22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

You cannot have all time ending when the final trumpet sounds when Satan is still given a little season of time. I agree the days (plural) of the seventh trumpet sounding shall be of great climatic, intensified persecution upon Christ and Christians, because that's when Satan shall have his freedom for a time. My point for repeating what I believe I have rightly understood from Scripture is that Amils err when saying ALL time shall be no longer when the seventh angel begins to sound. I believe I have given a sound biblical argument for why it is only time for bringing the Gospel of salvation that is finished, because then the Kingdom of God is complete. IOW when the seventh trumpet begins to sound there will be no more saved, no more Gospel preached, the church on earth will appear to be dead, spiritually without light or life during this little season given to Satan. The coming of Christ will be visibly seen after Satan has his little season, and his final destruction will indeed be the greatest climactic event the world shall ever know.

I do not agree. You are taking one Scripture and placing a meaning upon it that carries zero corroboration elsewhere in the Word. This is a classic Premil mistake. There is a difference between "the days of the voice of the seventh angel" which refer to his assignment and when he actually makes his climactic trumpet blast to introduce Christ. You confuse these two.

You never actually addressed my argument. You transpired to just repeat what you believed.

 

[WPM]

You cannot have all time ending when the final trumpet sounds when Satan is still given a little season of time. I agree the days (plural) of the seventh trumpet sounding shall be of great climatic, intensified persecution upon Christ and Christians, because that's when Satan shall have his freedom for a time. My point for repeating what I believe I have rightly understood from Scripture is that Amils err when saying ALL time shall be no longer when the seventh angel begins to sound. I believe I have given a sound biblical argument for why it is only time for bringing the Gospel of salvation that is finished, because then the Kingdom of God is complete. IOW when the seventh trumpet begins to sound there will be no more saved, no more Gospel preached, the church on earth will appear to be dead, spiritually without light or life during this little season given to Satan. The coming of Christ will be visibly seen after Satan has his little season, and his final destruction will indeed be the greatest climactic event the world shall ever know.

You cannot seem to see that “the days of the voice of the seventh angel” do not need to be synonymous with an actual trumpet blast, that various other Scripture clearly and repeatedly attributes to Jesus actual appearing. The blast occurs in “the days of the voice of the seventh angel” but is not synonymous with “the days of the voice of the seventh angel.” I am not sure why this is so difficult to grasp.

When someone comes up with a brand new revelation that no one else promotes, one has to be wary. Who else teaches what you do? This is a fair question. Why only you?

Revelation 10:7 instructs: “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, [Gr. mellō salpizō or intend to sound a blast] the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They represent spiritual wickedness under the power of their king. Not fallen angels, but the demonic hosts.

Please explain what you mean by this. What are "demonic hosts" and how do they differ from fallen angels? You agreed that Abaddon/Apollyon is Satan, right? Who else is he king over except for the other fallen angels (Rev 12:9, Matt 25:41)?

Their king cannot be released until a thousand years (symbolizing specifically time from Christ's first coming and the sounding of the seventh trumpet) have expired, because He is bound there until the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete.

I believe the thousand years expires at the fifth trumpet. You don't have Satan's little season even starting until the seventh angel sounds while I have Satan's little season ending when the seventh angel sounds. So, our understanding of what Satan's little season entails and how long it might last obviously differs.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You cannot seem to see that “the days of the voice of the seventh angel” do not need to be synonymous with an actual trumpet blast, that various other Scripture clearly and repeatedly attributes to Jesus actual appearing. The blast occurs in “the days of the voice of the seventh angel” but is not synonymous with“the days of the voice of the seventh angel.” I am not sure why this is so difficult to grasp.

When someone comes up with a brand new revelation that no one else promotes, one has to be wary. Who else teaches what you do? This is a fair question. Why only you?

