22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truther]

The words (Thousand Years Expire) would be equivalent to the words (He who now letteth will let) is it speaking of a literal earthly thousand years "NO" its symbolic speech with the same meaning, a time when Satan is loosed in two different explanations

I have done my best to explain (Thousand Years) as being a figure of speech, one day is a thousand years (Not A Literal Thousand Years)

The Horse Is Dead

Revelation 20:7KJV
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8KJV
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The antichrist is not satan.

The wicked Thes is talking about is here...

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Satan gets sent to hell here...

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Truth7t7]

How about Isaiah 11 for a start
Or Isaiah 2

Isaiah chapter 2 is the (Eternal Kingdom) after the day of the Lord takes place, you will closely note in verse 22, man's breath is taken from his nostril's, all human life ceases, the earth has been dissolved by the Lord fire in judgement 2 Peter 3:10-13

(The Day Of The Lord) The End

Isaiah 2:12-22KJV
12 For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?

 

[Truther]

(Thousand Years) is mentioned below, is it a literal thousand years or a literal day?

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

It is compared to a day per God.

This is why Rev 20 is called the day of the Lord.

It is a 1000 year "day" per Peter.

The Bible also references the day of the Lord here...

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


This(above) is describing the beginning of the new covenant, the Apocalypse of Rev unto the return of Christ to start the 1000 year "day of the Lord"....


20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Which Peter did not address.

 

[Truther]

For those that think the day of the Lord is 24 hours, which time zone is it under?

 

[Truther]

Proof that the day of the Lord is a long period of time.....


14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour....

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

 

[Truth7t7]

It is compared to a day per God.

This is why Rev 20 is called the day of the Lord.

It is a 1000 year "day" per Peter.

The Bible also references the day of the Lord here...

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


This(above) is describing the beginning of the new covenant, the Apocalypse of Rev unto the return of Christ to start the 1000 year "day of the Lord"....


20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Which Peter did not address.

A thousand year long day?

Is that like the moon is made of Swiss cheese?

 

[covenantee]

No doubt.

We are included in future national Israel's covenant through a partial dark glass way.

All nations can participate in this pre-millennial experience.

It will blow us all away when the dark glasses are removed and we see everything face to face.

No wonder the partial gifts will cease, as the author of the gifts will walk among the inhabitants of the world, healed, whole and demon free.

Your "partial" has been previously debunked.

 

[rwb]

I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth

Repeatedly quoting the same passage does NOT answer the question asked. We all know some lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, and others will also live and reign with Him a thousand years. So, the question, once again is where and when did those martyrs live and reign with Christ a thousand years, and when and where is it that others too shall reign with Him? Let me simplify it for you, did the martyrs live and reign with Christ a thousand years in TIME (on earth) or in eternity (heaven)? Will those who shall reign with Him be in TIME (this earth) or eternity (heaven)?

I asked because if man does not live and reign with Christ in TIME, for which a thousand years equates, then man will NOT reign with Christ through eternity, first in heaven after physical death, then on the new earth in resurrected immortal & incorruptible bodies.

YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN to know and enter the spiritual Kingdom of God. You're so consumed with a physical Kingdom upon this sin-cursed, destined to die earth where the reign of Christ is limited to ONE thousand years of time, that you have altogether missed the spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ came with, and that will last FOREVER! You are one of those outside of the spiritual Kingdom trying to promote a doctrine that is foreign to Scripture, which is why you cannot prove what you allege.

 

[rwb]

He really is. And for no good reason. He clearly has no spiritual discernment whatsoever.

That's because he does not know and therefore has not entered into the spiritual Kingdom of God! He has not the Spirit to guide him. So, of course he has not spiritual discernment.

 

[rwb]

All believers, past, present, and future, that are sealed by the Holy Spirit partake in the future first resurrection on the last day

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

This believer is anxiously awaiting the future bodily resurrection to immortality and incorruption on the last day because in TIME (a thousand years) I have part in the first resurrection that is Christ's resurrection life He has graciously given to me by giving me of His Spirit. I who was once spiritually dead in trespasses and sins was made spiritually alive through Him. Having this guarantee, I live by faith in the Son of God who shall also redeem my mortal corruptible body from death when the last trump sounds.

