The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[brightfame52]

The seed mention refers to Christ, who God will see as his seed. I don't even see believers in the picture. I see no mention of converts or any conversion. You have to twist a lot to make this verse fit your theory. Which is why it is so easily seen as a theory because none of the text you use corroborates your view. I think you assume that the word "seed" which is a metaphor, has the same meaning in every context. This context has no believers even being referenced.

once again You are confused. Seed here does not mean believers. You bypass the whole context by dwelling on the word "seed" not even knowing to whom it is representing.
First, start with vs 13. God's promise that Abraham would be heir to the world was not to Abraham through the law but through faith.
Then it says if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise of no effect.
vs 16 Paul is stating it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those of the law, but to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. Meaning, Abraham offspring are spiritual, he is the father of all who believe, Jew and Gentile vs16-17.
The word "seed" refers to Christ. When the word descendants is used in vs 18 he is speaking of the descendants of Abraham's faith.
Check Gal 3:16 for the descendant of Abraham - it is not believers
These texts do not support your view. Why do you choose them? Is it because you don't understand them or you need the word "seed" and twist the meaning out of context?

There is that word again, "seed". Two translations use seed, others use the word posterity. Either fits because it refers to believers who will tell others for generations.
Isn't it the norm for believers to serve God and to spread His Gospel. Believers worship Him, supposed to anyway. Nothing here again to support your view that Christ made converts/believers from the Cross. Nothing in the whole chapter explains or mentions how one becomes a believer. They are just assumed to exist.

The seed are the children/offspring God gave Christ to die for Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The children Heb 2:14
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

[Rightglory]

The seed are the children/offspring God gave Christ to die for Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The children Heb 2:14
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Isa 53:10, Christ is the seed not believers.
Then you go to Heb 2:14 which is not speaking of believers. Well, unless you believe ONLY believers are human beings who are partakers of flesh and blood. In your view what do unbelievers partake of? Do they have some other form, which Christ did not assume to destroy death. Again, if death is ONLY destroyed by Christ for believers, are you saying unbelievers never died therefore did not need Christ to redeem them from death? I don't see any human beings living eternally yet. Everyone seems to be dying. Rom 5:12 says this also.

What the verse is actually doing is confirming the Incarnation of Christ. Taking on Himself our humanity that He might defeat death, The death to which all men were sentenced through Adam. It has nothing particular to believers, except they are part of humanity. This is why Heb 2:9 states He tasted death for all men. Why Rom 5:18 says all men were given the gift of life through that Incarnation. Same for I Cor 15:20-22. and many others.
I asked you earlier if you believed in the Incarnation of Christ. You answered "Yes". However, all of your statements deny the Incarnation as you do with Heb 2:14.
I'm going to assume you believe in the resurrection of the dead, it is stated in the Apostles Creed. I don't know how that is possible within your view either. In your explanation of Heb 2:14 above, you are actually denying the resurrection of all men. You want to have ONLY believers rise from the dead in the last day.

 

[brightfame52]

Isa 53:10, Christ is the seed not believers.
Then you go to Heb 2:14 which is not speaking of believers. Well, unless you believe ONLY believers are human beings who are partakers of flesh and blood. In your view what do unbelievers partake of? Do they have some other form, which Christ did not assume to destroy death. Again, if death is ONLY destroyed by Christ for believers, are you saying unbelievers never died therefore did not need Christ to redeem them from death? I don't see any human beings living eternally yet. Everyone seems to be dying. Rom 5:12 says this also.

What the verse is actually doing is confirming the Incarnation of Christ. Taking on Himself our humanity that He might defeat death, The death to which all men were sentenced through Adam. It has nothing particular to believers, except they are part of humanity. This is why Heb 2:9 states He tasted death for all men. Why Rom 5:18 says all men were given the gift of life through that Incarnation. Same for I Cor 15:20-22. and many others.
I asked you earlier if you believed in the Incarnation of Christ. You answered "Yes". However, all of your statements deny the Incarnation as you do with Heb 2:14.
I'm going to assume you believe in the resurrection of the dead, it is stated in the Apostles Creed. I don't know how that is possible within your view either. In your explanation of Heb 2:14 above, you are actually denying the resurrection of all men. You want to have ONLY believers rise from the dead in the last day.

Yes the seed in Isa 53:10 is believers, or would be believers. Once they are born again they will believe and serve. Why are you opposing the saving achievements of Christs Death ? Thats evil !

 

[Rightglory]

Isa 53:10, Christ is the seed not believers.
Then you go to Heb 2:14 which is not speaking of believers. Well, unless you believe ONLY believers are human beings who are partakers of flesh and blood. In your view what do unbelievers partake of? Do they have some other form, which Christ did not assume to destroy death. Again, if death is ONLY destroyed by Christ for believers, are you saying unbelievers never died therefore did not need Christ to redeem them from death? I don't see any human beings living eternally yet. Everyone seems to be dying. Rom 5:12 says this also.