Revelation 10:7 instructs: “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, [Gr. mellō salpizō or intend to sound a blast] the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

I think that translation of the verse is unfortunate because it can be misleading. It's talking about the days leading up to the sounding of the seventh trumpet, but it doesn't come across that way in that translation.

Here are a couple translations of the verse that give a better indication of what it's actually saying:

Revelation 10:7 (NIV): But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Revelation 10:7 (NASB): but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He announced to His servants the prophets.

In these translations it makes it clear that it's talking about the days before the seventh angel sounds because it's talking in terms of days that are occurring as the seventh angel is getting ready to (is about to) sound his trumpet rather than days that occur after he starts sounding his trumpet.

 

[rwb]

No, it isn't. Based on what you've been saying, you do not agree with what I said. So, maybe I didn't explain clearly enough this time? Anyway, we're just not understanding each other on this, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I was saying that I agree with what you said. IOW you presented my understanding pretty well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

More petty arguments. More evasive posts. You obviously have nothing on the true Faith. The Bible constantly talks about faith in Christ. Buy a Bible and read the NT. It describes Jesus as "Lord" and "Savior." Sorry you reject that. Sorry that He is not personal to you.

Sorry He is a distant unfaithful god with a big stick looking the first opportunity to cast men into purgatory. Sad that he is one strike and your out. Sad that the Bible is not enough for you and that you need to add to it! Sorry you are deluded that faith in Christ is not sufficient for salvation.

I do not use the term “once saved, always saved.” I do not use the term "Altar Calls." I reject the "Pre-Trib Rapture." I see "predestinate" (Romans 8:29, 30), "election" (Romans 9:11, 11:5, 7, 28, 1 Thessalonians 1:4, and 2 Peter 1:10), “elect” ( Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9, 22, Matthew 24:22, 24, 31, Mark 13:20, 22, 27, 18:7, Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, 2 Tim 5:21, 2 Tim 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:6, 2 John 1:1, and 13), “eternal life” (Matthew 19:16, Mark 10:17, 30, Luke 10:25, 18:18, John 3:15, 5:39, 6:54, 68, 10:28, 17:2, Acts 13:48, Romans 2:7, 5:21, 6:23, 1 Tim 6:12, 19, Titus 1:2, 3:7, 1 John 1:2, 2:25, 3:15, 5:11, 13, 20, and Jude 1:21), “life eternal” (Matthew 25:46, John 4:36, 12:25, and 17:3), “everlasting life” (Daniel 12:2, Matthew 19:29, John 3:16, 36, 4:14, 5:24, 6:27, 40, 47, Acts 13:46, Romans 6:22), “everlasting salvation" (Isaiah 45:17), "eternal salvation" (Hebrews 5:9), "eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12), "eternal inheritance" (Hebrews 9:16) and "everlasting consolation" (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17) in the Bible. These are all biblical terms that Romanism hates. It exposes their false salvation and their manipulation of the people with their false gospel.

The word Bible (biblos) is found throughout the New Testament. In fact, there are 16 references (Matthew 1:1, Mark 12:26, Luke 3:4, 20:42, Acts 1:20, 7:42, Philippians 4:3, Revelation 3:5, 17:8 (X2), 20:12 (X2), 20:15, 22:19 (X2).

It would help if you actually read the Bible before running off your mouth.

Unfortunately, Catholics are not encouraged to read their Bibles. They expect their priests to teach them what the Bible says as if those pedophiles know anything about the Bible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was saying that I agree with what you said. IOW you presented my understanding pretty well.

But, other things you have said are not in agreement with what I said (I was giving my understanding of things), so I either didn't explain myself clearly or you didn't understand what I was saying. I'm not sure which.

 

[rwb]

I do not agree. You are taking one Scripture and placing a meaning upon it that carries zero corroboration elsewhere in the Word. This is a classic Premil mistake. There is a difference between "the days of the voice of the seventh angel" which refer to his assignment and when he actually makes his climactic trumpet blast to introduce Christ. You confuse these two.

