22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[BreadOfLife]

You were discussing purgatory, judgment, Protestantism, the Canon, et al. Why not Bellarmine?

The post YOU were responding to was about Purgatory.
If you've runt OUT of gas on the subject - just say so . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your arguments have not even got off the blocks. They are ridiculous. They are based on El Papas whims. Just like the papacy has recently changed their teaching on Limbo. You are obliged to do similar. This is a total joke. When the next Pope cancels purgatory you will then run with that. You have to. RCs cannot think for themselves. They are programmed to believe the opinions of their sinful pontiff.

ILOVE debating with the pathetically-ignorant.
It give me a chance to teach . . .

First of all, Einstein - the Pope didn't "change" any teaching on Limbo. This was never a matter of doctrine in the first place. It was simply a way of trying to reason the fate of unbaptized babies, since Scripture is SILENT on the matter.

Secondly - the Pope can't "change" the teaching on Purgatory. It IS a matter of doctrine and the Church doesn't change its doctrines - unlike EVERY Protestant denomination has.

Do your homework . . .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. Catholicism is such foolishness.

The concept of purgatory is a complete joke. Clearly unbiblical.

They think Mary was sinless? LOL. That is blasphemy. Only Jesus was without sin. To say that anyone else was is a lie from the pit of hell. Scripture teaches that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). That would include Mary. Is the book of Romans in the Satanic...I mean...Catholic Bible? Wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't. I guarantee that Mary herself is embarrassed by the nonsense that people believe about her.

And there's the pope. LOL. What a clown show believing in that nonsense. Successor of Peter? LOL. Why do they put him on a pedestal? I love Peter, but he was a mess a lot of the time. Denied Jesus 3 times. What in the world made people think they should put him on a pedestal and think that he had successors that should be put on a pedestal? Oh, they think he was The Rock that the church is built on. What a joke. No, Jesus is the Rock and Cornerstone that the church is built on with all of the apostles and prophets (not just Peter) as the foundation. Is Ephesians 2:19-22 in the Catholic Bible? Doesn't seem like they've ever read that.

All the pomp and circumstance surrounding the pope and all the other puffed up fake people out there pretending to be God's servants is ridiculous. They look like clowns with their ridiculous hats and outfits. Do they think they are fooling anyone with discernment with their arrogance out there on full display? God's servants are humble, not arrogant while expecting everyone to bow at their feet and praise them.

How about this one from the Satanic Catechism of the Catholic Church: CCC 100, “The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.”. LOL. Where did they come up with this nonsense? Certainly not from scripture. Scripture teaches that each of us can have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and each of us who believe in Him have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us to teach us the truth. We do not need some ridiculous Pope and ignorant bishops to interpret the Word of God for us when we have the Holy Spirit to do that for us. I guess 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 is also not in the Catholic Bible?

Believing that the sacraments are the actual body and blood of Christ. LOL!!! That might be the most ridiculous thing they believe of all, which is saying something. Jesus was obviously saying that the bread symbolized His body and the wine symbolized His blood, but this joke of a religious system teaches that it's His literal body and blood. Good grief. Pray for wisdom, please (James 1:5-7).

You have to be completely, and I mean completely, lacking in discernment to believe their false doctrines, of which I only mentioned a few here. I could go on all night listing them.

 

[St. SteVen]

WRONG.
EVERYBODY must go through Judgement – even those in Christ.

I agree. But this verse doesn't.
Not sure what to make of it.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[covenantee]

The post YOU were responding to was about Purgatory.
If you've runt OUT of gas on the subject - just say so . . .

The post I was responding to was about a Scriptural case.

So you're agreeing that there was no Scriptural case for Bellarmine's claims?

Thank God for the Reformation.

 

[St. SteVen]

It includes all of the Old Testament (we obviously don't all agree on what is included in that) and it included any of Paul's letters that he had written up to that point since Peter made it clear that even back then it was understood that Paul's letters were scripture.

2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Yes, thanks. I'm familiar with that view.
Do you agree that the NT writers were quoting the Septuagint? (accounts for misquotes) ???

This view also would carry with it that the Apostle Paul believed his own writings were inspired scripture.
When it seems that he only understood them to be letters to the churches?

And where do you draw the line?
Is God finished inspiring writings? Many claim a closed canon, inferring that inspiration is closed.
I hope those that believe that tore 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14 out of their Bibles.

 

[St. SteVen]

Well, the mere fact that the very Books that Jesus Himself studied from and considered "Scripture" are being referred to as "Satanic Books" on this form speaks VOLUMES about the many renegade opinions within Protestantism.

I would NOT want to be in the position of telling God that His Books are "Satanic . . ."