What the verse is actually doing is confirming the Incarnation of Christ. Taking on Himself our humanity that He might defeat death, The death to which all men were sentenced through Adam. It has nothing particular to believers, except they are part of humanity. This is why Heb 2:9 states He tasted death for all men. Why Rom 5:18 says all men were given the gift of life through that Incarnation. Same for I Cor 15:20-22. and many others.
I asked you earlier if you believed in the Incarnation of Christ. You answered "Yes". However, all of your statements deny the Incarnation as you do with Heb 2:14.
I'm going to assume you believe in the resurrection of the dead, it is stated in the Apostles Creed. I don't know how that is possible within your view either. In your explanation of Heb 2:14 above, you are actually denying the resurrection of all men. You want to have ONLY believers rise from the dead in the last day.

 

[Rightglory]

Yes the seed in Isa 53:10 is believers, or would be believers. Once they are born again they will believe and serve. Why are you opposing the saving achievements of Christs Death ? Thats evil !

So now Christ becomes believers. It is plainly stating the Christ is the seed, not believers. You are making Christ a believer. The fruit of that seed is not believers either. It is the resurrection of mankind. Overcoming death is the fruit of Christ being the seed that died and was raised. Believers are raised from the dead, only by virtue of being human beings. Believers become believers when they believe on Christ repent and are baptized. That is the conversion to which you keep referring to but don't understand how and when it takes place. God does not make believers arbitrarily, or by force or compulsion or in your case, election. Man must believe of his own free will, no other way and that faith reconciles that person to God. Paul exhorts people to do this in II Cor 5:20.

You have the conversion sequence incorrect as well. Belief happens before "being born again" We are "born again" through baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit. John 3:1-12.

 

[brightfame52]

So now Christ becomes believers. It is plainly stating the Christ is the seed, not believers. You are making Christ a believer. The fruit of that seed is not believers either. It is the resurrection of mankind. Overcoming death is the fruit of Christ being the seed that died and was raised. Believers are raised from the dead, only by virtue of being human beings. Believers become believers when they believe on Christ repent and are baptized. That is the conversion to which you keep referring to but don't understand how and when it takes place. God does not make believers arbitrarily, or by force or compulsion or in your case, election. Man must believe of his own free will, no other way and that faith reconciles that person to God. Paul exhorts people to do this in II Cor 5:20.

You have the conversion sequence incorrect as well. Belief happens before "being born again" We are "born again" through baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit. John 3:1-12.

You all mixed up. Christs death produces believers.

 

[Rightglory]

You all mixed up. Christs death produces believers.

Ok, Can you explain just how Christ's death produces believers within the understanding of the fall, the Incarnation and the end times when Christ comes again. This requires some thought and a theological argument, not your interpretation of texts which have all been shown to refute your theory.?

 

[brightfame52]

Ok, Can you explain just how Christ's death produces believers within the understanding of the fall, the Incarnation and the end times when Christ comes again. This requires some thought and a theological argument, not your interpretation of texts which have all been shown to refute your theory.?

I have explained, you cant understand it. Its obviously not Gods will for you to understand, since you oppose that most blessed Truth.

 

[Rightglory]

I have explained, you cant understand it. Its obviously not Gods will for you to understand, since you oppose that most blessed Truth.

You haven't explained anything. You cite a text and proclaim your interpretation upon it, whether it makes sense or not, let alone being scriptural and historical. You seem to think that the Bible was just published and now everyone needs to find out what it means. The Gospel was known and understood before it was written. The written has been available and used by Christians for 2000 years. The Holy Spirit promised to preserve that Gospel until the end of time. Granted, there has been individual men who wanted to change it, the Atonement being one, but was condemned by the Church at the Council of Chalcedon. It hasn't changed since.

 

[brightfame52]

You haven't explained anything. You cite a text and proclaim your interpretation upon it, whether it makes sense or not, let alone being scriptural. You seem to think that the Bible was just published and now everyone needs to find out what it means. The Gospel was known and understood before it was written. The written has been available and used by Christians for 2000 years. The Holy Spirit promised to preserve that Gospel until the end of time. Granted, there has been individual men who wanted to change it, the Atonement being one, but was condemned by the Church at the Council of Chalcedon. It hasn't changed since.

I have explained enough. The scripture is right before you, yet you dont believe it.

 

[Rightglory]

Yes the seed in Isa 53:10 is believers, or would be believers. Once they are born again they will believe and serve. Why are you opposing the saving achievements of Christs Death ? Thats evil !

You do know how to butcher a text. Just pull it out of context and assign a meaning that has absolutely no relevance to the text you are citing. From vs 10-13 the conversation is God speaking of Christ. You want to make Christ a believer. That is rich. You have a believer, who is the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous and He shall bear their iniquities, later He bore the sins of many. Could you tell me which believer you are speaking about? Which believer died for the iniquities of us all.
You need to seriously revisit your view.

