as we were promised? Being where He is in His Father's house as promised...etc


Again, not connected to the Rapture. Of course He is with us until He comes to get us! He also will be with the new believers, the tribulation saints until either they die or He returns TO the earth at the end of the Tribulation period.


Is is our trip out to be there with Him where He is. When He returns to earth He lands and sets foot here.

That makes three strikes for you. 3 verses unconnected to the issue.

There is only one Second Coming of Christ as spoken in = OT Daniel, Zechariah, Gospel, Apostles, Revelation

His Coming in the clouds to gather the Elect is His Second Coming.
This is how the Resurrection takes place followed by the rapture = 1 Thess 4:13-18, 2 Thess ch2, 1 Cor ch15, Gospel, Daniel

You need to post your 'pre-trib rapture' scripture where Christ has more then one Second Coming.

Otherwise, whether you believe it or not, you are speaking lies against God's words and you do not want to be held liable for that.

 

[dad]

That's what you surmise--not me. The prophecy, on its face, suggests what many experts feel fits the ministry of Christ. It isn't proof of anything about Jesus--just a prophecy about when he would come, what he would do, and what would happen to him and to Israel. And this fits the claimed facts of history.

So those who claim the 3.5 years of His ministry is the fulfillment of Dan 9 are talking through their hat. OK

 

[dad]

Your opinionated and unsupported replies are worthless.

Since we are not appointed to the wrath in the end, any denial is worthless.

I agree with the OP; people should not listen to the easy way out of the rapture believers. They won't be ready to stand firm in their faith when disaster strikes. Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:12-17

Just because Jesus promises to take us out before the time of trouble unlike any other in history does not mean it is the easy way out. It is His way out. The only way out. The plan. The rescue. The hope of ages. A great comfort to believers. We no more need to stand firm in the wrath of God than we need to hire a helicopter to go up in the air to meet Jesus.

 

[dad]

There is only one Second Coming of Christ as spoken in = OT Daniel, Zechariah, Gospel, Apostles, Revelation

Says who? The second coming return to earth is one event. The coming to gather the dead and living believers to be with Him is another event. There is no fusing the two. Those who try to weld them together inside their heads have a confused blob of misunderstanding and jumbled screws loose there as a result.

His Coming in the clouds to gather the Elect is His Second Coming.

No. He does not come to earth then and no verse in the bible says He does.

This is how the Resurrection takes place followed by the rapture = 1 Thess 4:13-18, 2 Thess ch2, 1 Cor ch15, Gospel, Daniel

You need to post your 'pre-trib rapture' scripture where Christ has more then one Second Coming.

Otherwise, whether you believe it or not, you are speaking lies against God's words and you do not want to be held liable for that.

Your confused mess of a theory, glued together by inapplicable and off target scriptures shows nothing but your lack of understanding. The term second coming is found where in the bible? Chapter and verse? The place where the gathering of believers in the air is called the second coming where? Jesus comes down to the earth when He calls us UP, in what part of the verse? etc etc etc.

 

[ewq1938]

We don't really know when he will arrive except that he defeats 3 European leaders, assuming control over a 10 nation, 7 leader, confederation.

In the newest of all the end times prophecies, there is no such event where 3 kings/leaders are defeated or overthrown. In Rev, all ten horns remain intact through the entire period until the entire beast is destroyed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So those who claim the 3.5 years of His ministry is the fulfillment of Dan 9 are talking through their hat. OK

You draw some pretty strange conclusions. No, I didn't say that, and no, you can't conclude that. As I said, the prophecy indicates the general time at which Christ would come, which was 483 Weeks of Years after the decree of King Artaxerxes (457 BC). This is one possible scenario, based on Ezra 7, I believe. This would take us approx. to the year 26 AD, which is approx. the time when Jesus began his ministry.

The prophecy also indicates that Christ would be cut off, which is precisely what happened to Jesus when executed by the Romans. And the prophecy also indicates an "Abomination of Desolation" would lead to the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple soon after, which is precisely what Jesus said would happen in the Olivet Discourse. The pagan Roman Army, an "abomination," arrived to destroy Jerusalem due to a Jewish insurrection.

The fact the "70th Week" witnesses the termination of offering in the midst of a 7 year period indicates that a major Messianic event takes place at that time, when we already know he was to be "cut off," or killed. So my conclusion is that Jesus' ministry was approx. 3.5 years after which he was "cut off." This is the time many scholars believe that Jesus lived and died.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In the newest of all the end times prophecies, there is no such event where 3 kings/leaders are defeated or overthrown. In Rev, all ten horns remain intact through the entire period until the entire beast is destroyed.

The 10 horns of Revelation originate from the 10 horns of Dan 7. They are 10 kingdoms, or in modern parlance, 10 states. The fact 3 kings are defeated by the Little Horn indicates that 7 leaders of these 10 states remain intact while 3 leaders are defeated and removed by the Little Horn. The net effect is that Antichrist rules over 7 leaders and 10 states. This is purely an assumption I make, based on my own personal interpretation. I'm not dogmatic about it.