Yes, "Satanic" is quite harsh. (over-reactive)
That view may be fueled by the inerrancy doctrine. Only one source could fit that model. But which one?
Everything outside the "chosen" set would be demonized. (I suppose)
There are several canons as well. Which one is "right"?
Curious about your view on that. Thanks.

 

[Christian Gedge]

You have to be completely, and I mean completely, lacking in discernment to believe their false doctrines, of which I only mentioned a few here. I could go on all night listing them.

Not exactly damnable, but we must mention ’kissing the Pope’s toe.’

 

[WPM]

ILOVE debating with the pathetically-ignorant.
It give me a chance to teach . . .

First of all, Einstein - the Pope didn't "change" any teaching on Limbo. This was never a matter of doctrine in the first place. It was simply a way of trying to reason the fate of unbaptized babies, since Scripture is SILENT on the matter.

Secondly - the Pope can't "change" the teaching on Purgatory. It IS a matter of doctrine and the Church doesn't change its doctrines - unlike EVERY Protestant denomination has.

Do your homework . . .

Your "church" was deluded on that as it is on purgatory. It is the blind leading the blind. RCs must accept what they are taught. They cannot think for themselves.

Your crumbling edifice is built on deceit. Come out of her lest you catch her plagues.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree. But this verse doesn't.
Not sure what to make of it.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

This means that they will not be condemned or judged negatively.
The Greek woed (ἔρχεται) connotes condemnation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your "church" was deluded on that as it is on purgatory. It is the blind leading the blind. RCs must accept what they are taught. They cannot think for themselves.

Your crumbling edifice is built on deceit. Come out of her lest you catch her plagues.

In other words - you can't refute a SINGLE thing I said.
Good job, Einstein . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, "Satanic" is quite harsh. (over-reactive)
That view may be fueled by the inerrancy doctrine. Only one source could fit that model. But which one?
Everything outside the "chosen" set would be demonized. (I suppose)
There are several canons as well. Which one is "right"?
Curious about your view on that. Thanks.

The Canon of Scripture that we should follow is the one declared by the supreme earthly Authority, His Church (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

The NT Canon of Scripture that Protestants adhere to is the one declared by the Catholic church in 383AD at the Synod of Rome.

- 11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).
- 4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree. But this verse doesn't.
Not sure what to make of it.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

That's talking about believers not being condemned. Every person will be judged in the sense of giving an account of themselves (Romans 14:10-12), but only unbelievers will be condemned. I recommend that you seek out Hebrew and Greek resources like blueletterbible.org to help you see what the words in our English translations mean in the original languages.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not exactly damnable, but we must mention ’kissing the Pope’s toe.’

LOL. How could I forget that one?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, thanks. I'm familiar with that view.
Do you agree that the NT writers were quoting the Septuagint? (accounts for misquotes) ???

I don't know, I haven't looked into that in detail.

This view also would carry with it that the Apostle Paul believed his own writings were inspired scripture.
When it seems that he only understood them to be letters to the churches?

What are you basing this on? Why would Peter consider Paul's letters to be scripture while Paul himself did not? That doesn't make any sense.

And where do you draw the line?
Is God finished inspiring writings? Many claim a closed canon, inferring that inspiration is closed.
I hope those that believe that tore 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14 out of their Bibles.

What we have in scripture contains everything we need to know. After studying scripture for a long time, it's clear to me that it's not missing anything that we need to know. So, what basis is there for thinking there would ever be any more scripture to be written?

 

[rwb]

I'm sorry, but I could not understand anything you said here. It's okay. We agree on most things. But, I cannot make sense of your understanding of the thousand years and Satan's little season even though do agree that the thousand years started when Christ was resurrected (or thereabouts) and that Christ returns after Satan's little season.

Satan will not be set free for a little season until time symbolized a thousand years expires. After that Satan is given a little season, yes? I think you agreed that time symbolized a thousand years extends from the first advent of Christ until that time expires. Where do you place Satan's little season? Satan is bound during this time, and not set free until it expires, then the seventh angel begins to sound that time shall be no more. Where, before the seventh trumpet sounds do you find Satan's little season of time since he is not free until time expires? But remember time cannot expire completely until Satan has a little season?

Again, I believe that is talking about the days leading up to the sounding of the seventh trumpet, not days that follow the sounding of the seventh trumpet. Unfortunately, that is not evident when you read the KJV translation of that verse.

It's not only the KJV that translates the verse in this manner. Here are a few that I find faithful. The NIV is not among them.

Revelation 10:6-7 (YLT) and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages, who did create the heaven and the things in it, and the land and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it--that time shall not be yet, but in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when he may be about to sound, and the secret of God may be finished, as He did declare to His own servants, to the prophets.

