Another Premillennial absurdity

[rwb]

lol - a little off is not personal a thing here

It's like Archery = you have a Bullseye that is 'True Center'
You and WPM hit the Bullseye on some things but other things you off to the right/left/alittle high/ a little low.

So what do we do when we are hitting the Target but not True-Center = we adjust our sights/hearts by = "it is written"

Peace and i appreciate your Love in Christ

David, how do you know it is not your doctrine that hits the bullseye on some things, as well as being off where the doctrine of wpm and myself is hitting the bullseye?

 

[rwb]

I think i am slowing down bro. LOL

Nope, don't believe that for a second!

 

[David in NJ]

David, how do you know it is not your doctrine that hits the bullseye on some things, as well as being off where the doctrine of wpm and myself is hitting the bullseye?

LOVE this question you posed = Excellent!!!

Maybe i should start a Thread on it - ???

Let me ponder here if i should start a new thread............

 

[David in NJ]

Nope, don't believe that for a second!

i'm eating dinner

 

[WPM]

lol - a little off is not a personal thing here

It's like Archery = you have a Bullseye that is 'True Center'
You and WPM hit the Bullseye on some things but other things you off to the right/left/alittle high/ a little low.

So what do we do when we are hitting the Target but not True-Center = we adjust our sights/hearts by = "it is written"

Peace and i appreciate your Love in Christ

David,

How about actually highlighting where we are supposedly off. From our perspective, there is a lot of unaddressed Scripture, posts and arguments here. I can only conclude that you have no real rebuttal if you keep avoiding and simply expressing your non-specific opinions. Frankly, this will not cut. It suggests a vulnerability in your position.

 

[David in NJ]

David,

How about actually highlighting where we are supposedly off. From our perspective, there is a lot of unaddressed Scripture, posts and arguments here. I can only conclude that you have no real rebuttal if you keep avoiding and simply expressing your non-specific opinions. Frankly, this will not cut. It suggests a vulnerability in your position.

Posts 1840 and 1842 are True Center Bullseyes

 

[WPM]

Posts 1840 and 1842 are True Center Bullseyes

Oh. So, refusing to directly address Amil arguments/Scriptures is a rebuttal in your opinion? I don't think so. That is avoidance.

A couple of easy questions:

What is the first resurrection?
Do you believe in corroboration?

 

[David in NJ]

Oh. So, refusing to directly address Amil arguments/Scriptures is a rebuttal in your opinion? I don't think so. That is avoidance.

A couple of easy questions:

What is the first resurrection?
Do you believe in corroboration?

CORRECT = “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”

A.) First Resurrection - Revelation 20:4-6
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

B.) First Resurrection - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

C.) First Resurrection - 1 Corinthians chapter 15

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

 

[WPM]

CORRECT = “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”

A.) First Resurrection - Revelation 20:4-6
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

B.) First Resurrection - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

C.) First Resurrection - 1 Corinthians chapter 15

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

So, it is only the dead in Christ that partake in the Premil first resurrection and overcome the second death when Jesus comes?

 

[WPM]

CORRECT = “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”

A.) First Resurrection - Revelation 20:4-6
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

B.) First Resurrection - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

C.) First Resurrection - 1 Corinthians chapter 15

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Scripture proves that the first resurrection occurred 2000 years ago. Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

 

[David in NJ]

So, it is only the dead in Christ that partake in the Premil first resurrection and overcome the second death when Jesus comes?

No, it is not only the dead in Christ who will be transformed.

1 Thess 4: 16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[WPM]

No, it is not only the dead in Christ who will be transformed.

1 Thess 4: 16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Not so. The living are caught up, not resurrected. Your theology causes millions of living Christians to miss the blessing of overcoming the second death. Amil believes such comes through the one and only first resurrection - Jesus Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

Scripture proves that the first resurrection occurred 2000 years ago. Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Not so. The living are caught up, not resurrected. Your theology causes millions of living Christians to miss the blessing of overcoming the second death. Amil believes such comes through the one and only first resurrection - Jesus Christ.

Scripture proves exactly what it says:

1 Thess 4: 16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Do you believe what Scripture is telling you here in 1 Thess 4:13-18 ?

 

[WPM]

Scripture proves exactly what it says:

1 Thess 4: 16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Do you believe what Scripture is telling you here in 1 Thess 4:13-18 ?

You have a contradiction that you are avoiding: there are two parties in 1 Thessalonians 4. The "first" are "the dead in Christ" alone! The second are the 'live in Christ' alone! The word "first" is simply to show order between the dead in Christ and the live in Christ at the general resurrection. The dead rise first and the “live” rise second. 1 Thessalonians 4 is simply showing order. This is not talking about the "first resurrection."