You never actually addressed my argument. You transpired to just repeat what you believed.

But you have not been able to adequately or even biblically explain why I have misunderstood. I believe my replies have addressed your argument with you believing that ALL time ends in the days of the sounding of the seventh trumpet. I don't even disagree with ALL time coming to an end, but I place the very end of ALL time AFTER Satan's little season, not when the seventh angel begins to sound when only the particular time symbolized a thousand years ends. There is no reason to continue to have time for bringing the Gospel unto all the world once the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[rwb]

You cannot seem to see that “the days of the voice of the seventh angel” do not need to be synonymous with an actual trumpet blast, that various other Scripture clearly and repeatedly attributes to Jesus actual appearing. The blast occurs in “the days of the voice of the seventh angel” but is not synonymous with“the days of the voice of the seventh angel.” I am not sure why this is so difficult to grasp.

When someone comes up with a brand new revelation that no one else promotes, one has to be wary. Who else teaches what you do? This is a fair question. Why only you?

Revelation 10:7 instructs: “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, [Gr. mellō salpizō or intend to sound a blast] the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

I seem to really have some Amils up in the air over this difference of opinion of the seventh angel sounding. I don't deny the last trumpet ushers in the final days of human history when Christ shall return. Perhaps, being a Pastor, you cannot fathom a point in time when the Gospel has finished its work on earth, and the Kingdom of God complete??? I don't believe I have come up with a brand-new revelation. I've simply pointed out the inconsistency with Amils when it comes to the final days, when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. The sound of the trumpet covers days (plural) as do all the other trumpets. But these days are specifically (1) the end of proclaiming the Gospel unto all the earth, (2) as well as the little season given Satan, and (3) finally the climatic return of Christ.

 

[rwb]

Please explain what you mean by this. What are "demonic hosts" and how do they differ from fallen angels? You agreed that Abaddon/Apollyon is Satan, right? Who else is he king over except for the other fallen angels (Rev 12:9, Matt 25:41)?


I believe the thousand years expires at the fifth trumpet. You don't have Satan's little season even starting until the seventh angel sounds while I have Satan's little season ending when the seventh angel sounds. So, our understanding of what Satan's little season entails and how long it might last obviously differs.

If the thousand years expire after the fifth trumpet why does John write the thousand years is time the faithful live and reign with Christ before Satan is loosed?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, it's not merely ONE thousand years of time. But it is time symbolically written as that which began with the first advent of Christ and will end in the days when the seventh angel begins to sound. No, the trumpet sounding of the seventh angel does not mention the thousand years. It does however mention the mystery of God He hath declared to His prophets is finished. Since the mystery made known is that Gentiles of faith would be saved with Jews of faith to complete the Kingdom of God. That means the time that should be no longer is the time, symbolically written a thousand years will have expired. That means that after the Kingdom of God is complete, then Satan will be set free to continue in what he has been doing through his minions all along. It seems the main purpose for allowing Satan this "little season" of freedom is for his and his followers utter destruction, which all the world will witness on the last day of human history on this earth.

What you said here is very confusing to me. You said "Satan will be set free to continue in what he has been doing through his minions all along". I completely disagree with this. What is the point of Satan being bound if him being loosed doesn't change anything from what he has already been doing? I can't make any sense of that at all. No, it's clear to me that he is bound from doing something during the thousand years and then is set free to do what he was bound from doing before for a little season. What he has been bound from doing is preventing the light of the gospel from spreading throughout the world.

Do you not see passages like the following as being related to Satan's binding?

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Acts 26:14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ “ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

In this New Testament era Satan has not been able to keep the world in spiritual darkness the way he was able to do before Christ came and before the gospel started spreading throughout the world.