Revelation 10:6-7 (WEB) and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as he declared to his servants, the prophets.

Revelation 10:6-7 (ASV) and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be delay no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then is finished they mystery of God, according to the good tidings which he declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 10:6-7 (Bish) And sware by hym that lyueth for euermore, which created heauen and the thynges that therin are, & the earth and the thinges that therin are, and the sea, and the thynges which therin are, that there shoulde be no longer tyme. But in the dayes of the voyce of the seuenth Angel, when he shall begyn to blowe, euen the misterie of God shalbe finished, as he declared to his seruautes the prophetes.

Satan loosed after the sounding of the seventh trumpet? I just don't understand that at all. The seventh trumpet will sound at the end of Satan's little season, not at the beginning. I'm honestly completely baffled by your interpretation of this.

Can you explain when Satan will have his little season, since he is not freed until time, symbolized a thousand years expire? Satan will not be given a little season until after the seventh angel begins to sound that time (I believe a thousand years) shall be no longer. How could he be given a little season before a thousand years of symbolic time expires, if he does not receive his little season until he is freed after a thousand years of symbolic time expires?

I hope I have explained the dilemma in a way you understand?

It signals the end of Satan's little season, not the beginning of it. Do you not understand that Christ returns at the seventh trumpet and the dead in Christ are raised at that time (1 Cor 15:22-23;51-52)? How can Satan's little season follow Christ's return and the resurrection of the dead in Christ?

The last trump cannot signal the end of Satan's little season, because John says he will not be given a little season until time, symbolized a thousand years expires. Yes, I understand that Christ returns with the sounding of the seventh trumpet. I also understand that believers are resurrected/raised on the last day of the days/time the seventh angel sounds, when we receive immortal & incorruptible bodies. Satan's little season in the days the seventh angel begins to sound because it cannot begin until time symbolized a thousand years expires.

And how long do you think that will take? It indicates that Gog and Magog symbolically represent people from "the four quarters of the earth" who number "as the sand of the sea". A little season for this to happen would not just be a few days, as it seems like you believe.

Being aware of the powers of Satan even while he is bound proves to me that the little season he shall have will be exactly that. The forces of evil under the power of Satan aren't now idly waiting for time to expire. The church on earth, which believers are, is already being surrounded by powers and principalities through spiritual wickedness, we fight not against flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high places. Once Satan is free and given his little season, he will make haste as he attempts to keep the Kingdom of God from being complete. The reason Satan is given this little season is not so he can continue his evil pursuit against Christians. The power of God will be magnified and on display then, so that the whole earth will know the Almighty rules over all, and every power in heaven and earth will bow at His command.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Satan will not be set free for a little season until time symbolized a thousand years expires. After that Satan is given a little season, yes?

Yes, it is clear that Satan's little season occurs after the thousand years expires.

I think you agreed that time symbolized a thousand years extends from the first advent of Christ until that time expires.

Yes, I agree with that.

Where do you place Satan's little season?

In relation to what? Not sure what you're asking here exactly, but I see it as occurring when the thousand years expires and just before the return of Christ. But, I don't know if this answers your question or not since your question is not very specific.

Satan is bound during this time, and not set free until it expires, then the seventh angel begins to sound that time shall be no more.

This is where I think you get off track. Time will be no more very shortly after the seventh angel sounds his trumpet. You agree that the seventh trumpet is the same as the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15:51-52, right? We know from that passage that we will all be changed in a moment at that point. That suggests that once the seventh and last trumpet sounds, things will happen very quickly at that point. How does that even allow for a time period of multiple days at that point, let alone "a little season" which is not a way to describe just a few days.

Where, before the seventh trumpet sounds do you find Satan's little season of time since he is not free until time expires?

I believe Satan is loosed as of the fifth trumpet. If you read Revelation 9 you should see that it talks about the abyss/bottomless pit being opened at that point and it talks about the angel of the abyss, Abaddon/Apollyon, the king of the symbolic locusts (fallen angels) there. I believe that Abaddon/Apollyon is another name for Satan, so that text refers to him and his angels being loosed from the bottomless pit, which is not a literal place that incapacitates Satan as Premils believe.

But remember time cannot expire completely until Satan has a little season?

Right. I never said otherwise.

It's not only the KJV that translates the verse in this manner. Here are a few that I find faithful. The NIV is not among them.

Revelation 10:6-7 (YLT) and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages, who did create the heaven and the things in it, and the land and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it--that time shall not be yet, but in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when he may be about to sound, and the secret of God may be finished, as He did declare to His own servants, to the prophets.