Obviously the physical resurrection is not the first if Jesus precedes it.

 

[David in NJ]

You have a contradiction that you are avoiding: there are two parties in 1 Thessalonians 4. The "first" are "the dead in Christ" alone! The second are the 'live in Christ' alone! The word "first" is simply to show order between the dead in Christ and the live in Christ at the general resurrection. The dead rise first and the “live” rise second. 1 Thessalonians 4 is simply showing order. This is not talking about the "first resurrection."

Obviously the physical resurrection is not the first if Jesus precedes it.

Indeed it is speaking of the First Resurrection because (drum roll) the Return of Christ is the First Resurrection.

Secondly, the Saints who are alive at the Second Coming will be transformed just as the dead in Christ who Rise FIRST = 1 Cor ch15

Peace

 

[Timtofly]

Oh. So, they are mortal believers that are born sinless and remain so for 1000 years until Satan appears whereupon they change sides and sin grossly against the Lord by turning their back on Him by embracing Satan? So, do they all end up in the Lake of Fire?

Those who follow Satan. That is the point, no? Satan ends up in the LOF. They follow all the way there, themselves. They are dead. What is the point after death?

The word mortal means death. That would be an oxymoron term to give those with eternal life.

They are redeemed in permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

 

[WPM]

Indeed it is speaking of the First Resurrection because (drum roll) the Return of Christ is the First Resurrection.

Secondly, the Saints who are alive at the Second Coming will be transformed just as the dead in Christ who Rise FIRST = 1 Cor ch15

Peace

The Bible distinguishes between the first and second aspects of this great final glorification event. Unfortunately, for your doctrine, and for your argument, whatever way you word it, the living in Christ are not part of your first resurrection. What is more, it causes you to overlook the real first resurrection which occurred 2000 years ago, thus proving we are in Revelation 20 now.

 

[WPM]

Those who follow Satan. That is the point, no? Satan ends up in the LOF. They follow all the way there, themselves. They are dead. What is the point after death?

The word mortal means death. That would be an oxymoron term to give those with eternal life.

They are redeemed in permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

1. So, according to you, turning your back on Jesus is not sin?
2. Embracing Satan and becoming a follower of him is not sin?
3. Mobilizing in Satan's army to destroy "the camp of the saints" is not sin?
4. Show me one single Scripture that teaches that the glorified saints procreate in the age to come?

 

[jeffweeder]

This is not speaking of the first resurrection for reasons given below...,

Indeed it is speaking of the First Resurrection because (drum roll) the Return of Christ is the First Resurrection.

At the return of Christ we are glorified when the Lord appears in a flame of fire to eternally separate unbelievers.

Secondly, the Saints who are alive at the Second Coming will be transformed just as the dead in Christ who Rise FIRST = 1 Cor ch15

Peace

Yes.
Both rise as a consequence of the Lords Glorious appearing. It is simultaneous, as we are caught up together in a twinkling of an eye......on the day he comes to take Eternal vengeance on those who shunned the Gospel. When Jesus appears we will be like him for we shall see him as he is....and the dead Christians see this the same time as those living.

Paul clearly does not support the idea of our glorification and the eternal separation of Gospel rejecters happening a thousand years after his coming in eternal vengeance to glory those waiting for him.
The Lord is coming in complete vengeance when he glorifies us.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].


God bless you in this.

 

[Timtofly]

So, to reject Christ and follow Satan is not sin in your eyes? What nonsense! So being deceived by the lie of Satan is not sin either? More nonsense!

Where does it say that there is no sin in a future millennium to be "passed down from generation to generation"?

Open your Bible and read it. Deception is sin. Being deceived by the devil is sin. The Word of God and the Holy Spirt show us that being deceived by Satan, rejecting Christ and following the devil is sin and leads to one being damned for all eternity. To think otherwise is gross deception! It is delusional! Those who have eyes to see will grasp this truth.

Jeremiah 17:9 states: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

Deceitfulness is sin. It is wicked.

C H Spurgeon: “if you had no devil to tempt you, no enemies to fight you, and no world to ensnare you, you would still find in yourself evil enough to be a sore trouble to you, for ‘the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked’.”

Oba 1:3 The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee,

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Revelation 20:3, 7-10: "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season ... And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

You keep forgetting that they don't follow Satan until after the Millennium. No one is following Satan in the Millennium. No one is deceived in the Millennium.

Of course, once Satan is loosed these people are deceived into a thought of disobedience. But not prior to Satan being loosed.