But, a time is coming (if it hasn't already started) when the gospel message will be largely silenced and false teachings will run rampant. I believe Paul wrote about that time here:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Paul wrote here about a time when a mass falling away from the faith would occur. And he indicated it would be a time during which wickedness would no longer be restrained. What has been restraining it? The preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul indicated that all of this would be "after the working of Satan", so it shows that Satan is able to do something during this time that he was not able to do before. I believe this time during which wickedness increases and a mass falling away occurs before the return of Christ is Satan's little season.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If the thousand years expire after the fifth trumpet why does John write the thousand years is time the faithful live and reign with Christ before Satan is loosed?

I don't understand your question and why you are asking it. Can you clarify what you are asking and why?

 

[rwb]

But, other things you have said are not in agreement with what I said (I was giving my understanding of things), so I either didn't explain myself clearly or you didn't understand what I was saying. I'm not sure which.

I don't guess it really matters SI, since you've said, and I reluntantly agree that it would perhaps be better to agree to disagree regrading the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

 

[WPM]

I think that translation of the verse is unfortunate because it can be misleading. It's talking about the days leading up to the sounding of the seventh trumpet, but it doesn't come across that way in that translation.

Here are a couple translations of the verse that give a better indication of what it's actually saying:

Revelation 10:7 (NIV): But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Revelation 10:7 (NASB): but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He announced to His servants the prophets.

In these translations it makes it clear that it's talking about the days before the seventh angel sounds because it's talking in terms of days that are occurring as the seventh angel is getting ready to (is about to) sound his trumpet rather than days that occur after he starts sounding his trumpet.

Totally agree bro. You are spot on.

Revelation 10:7 instructs: “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, [Gr. mellō salpizō or intend or about to sound a blast] the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

 

[WPM]

I seem to really have some Amils up in the air over this difference of opinion of the seventh angel sounding. I don't deny the last trumpet ushers in the final days of human history when Christ shall return. Perhaps, being a Pastor, you cannot fathom a point in time when the Gospel has finished its work on earth, and the Kingdom of God complete??? I don't believe I have come up with a brand-new revelation. I've simply pointed out the inconsistency with Amils when it comes to the final days, when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. The sound of the trumpet covers days (plural) as do all the other trumpets. But these days are specifically (1) the end of proclaiming the Gospel unto all the earth, (2) as well as the little season given Satan, and (3) finally the climatic return of Christ.

So, can you furnish me with another solid Amil writer/teacher who promotes this? Or, are you the only one God has given this special revelation to? This is what Tim does all the time and we hit him hard for it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I seem to really have some Amils up in the air over this difference of opinion of the seventh angel sounding.

I'm not upset about our disagreement at all, just to be clear. I'm just confused by your particular Amil view as it relates to the timing of the thousand years in relation to Satan's little season. I have never seen anyone who interprets these things the way you do. Have you? If not, does that not concern you? We have a number of people on this forum who have beliefs that no one else has. Does God reveal things to only one person? Of course not, right? So, why does no one else agree with you on this particular thing that we're discussing?

I don't deny the last trumpet ushers in the final days of human history when Christ shall return. Perhaps, being a Pastor, you cannot fathom a point in time when the Gospel has finished its work on earth, and the Kingdom of God complete??? I don't believe I have come up with a brand-new revelation. I've simply pointed out the inconsistency with Amils when it comes to the final days, when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. The sound of the trumpet covers days (plural) as do all the other trumpets.

That's where we disagree. The sounding of the seventh trumpet does not cover multiple days. Look at 1 Cor 15:51-52 and Revelation 11:15-18. Here are the things that are said to occur once the seventh and last trumpet sounds:

* The dead in Christ are resurrected
* The bodies of all of the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are still alive are changed to be immortal
* "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah
* God's wrath has come which will result in destroying those who destroy the earth
* The time has come for judging the dead
* The time has come for rewarding God's servants

That's it. Where does Satan's little season fit in here? Nowhere that I can see. How long will each of these things take? If the amount of time it will take for our bodies to be changed (a moment in time) is any indication, then these things will all happen quickly. So, again, where does Satan's little season fit in here?