Revelation 10:6-7 (WEB) and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as he declared to his servants, the prophets.

Revelation 10:6-7 (ASV) and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be delay no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then is finished they mystery of God, according to the good tidings which he declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 10:6-7 (Bish) And sware by hym that lyueth for euermore, which created heauen and the thynges that therin are, & the earth and the thinges that therin are, and the sea, and the thynges which therin are, that there shoulde be no longer tyme. But in the dayes of the voyce of the seuenth Angel, when he shall begyn to blowe, euen the misterie of God shalbe finished, as he declared to his seruautes the prophetes.

I don't want to argue with you about English Bible translations, but I am fully convinced that it's talking about the days leading up to the sounding of the seventh trumpet rather than talking about days that occur after it sounds. And I have explained why I believe that.

Can you explain when Satan will have his little season, since he is not freed until time, symbolized a thousand years expire?

You already asked me this and I already answered above.

Satan will not be given a little season until after the seventh angel begins to sound that time (I believe a thousand years) shall be no longer.

I disagree. I believe the seventh trumpet will sound at the end of Satan's little season because once the seventh trumpet sounds, things will happen very quickly, as described in 1 Cor 15:51-52 and Revelation 11:15-18. There will be no time for multiple days and a little season at that point.

How could he be given a little season before a thousand years of symbolic time expires, if he does not receive his little season until he is freed after a thousand years of symbolic time expires?

I never said that his little season occurs before the thousand years expires. Based on Revelation 20 verses 3 and 7, he very clearly is not loosed until the thousand years expires first.

I hope I have explained the dilemma in a way you understand?

Not really, but thanks for trying. I am still very confused about your understanding of Satan's little season in relation to the thousand years.

The last trump cannot signal the end of Satan's little season, because John says he will not be given a little season until time, symbolized a thousand years expires.

I disagree that he says that. I'm not seeing that at all.

Maybe this will help you understand my view. What Paul talks about in 2 Thess 2 in regards to a mass falling away and increased wickedness and deception just before the return of Christ is what I believe will occur during Satan's little season. Does that clarify my view for you at all?

Yes, I understand that Christ returns with the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

Okay, so how can Satan's little season follow His return? You said that Satan's little season follows the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This does not make any sense.

I also understand that believers are resurrected/raised on the last day of the days/time the seventh angel sounds, when we receive immortal & incorruptible bodies. Satan's little season in the days the seventh angel begins to sound because it cannot begin until time symbolized a thousand years expires.

We'll have to agree to disagree on there being multiple days during which the seventh angel begins to sound. I can't make any sense of that interpretation at all because it's clear to me that once the seventh trumpet sounds (which shouldn't take long at all to sound) then things happen very quickly at that point, as evidenced by what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 15:51-52 regarding the last trumpet.

Being aware of the powers of Satan even while he is bound proves to me that the little season, he shall have will be exactly that.

Exactly that being the few days I mentioned. I don't understand that at all. Do you have any evidence you can use to support the idea that "a little season" could be as short as only a few days? How do you interpret this passage:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Do you see the "little season", during which the "fellowservants" of those who had died as of the opening of the fifth seal had to wait for their deaths to be avenged, as lasting only a few days?

The forces of evil under the power of Satan aren't now idly waiting for time to expire. The church on earth, which believers are, is already being surrounded by powers and principalities through spiritual wickedness, we fight not against flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high places. Once Satan is free and given his little season, he will make haste as he attempts to keep the Kingdom of God from being complete. The reason Satan is given this little season is not so he can continue his evil pursuit against Christians. The power of God will be magnified and on display then, so that the whole earth will know the Almighty rules over all, and every power in heaven and earth will bow at His command.

I just don't see that his little season could last just a very short time (a few days?) as you believe. A short time, sure, but not that short. What do you think of my view that the mass falling away and the increase in wickedness that Paul said would occur before the second coming of Christ is related directly to Satan's little season?

 

[WPM]

In other words - you can't refute a SINGLE thing I said.
Good job, Einstein . . .

Does your mum know you are unsupervised online?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does your mum know you are unsupervised online?

LOL. Apparently not because there's no way she would approve of his behavior. But, he was right about what he said, though. You can't refute a single thing he said. You can refute everything he said.

 

[St. SteVen]

The NT Canon of Scripture that Protestants adhere to is the one declared by the Catholic church in 383AD at the Synod of Rome.

What are the contents of that NT canon? Anything different than what we have in hand?
Or are you suggesting that Protestants don't have the latest authorized canon?
If so, why the change from an earlier ruling?

BTW: Thanks again for your informative posts.