22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because the New Jerusalem descending is the Church, not all mankind.

I agree, but I don't see how that means what is said in Revelation 21:4 only applies to the church.

I suppose you may not understand it from your point of view if you think Rev 20 is a crux.

What does that mean?

Regardless, I suppose this is something that would require more time to talk to you about. I am limited today though due to family issues.

Take your time.

It seems clear to me that Revelation 21:4 is differentiating between conditions on "the first earth" (this earth as we know it) and the new earth. Once the new earth is ushered in there will literally be no more death, mourning, crying or pain ever again. Period. I'm honestly baffled as to how anyone can see it any other way. Especially considering that at the end of Revelation 21:4 it says "the old order of things has passed away". How will the old order of things pass away at that point from a Premil perspective?

Again, take your time and please just respond whenever you get a chance.

Oh, one other thing. As I said before, when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, that is when the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in. And it says the first heaven and first earth will have passed away at that point. How can a thousand years (plus Satan's little season) take place on the first earth after it has passed away?

I guess there's one other thing as well. The following passage talks about how the first heaven and first earth will pass away.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Peter indicated that the first earth will pass away as a result of fire coming down on it and burning it up. How exactly can a thousand year time period (plus Satan's little season) occur on the earth after what is described above occurs?

 

[WPM]

Rev 1:
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Ok, you have nothing. Just like I thought. The Premil opinion of Rev 20 is totally uncorroboarted.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 1:
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Where does that say anything about a future thousand years? Nowhere. Did you not understand the question? What he is asking you is for any New Testament scripture besides Revelation 20 that you can use to support your interpretation of Revelation 20. So, is there any?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Excellent! I had never noticed this about Revelation 3:11-12 before. It definitely places the timing of the coming of the New Jerusalem at Christ's second coming and not 1,000+ years later as Premils imagine.

Is this something you recently noticed? I hadn't seen you post about this before.

I see nothing in that passage which hints at a sequence of events.

 

[WPM]

Where does that say anything about a future thousand years? Nowhere. Did you not understand the question? What he is asking you is for any New Testament scripture besides Revelation 20 that you can use to support your interpretation of Revelation 20. So, is there any?

No, there is not.

 

[Taken]

Ok, you have nothing. Just like I thought. The Premil opinion of Rev 20 is totally uncorroboarted.

Of course I disagree with you that The Word of God, is nothing.

Where does that say anything about a future thousand years? Nowhere. Did you not understand the question? What he is asking you is for any New Testament scripture besides Revelation 20 that you can use to support your interpretation of Revelation 20. So, is there any?

The specific one thousand years time span is revealed 5 times in Rev 20.
I am content With that Revelation of God, of Jesus Christ, of a holy Angel, of John as being sufficiently signified and in agreement among each. .

 

[WPM]

Of course I disagree with you that The Word of God, is nothing.


The specific one thousand years time span is revealed 5 times in Rev 20.
I am content With that Revelation of God, of Jesus Christ, of a holy Angel, of John as being sufficiently signified and in agreement among each. .

LOL. Exactly: your support for your private opinion of Rev 20 is your private opinion of Rev 20. That is a ridiculous mode of interpretation. That is horrible hermeneutics. This reinforces the Op. Thanks.

This is another reason to reject Premil.

 

[Taken]

LOL. Exactly: your support for your private opinion of Rev 20 is your private opinion of Rev 20. That is a ridiculous mode of interpretation. That is horrible hermeneutics. This reinforces the Op. Thanks.

This is another reason to reject Premil.

No, I am not in agreement with the OP. Thanking me for what you say for me is another disingenuous Tactic.

Me trusting the Knowledge revealed by the Word of God Is not me interpreting the Knowledge….it is me choosing to believe Gods Word and you are simply denying Gods Word.

 

[Taken]

This is another reason to reject Premil.

As far as your rejection CHRISTS Church being Not subject to Wrath and Tribulation sent down from Heaven…who cares that should you be alive in those days, that you will suffer along with all the others who deny the Word of God….I don’t.
Your FREEWILL will be acknowledged and Gods Will shall prevail!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The specific one thousand years time span is revealed 5 times in Rev 20.
I am content With that Revelation of God, of Jesus Christ, of a holy Angel, of John as being sufficiently signified and in agreement among each. .

The thousand years is actually referenced six times, but the number of times it is referenced is irrelevant when it comes to determing if it's a literal one thousand years or not. The beast is referenced over 30 times in the book. Does that make it a literal beast? Of course not. So, this kind of argument is weak, at best.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As far as your rejection CHRISTS Church being Not subject to Wrath and Tribulation sent down from Heaven…who cares that should you be alive in those days, that you will suffer along with all the others who deny the Word of God….I don’t.
Your FREEWILL will be acknowledged and Gods Will shall prevail!

Wow. What in the world is this judgmental nonsense? Show me where scripture teaches that any believer, regardless of their eschatological beliefs, would ever suffer God's wrath?

 

[Taken]

Excellent! I had never noticed this about Revelation 3:11-12 before. It definitely places the timing of the coming of the New Jerusalem at Christ's second coming and not 1,000+ years later as Premils imagine.

Is this something you recently noticed? I hadn't seen you post about this before.

The New JERUSALEM comes down from Heaven….
After the 1,000 year reign of Christ Jesus.
After all nations of mortals come Against CHRISTS Kingdom and are killed.
After spiritual warfare between holy and demonic angels.
After Satan and his followers and judgement of all the ungodly.

Roll eyes.

 

[WPM]

No, I am not in agreement with the OP. Thanking me for what you say for me is another disingenuous Tactic.

Me trusting the Knowledge revealed by the Word of God Is not me interpreting the Knowledge….it is me choosing to believe Gods Word and you are simply denying Gods Word.