But these days are specifically (1) the end of proclaiming the Gospel unto all the earth, (2) as well as the little season given Satan, and (3) finally the climatic return of Christ.

You're talking about the days preceding the sounding of the seventh trumpet and not days that occur while the seventh trumpet is sounding. That's where I believe you are mistaken.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, can you furnish me with another solid Amil writer/teacher who promotes this? Or, are you the only one God has given this special revelation to? This is what Tim does all the time and we hit him hard for it.

I am wondering about this as well. Several others besides Tim here have unique views all to themselves and seem to think they have special revelation from God as well, such as Taken, The Light, Truth7t7 and Keraz. I would not want to be lumped in with that group.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't guess it really matters SI, since you've said, and I reluntantly agree that it would perhaps be better to agree to disagree regrading the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

We can continue discussing it respectfully if you want, but if we continue to not be able to even understand what the other is saying then it becomes fruitless and we might as well agree to disagree at that point. In post #8051 I tried to explain my understanding of Satan's little season more fully, so I'd be curious to know your thoughts on what I said there.

 

[rwb]

What you said here is very confusing to me. You said "Satan will be set free to continue in what he has been doing through his minions all along". I completely disagree with this. What is the point of Satan being bound if him being loosed doesn't change anything from what he has already been doing? I can't make any sense of that at all. No, it's clear to me that he is bound from doing something during the thousand years and then is set free to do what he was bound from doing before for a little season. What he has been bound from doing is preventing the light of the gospel from spreading throughout the world.

Prior to the advent of Christ and Satan being bound he was free to hold in fear of bondage to death all the Gentile nations of the earth. The only nation having heard the good news of the Messiah who would come to redeem them from death was Israel. By His shed blood and resurrection Christ defeated Satan. Now the Gospel, that was only according to Covenant promise, spoken through the prophets of old, would be sent unto Gentiles. And through the Gentiles of faith being added to Jews of faith the spiritual Kingdom of God would be built.

Before Christ came, Satan had the ability to take away the Word sown in the hearts of people so they would not believe. Satan also had the ability to hold people in bondage to fear of death, but this power was broken by Christ. But that does not mean after being bound Satan was altogether prevented from holding people in fear of death, but since the victory of Christ whoever hears the message of Christ and believes through the power of the Spirit know that Christ is ALIVE, and all who believe Him shall never die. Satan continues to hold all people remaining in unbelief in bondage to fear of death, this is what he continues to do through his minions, both spiritual and humans subdued by his power.

Yes, Satan was bound so the Kingdom of God could be complete, as you have well said, by his binding, but more importantly through Christ's cross and resurrection, Satan can no longer prevent the Gospel from penetrating the hearts of whoever hears and believes through the power of the Spirit.

The reason Satan is freed after the Kingdom of God is complete, or time, symbolized a thousand years has ended, is to gather together all who are under his power, both spiritual & human beings, it will of no doubt be a very climatic little season, but when Satan has assailed the Church on earth and surrounded believers, the whole world will witness the Almighty power of God as He sends down fire, and hail stones, and a great earthquake to destroy them all. Before the enemies of Christ and His Church on earth are destroyed Christ will be seen in the clouds and the saints will be caught up to immortality and incorruption to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

Matthew 13:19 (KJV) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

[WPM]

John cannot write that ALL of time shall end when the seventh angel begins to sound. Because that would mean time that is symbolically written a thousand years expires. But when this time symbolically written a thousand years expires, Satan is loosed for a little season of TIME. All of time cannot end, but there still be a little season of time on earth given Satan.

Here is the elephant in the room for your belief. You keep stating this as if it is a fact, when it is not. It is your private opinion. You impose that upon the sacred text. You then build your opinion upon your opinion. That is not smart. Chronos in Scripture does not = 1000 years, it equals the time from the beginning to the end.