PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[dad]

True statement. But where you apply that wrath and where others do is the issue.

I do not apply His wrath. He does.

Jacob's trouble has to do with the Israel of God. Not physical Israel which was delt with in 70 AD.

That is your personal doctrine and interpretation. The whole end time centers around Israel and Jerusalem and Jews! The 144,000 witness, Israel invaded, most of them killed etc etc etc. Not sure what phantom or spirit Israel you have in mind. The church is gone by the wrath of God.

That day" points to the future, and thus, even apart from other reasons, excludes the supposition that it is the day of the destruction of Jerusalem that is meant. The words "that day is great" refer to Joel 2:11, and "there is none like it" is an imitation of Joel 2:2; in the latter passage the prophet makes use of a judgment which he had seen passed on Judah - its devastation by locusts - and for the first time presents, as the main element in his prophecy, the idea of the great day of judgment to come on all nations, and by which the Lord will perfect His kingdom on this earth. This day is for Jacob also, i.e., for all Israel, a time of distress; for the judgment falls not merely on the heathen nations, but also on the godless members of the covenant people, that they may be destroyed from among the congregation of the Lord. The judgment is therefore for Israel as well as for other nations a critical juncture, from which the Israel of God, the community of the faithful, will be delivered

The end time prophesies are many and detailed and center around Israel. They are not hard to pinpoint either. There are key events such as the great shaking etc that mark that time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. Those folks go up in the air to be with Him. When we die our spirit goes to be with God. Our dead bodies don't. The time when the dead bodies rise up in the air is the same time our live bodies rise up and we all go to be with Jesus. Later, we return to earth with Him from heaven in our new immortal bodies to rule here with Him for 1000 years.

You didn't read his post very carefully. When it talks about saints coming with Jesus it's talking about their spirits and souls which are currently with Him in heaven. That is what 1 Thess 4:14 is talking about. They will unite with their resurrected and changed bodies and meet Him "in the air" along with those who are still alive at that point.

 

[dad]

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium, this being false in deception

In your head maybe.

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

Except, no He didn't you made that up

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be God-Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So in the end time, after the Rapture in particular, many will claim Jesus is here somewhere. That is a warning. Obviously it will be a lie. No connection to the issues at hand here. Focus.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course they don't. Jesus does not descend at the rapture either. We ascend!

Both will happen. Have you never actually read this?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[dad]

You didn't read his post very carefully. When it talks about saints coming with Jesus it's talking about their spirits and souls which are currently with Him in heaven. That is what 1 Thess 4:14 is talking about. They will unite with their resurrected and changed bodies and meet Him "in the air" along with those who are still alive at that point.

I agree. It took awhile to focus on what the poster was saying and I said what you said later. Tks

 

[dad]

Both will happen. Have you never actually read this?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yes. Is there some point about it you want to make? Hopefully you didn't think He came right down to the earth when He descended from heaven?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree. It took awhile to focus on what the poster was saying and I said what you said later. Tks

Okay. I just started browsing through this thread, so I haven't read many of the posts yet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes. Is there some point about it you want to make?

Not other than the point that you saying that He doesn't descend at the rapture is false. You could see the part of the passage that I bolded and underlined, right? Did I really need to spell out the point I was making when the part I highlighted clearly contradicts what you said?

Hopefully you didn't think He came right down to the earth when He descended from heaven?

Never said that. If that's what you meant then that's what you should say. Don't expect people to read your mind.

But, if you think He takes us to heaven after that then tell me why we meet Him in the air. Why not just meet Him in heaven?

 

[dad]

Not other than the point that you saying that He doesn't descend at the rapture is false. You could see the part of the passage that I bolded and underlined, right? Did I really need to spell out the point I was making when the part I highlighted clearly contradicts what you said?

Ok so you are claiming that somehow Jesus plops down on earth while all believers go into the air. That makes no sense and does not fit any prophesy about the end time. Notice the bible says we will be where He is? If we go UP in the air, does that not tell you something?

But, if you think He takes us to heaven after that then tell me why we meet Him in the air. Why not just meet Him in heaven?

We go to be where He is. Is He not in heaven? (His Father's house)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok so you are claiming that somehow Jesus plops down on earth while all believers go into the air.

Where did I claim that? Please do not make assumptions about what I believe. I am not a post-trib premil. I am an Amillennialist. Do you know what Amillennialists believe? We don't believe that we're taken to heaven after meeting Him in the air, but we also don't believe we're taken to the earth (or that Jesus "plops down on earth") at that point. We believe He destroys all His enemies and burns up the earth (2 Peter 3:10-12) and then the judgment takes place somewhere. If you read Revelation 20:11 then you can see that it does not take place in heaven or on earth as we know it.

That makes no sense and does not fit any prophesy about the end time.

I agree that this straw man doctrine that you have just invented does not fit any prophecy. Good thing NO ONE believes it.

Notice the bible says we will be where He is? If we go UP in the air, does that not tell you something?

Yes, it tells me we will be with Him in the air at that point because that is where He will be after formerly being in heaven.

We go to be where He is. Is He not in heaven? (His Father's house)

He is now, but at that point He will be "in the air". I feel like I have to spell everything out to you. Please pray for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[dad]

Where did I claim that? Please do not make assumptions about what I believe. I am not a post-trib premil. I am an Amillennialist. Do you know what Amillennialists believe?

No

We don't believe that we're taken to heaven after meeting Him in the air, but we also don't believe we're taken to the earth (or that Jesus "plops down on earth") at that point. We believe He destroys all His enemies and burns up the earth (2 Peter 3:10-12) and then the judgment takes place somewhere. If you read Revelation 20:11 then you can see that it does not take place in heaven or on earth as we know it.