Not so. You just confirmed my Op. This is why so many are rejecting Premil.

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and very much disagree with this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The New JERUSALEM comes down from Heaven….
After the 1,000 year reign of Christ Jesus.
After all nations of mortals come Against CHRISTS Kingdom and are killed.
After spiritual warfare between holy and demonic angels.
After Satan and his followers and judgement of all the ungodly.

Roll eyes.

The point I had responded to was that the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven when Christ returns, which is what is indicated in Revelation 3:11-12. Read it for yourself:

Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

So, with that in mind, why do you have it coming down 1,000+ years after His return? For no other reason than the lazy assumption that what is described in Revelation 20 occurs chronologically after what is described in Revelation 19. You seemingly could not care less that the conclusions you draw from Revelation 20 contradict many other scriptures. Including Matthew 25:31-46 which indicates that the ungodly will be judged when Jesus comes with His angels. Do you take that into account when interpreting Revelation 20? Apparently not.

 

[WPM]

As far as your rejection CHRISTS Church being Not subject to Wrath and Tribulation sent down from Heaven…who cares that should you be alive in those days, that you will suffer along with all the others who deny the Word of God….I don’t.
Your FREEWILL will be acknowledged and Gods Will shall prevail!

What are you talking about?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not so. You just confirmed my Op. This is why so many are rejecting Premil.

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and very much disagree with this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.

Exactly. Without their assumption that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically, when would Premils believe that the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire? Right after Christ returns. That is clearly indicated in passages like Matthew 25:31-46. But, they have decided that they need to change the rest of scripture, including passages like Matthew 25:31-46, in light of Revelation 20 instead of interpreting Revelation 20 in light of the rest of scripture.

 

[Taken]

The thousand years is actually referenced six times, but the number of times it is referenced is irrelevant when it comes to determing if it's a literal one thousand years or not. The beast is referenced over 30 times in the book. Does that make it a literal beast? Of course not. So, this kind of argument is weak, at best.

You can dismiss any Scriptural Knowledge you desire. It has zero effect on me.

As in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of…..WHO? Uh He who WAS Here and Human Eyes could See?…called the Son of Man….and WHO shall every Eye See When He Returns? Uh the Son of Man…You, from you place ON the Earth can then LOOK UP….He will be Sitting on a White CLOUD….and those (like me and my brethren IN Christ) shall be IN the Clouds WITH Him, which you Will Not See.

God sent down from Heaven Tribulations to destroy the Earth and its inhabitants, Because of Gods Anger of how corrupt the Earth and its inhabitants had become.
And more Scriptural knowledge reveals Gods Anger for the SAME reason Shall Again occur, and Again God shall send down His Tribulations and Wrath upon this World.

Scripture also reveals there is nothing new under the sun, what was before shall be Again.

So what was IN Noah’s Day? Did Faithful Noah Remain ON the face of the Earth and suffer drowning in the flood?
Oh , oh, oh….no Noah was lifted up …24 feet + above the mountain tops. Ever had a look above the highest mountain tops? Not a secret…it’s IN the CLOUDS!
Not a secret the Lord shall call UP to Him, IN the CLOUDS CHRISTS Church, WHO shall forever more Be WITH the Lord…..you know, like when Christ The King of kings and Lord of lord descends to earth to rule mortal nations of kings and lords for 1,000 years….while Satan and his demons are in hell fuming and you?
Where will you be?

 

[WPM]

You can dismiss any Scriptural Knowledge you desire. It has zero effect on me.

As in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of…..WHO? Uh He who WAS Here and Human Eyes could See?…called the Son of Man….and WHO shall every Eye See When He Returns? Uh the Son of Man…You, from you place ON the Earth can then LOOK UP….He will be Sitting on a White CLOUD….and those (like me and my brethren IN Christ) shall be IN the Clouds WITH Him, which you Will Not See.

God sent down from Heaven Tribulations to destroy the Earth and its inhabitants, Because of Gods Anger of how corrupt the Earth and its inhabitants had become.
And more Scriptural knowledge reveals Gods Anger for the SAME reason Shall Again occur, and Again God shall send down His Tribulations and Wrath upon this World.

Scripture also reveals there is nothing new under the sun, what was before shall be Again.

So what was IN Noah’s Day? Did Faithful Noah Remain ON the face of the Earth and suffer drowning in the flood?
Oh , oh, oh….no Noah was lifted up …24 feet + above the mountain tops. Ever had a look above the highest mountain tops? Not a secret…it’s IN the CLOUDS!
Not a secret the Lord shall call UP to Him, IN the CLOUDS CHRISTS Church, WHO shall forever more Be WITH the Lord…..you know, like when Christ The King of kings and Lord of lord descends to earth to rule mortal nations of kings and lords for 1,000 years….while Satan and his demons are in hell fuming and you?
Where will you be?

The ark is a picture of Christ when He comes to rescue all His elect. None miss it! The destruction that was poured out upon all the wicked tallies with the destruction of all those left behind when Jesus comes. It is immediate and total. None escape.

 

[Taken]

What are you talking about?

I quoted Gods Word, Jesus Christs revelation, an Angel and John’s word….and you said:

WPM …you have nothing. Just like I thought.

You were not calling my word nothing….You responded to A quote of Gods Word that that was nothing.

 

[WPM]

I quoted Gods Word, Jesus Christs revelation, an Angel and John’s word….and you said:

WPM …you have nothing. Just like I thought.

You were not calling my word nothing….You responded to A quote of Gods Word that that was nothing.

It is hard to read your posts. The grammar is rough. No, your private opinion is what I reject. The Scripture reinforce Amil. You have zero corroboration for the Premil theory.