So, indeed I do look forward to fulfillment of Eph 4:30 when my body too shall be redeemed from the death that sin has ordained every human being to.

 

[rwb]

The first resurrection is history?

Please give us the date of this divinely historic event?

The first resurrection is not a thing it is a person, Jesus Christ, Son of the living God! We partake of Him in life by having part in His resurrection life through His Spirit in us. This is the only way we might know and enter the spiritual Kingdom of God; i.e. YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN! There is no date or time stamp on entrance into resurrection life of Christ, Who is the first to be resurrected physically to NEVER die again. Entrance into the spiritual Kingdom of God in this age of TIME (a thousand years) is according to grace through faith...we MUST believe Christ to be born again and have part in the first resurrection that assures we have overcome the second death. Since Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", all who are of faith in Him have part in His resurrection life spiritually.

 

[rwb]

(Thousand Years) isn't literal time as you suggest it "literally" ends with Satan's season "Wrong", it does nothing more than show the Lord is outside of time in "one day is a thousand years" Revelation 20:1-6 is (The Lord Spiritual Realm) The Souls, The Dead

A thousand years equates to an unspecified period of TIME. It is TIME given to this Gospel age/era/day/time for which the church on earth is given a mandate from Christ to "Go out" with the Gospel message unto all the nations of the world. And whosoever hears according to grace through faith the message about Christ and believes "shall be saved". The thousand years equating to this period of time comes to an end when (1) the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete when the last one to be saved has spiritually come in (2) Satan is freed for a little season. The purpose for Satan to be freed is to allow him to gather together all who are alive upon the earth who are still in unbelief (Gog & Magog), so that fire can come down from God out of heaven to destroy them all. Those who are of faith who are still alive when the thousand years of time comes to an end will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air so they shall not partake of the wrath of God being poured upon this world and unbelievers.

 

[rwb]

Sad part is, you as well as premillennialist claim "Thousand Years" is literal earthly time "It's Not"

It states thousand years expires, it's not literal time on this earth as you claim

To go a step farther you claim (First Resurrection) is interpreted as those who partake in the Lord's resurrection 2,000 years ago, when the scripture puts it in the future at the symbolic end of this non-literal thousand years, at the time of the end

Your claim and interpretation that (First Resurrection) seen below was that if Jesus Christ is Laughable

Revelation 20:5KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I agree a thousand years is not literally ONE thousand years! But a thousand years still symbolizes ALL TIME given this Gospel age. It expires when the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, and then after Satan is permitted his little season, TIME shall be no more! Once the mystery of God, which is that peoples from every nation of the earth shall complete the spiritual Kingdom of God, then time given (a symbolic thousand years) the church for proclaiming the Gospel unto all the earth "should be no longer."

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Only the dead will not live again until the thousand years symbolizing time is finished, because they NEVER have part in the first resurrection of Christ in life. So, after death they will not be resurrected again until they are called to stand before the GWT judgment. Those having lived and reigned with Christ in TIME (a thousand years) and those who shall reign with Him a thousand years (TIME) have part in the resurrection life of Christ, Who is the first resurrection from the dead and shall never die again.

When John writes, "This is the first resurrection" he is speaking of those of vs 6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." We know this is how the verses should be defined because the rest of the dead will only be bodily resurrected, which is not the "first resurrection" that must come in TIME (a thousand years), because after time is no more the resurrection will be bodily for them to have part in the lake of fire that is the second death. That means they NEVER have part in the first resurrection in TIME, so they NEVER live and reign with Christ.

 

[Truther]

Repeatedly quoting the same passage does NOT answer the question asked. We all know some lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, and others will also live and reign with Him a thousand years. So, the question, once again is where and when did those martyrs live and reign with Christ a thousand years, and when and where is it that others too shall reign with Him? Let me simplify it for you, did the martyrs live and reign with Christ a thousand years in TIME (on earth) or in eternity (heaven)? Will those who shall reign with Him be in TIME (this earth) or eternity (heaven)?

I asked because if man does not live and reign with Christ in TIME, for which a thousand years equates, then man will NOT reign with Christ through eternity, first in heaven after physical death, then on the new earth in resurrected immortal & incorruptible bodies.

YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN to know and enter the spiritual Kingdom of God. You're so consumed with a physical Kingdom upon this sin-cursed, destined to die earth where the reign of Christ is limited to ONE thousand years of time, that you have altogether missed the spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ came with, and that will last FOREVER! You are one of those outside of the spiritual Kingdom trying to promote a doctrine that is foreign to Scripture, which is why you cannot prove what you allege.

I said earth.

 

[Truther]

The first resurrection is not a thing it is a person, Jesus Christ, Son of the living God! We partake of Him in life by having part in His resurrection life through His Spirit in us. This is the only way we might know and enter the spiritual Kingdom of God; i.e. YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN! There is no date or time stamp on entrance into resurrection life of Christ, Who is the first to be resurrected physically to NEVER die again. Entrance into the spiritual Kingdom of God in this age of TIME (a thousand years) is according to grace through faith...we MUST believe Christ to be born again and have part in the first resurrection that assures we have overcome the second death. Since Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", all who are of faith in Him have part in His resurrection life spiritually.

The resurrected saints in the first resurrection are not part of the first resurrection?

 

[WPM]

"Little Season" is representative of when Satan a spirit being will be let free to perform God's will, it's relationship to "Thousand Years" isn't literal earthly time, it is one day is a thousand years time, (Not Literal)

Revelation 6:11KJV
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Below Is it one literal day or one thousand literal years?

(It's Neither) its symbolic speech communicating to the human mind that God doesn't have a clock at his throne, he is Alpha/Omega outside of time

Today the words would be one day is a Zillion Years (Not Literal Time)

You want to put this thousand years as having a literal beginning and end, "Wrong" it's symbolic figurative speech of one day is a thousand years

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The words (Thousand Years Expire) would be equivalent to the words (He who now letteth will let) is it speaking of a literal earthly thousand years "NO" its symbolic speech with the same meaning, a time when Satan is loosed in two different explanations

I have done my best to explain (Thousand Years) as being a figure of speech, one day is a thousand years (Not A Literal Thousand Years)

The Horse Is Dead

Revelation 20:7KJV
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8KJV
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

But Rev 20 describes real unfolding historic events. You are spiritualizing it all away like the Full Preterist. One reality changes to another.

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree a thousand years is not literally ONE thousand years! But a thousand years still symbolizes ALL TIME given this Gospel age.

I Disagree

The words (Thousand Years) does nothing more than represent God's spiritual realm of no literal time

Examples:

Scripture: They lived and reigned with Christ a (Thousand Years)

Paraphrase: They lived and reigned with Christ in his (Eternal Spiritual Realm)

Reformed Preterist Eschatology falsely interprets the (Thousand Years) beginning at the (Resurrection) of Jesus Christ, to falsely lay a foundation for interpretation of the words (First Resurrection) taking place at a person partaking in this at salvation (Wrong)

The words (First Resurrection) represent the fact (The Dead In Christ Rise First) its that simple

 

[Truth7t7]

A thousand years equates to an unspecified period of TIME. It is TIME given to this Gospel age/era/day/time for which the church on earth is given a mandate from Christ to "Go out" with the Gospel message unto all the nations of the world.

I Disagree, your explanation is a private interpretation found no place in scripture

You state (Thousand Years) is unspecified time, then you give it a direct attachment to earthly time in a Gospel age, Smiles!

The words (Thousand Years) equates to God's eternal, one day is a thousand years, it's that simple

 

[Truth7t7]

(2) Satan is freed for a little season. The purpose for Satan to be freed is to allow him to gather together all who are alive upon the earth who are still in unbelief (Gog & Magog), so that fire can come down from God out of heaven to destroy them all. Those who are of faith who are still alive when the thousand years of time comes to an end will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air so they shall not partake of the wrath of God being poured upon this world and unbelievers.

I Agree with much, however your suggestion that (Thousand Years) is literal time that ends I Disagree

 

[Truth7t7]

But Rev 20 describes real unfolding historic events. You are spiritualizing it all away like the Full Pretersist. One reality changes to another.

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time?

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.