He judges after He returns TO earth. Not when we go to meet Him in the air. The months and days during the tribulation till the end are known. When the Rapture will happen is NOT known. Different events.

Yes, it tells me we will be with Him in the air at that point because that is where He will be after formerly being in heaven.

Not sure when you think that is. Since you conflate the Rapture with the return to earth of Christ you need to be more specific.

He is now, but at that point He will be "in the air". I feel like I have to spell everything out to you. Please pray for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

Pretending you know what you are talking about stops working after you have made a number of posts. As stated you confuse the two events so when you say 'at that point' it is meaningless.

 

[David in NJ]

Of course they don't. Jesus does not descend at the rapture either. We ascend! And since the bodies of the believers are rasised to the air, any saints who may be with Jesus in the air could not have their bodies raised yet. We shall be like Him. It seems to me that whhen we die and go to be with Him our bodies are still here and therefore not raised from the dead yet.

Great, and they get a new complete eternal body like Jesus also then. Remember Jesus was bodily raised from the dead?

Forget third. I expect to commute when ruling the earth with Him from New Jerusalem!

There is much that we agree on Scripture.

However, this is where you drift away from the Word = You say: "Jesus does not descend at the rapture either."

This is not truthful for the Scripture cannot lie: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 = JESUS DESCENDS from Heaven

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No

You should educate yourself about what other people believe in regards to eschatology so that you don't make yourself look bad by misrepresenting what others believe because of assumptions that you're making.

He judges after He returns TO earth.

Where does scripture teach this? You don't have scripture on your side here.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Not when we go to meet Him in the air. The months and days during the tribulation till the end are known. When the Rapture will happen is NOT known. Different events.

You are just making claims without backing them up with scripture. That is pointless.

Not sure when you think that is. Since you conflate the Rapture with the return to earth of Christ you need to be more specific.

You are not even reading what I'm saying. I do not believe that He will come down all the way to earth, but I also don't believe He goes to heaven. If you just read Revelation 20:11 you can see that the judgment, which will take place when He returns (see Matthew 25:31-46) takes place neither in heaven nor on earth.

Pretending you know what you are talking about stops working after you have made a number of posts. As stated you confuse the two events so when you say 'at that point' it is meaningless.

I am backing up my claims with scripture. You are not. So, who is the one pretending he knows what he is talking about? That would be you. Since you don't provide any scripture to back up your claims I'm left with no choice but to conclude that your views come from your imagination rather than from scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is much that we agree on Scripture.

However, this is where you drift away from the Word = You say: "Jesus does not descend at the rapture either."

This is not truthful for the Scripture cannot lie: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 = JESUS DESCENDS from Heaven

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Yeah, I pointed this out to him already, but then he clarified that he was saying that Jesus doesn't descend to the earth at the rapture. So, he was not careful to be clear about what he was saying. Which is a common problem on this forum.

 

[dad]

There is much that we agree on Scripture.

However, this is where you drift away from the Word = You say: "Jesus does not descend at the rapture either."

Not the the earth! Bet the farm on that one.

This is not truthful for the Scripture cannot lie: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 = JESUS DESCENDS from Heaven

Not ALL the way to earth! Just to the air above where we meet Him.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

yes where heaven is that place beyond where the stars are, He will come all the way down over the little heavens over this planet! There we meet Jesus and then return to His Father's house!

 

[dad]

You should educate yourself about what other people believe in regards to eschatology so that you don't make yourself look bad by misrepresenting what others believe because of assumptions that you're making.

It is not so much what you believe or debate that is the issue. Only the religious terms you use for it that are not in the bible. Just be clear.

Where does scripture teach this? You don't have scripture on your side here.

Do to!

3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

That is after the 1000 years after He returns. What about it?

You are not even reading what I'm saying. I do not believe that He will come down all the way to earth, but I also don't believe He goes to heaven. If you just read Revelation 20:11 you can see that the judgment, which will take place when He returns (see Matthew 25:31-46) takes place neither in heaven nor on earth.

Great believe whatever you like. It does not say He sets down on earth when we meet Him in the air. Period.

I am backing up my claims with scripture.

Cut the humor. You have not even started to make a case and seem to struggle with even having a clear position.

You are not. So, who is the one pretending he knows what he is talking about? That would be you.

Not guilty. If someone claims Jesus at the Rapture was coming to land on earth, they would be pretending to have a clue.

 

[David in NJ]

Not the the earth! Bet the farm on that one.


Not ALL the way to earth! Just to the air above where we meet Him.

yes where heaven is that place beyond where the stars are, He will come all the way down over the little heavens over this planet! There we meet Jesus and then return to His Father's house!

He leaves Heaven and comes to earth in the clouds - just as HE left.

Acts ch1
After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight. 10They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

There is no return to Heaven with the Saints.

 

[dad]

He leaves Heaven and comes to earth in the clouds - just as HE left.

When He returns TO the earth after the Tribulation. Not when He raises the believers of all ages. You won't be able to support that claim.

 

[David in NJ]

When He returns TO the earth after the Tribulation. Not when He raises the believers of all ages. You won't be able to support that claim.

1 Thess & 2 Thess and 1 Corinthians ch15 and Matt ch24 and 1 John ch2 & ch3 and Revelation all AGREE with "that claim".

The OT Prophets also AGREE with "that claim".

There is not a single pre-trib rapture declaration or prophecy in all of Scripture - from Genesis to Revelation

 

[dad]

1 Thess & 2 Thess and 1 Corinthians ch15 and Matt ch24 and 1 John ch2 & ch3 and Revelation all AGREE with "that claim".

The OT Prophets also AGREE with "that claim".

There is not a single pre-trib rapture declaration or prophecy in all of Scripture - from Genesis to Revelation

Not in any way is that even related to a shadow of the truth. Spamming verses does not help your position. They just show you don't understand them.