 

[brightfame52]

You do know how to butcher a text. Just pull it out of context and assign a meaning that has absolutely no relevance to the text you are citing. From vs 10-13 the conversation is God speaking of Christ. You want to make Christ a believer. That is rich. You have a believer, who is the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous and He shall bear their iniquities, later He bore the sins of many. Could you tell me which believer you are speaking about? Which believer died for the iniquities of us all.
You need to seriously revisit your view.

The seed are the elect, believers that shall serve Him Ps 22:30

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

 

[Rightglory]

The seed are the elect, believers that shall serve Him Ps 22:30

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

If I plant a seed in the garden, would the fruit of that seed be believers?
Seed is a metaphor. It has meaning based on context. It does not have the same meaning every time the word seed is used.
Your thoughts are not even rational, or logical and leads to ridiculous statements as above.
Ps 22:30 is a completely different use and context than Is 53:10.

 

[brightfame52]

If I plant a seed in the garden, would the fruit of that seed be believers?
Seed is a metaphor. It has meaning based on context. It does not have the same meaning every time the word seed is used.
Your thoughts are not even rational, or logical and leads to ridiculous statements as above.
Ps 22:30 is a completely different use and context than Is 53:10.

Your question lacks biblical wisdom ! A seed shall serve Him. The are the fruit of His death.

 

[brightfame52]

rightglory

Your thoughts are not even rational, or logical and leads to ridiculous statements as above.
Ps 22:30 is a completely different use and context than Is 53:10.

Others share my lack of rational and logic like:

John Gill:

A seed shall serve him,.... That is, Christ shall always have a seed to serve him in every age; a remnant according to the election of grace; see Romans 9:29; so that as the former verses speak of the amplitude of Christ's kingdom, through the calling of the Gentiles, these words and the following express the duration of it: and this "seed" either means Christ's seed; so the Septuagint version, and others that follow it, render it, "my seed"; the spiritual seed and offspring of Christ, which the Father has given him, and which shall endure for ever, Isaiah 53:10;

matthew Poole

Christ shall not want a seed or posterity, Hebrews 2:13; for though the Jewish nation should generally reject and forsake him, which may seem to be here implied, Christ shall have many disciples or followers, and the Gentiles shall come in their stead. Compare this promise with that, he shall see his seed, Isaiah 53:10. Or, their

seed, i.e. the seed of the Gentile worshippers last mentioned.

Barnes:

A seed shall serve him - A people; a race. The word used here, and rendered "seed" - זרע zera‛ - means properly "a sowing;" then, a planting, a plantation; then. seed sown - of plants, trees, or grain; and then, a generation of men - children, offspring, posterity: Genesis 3:15; Genesis 13:16; Genesis 15:5, Genesis 15:13; et al. Hence, it means a race, stock, or family. It is used here as denoting those who belong to the family of God; his children. Compare Isaiah 6:13; Isaiah 65:9, Isaiah 65:23. The meaning here is, that, as the result of the work performed by the sufferer, many would be brought to serve God.

Look like you the only one with good sense !

 

[Rightglory]

rightglory



Others share my lack of rational and logic like:

John Gill:



matthew Poole


Barnes:


Look like you the only one with good sense !

None of these texts ever say that Christ, who is the seed, made believers by His death. Or as you have stated many times He converts them by His death.
None of these texts say that.
Lets take a closer look at Is 53:10,
The seed here is Christ, not believers as you stated in a previous text. In vs 10, he shall see his offspring ( believers)fruit is also (believers)
, now comes the important last two phrases of vs11.
#1 -make many to be accounted righteous;
Who was accounted righteous by his death. That would be mankind, He tasted death for all men, as well as all the other texts I cited earlier.
#2- and He shall bear their iniquities. Again, He bore the iniquities of all men, all sin. I John 2:2.
Nothing about Christ converting anyone, or making believers. All of Christ's work was to enable God to call all men to repentance. One becomes a believer by faith, not made by His death, or converted by His death. As I stated before, this would mean every single human being was made a believer by your view.
I know, by your discussion you hold to most of the tenets of Calvinism as does John Gill, Matthew Poole, and Albert Barnes. I can see why you misunderstand scripture regarding the fall, Incarnation and salvation of believers.

 

[brightfame52]

Made Righteous by His Faithfulness/Obedience ! 2

And so because they [whom Christ died for] stand before God with His Faithfulness and Righteousness and Obedience imputed to them, they are commensurately given His Faith, a portion of His own Faith [in New Birth] is given them by Christ; thats what Paul means that he lives by the faith of the Son of God, who Loved him and gave Himself for him Gal 2:20

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In other words, the Life of Faith that Paul now Lives was given to him by the Son of God who now lives in him. For he as well as all for whom Christ died were in Him representatively when He as their substitute and Surety was Crucified !

The Faith believers have to believe on Christ comes from Christ to them, He is the Author and Finisher of it. Now understand this, as their Saviour and Head He gives each member of His Body, He gives each of them an alloted portion of Faith Rom 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you [Believers/ Christ's Body], not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Notice here, faith has been dealt to every man of the body of Christ. The word dealt ,greek word merizō:


to divide

a) to separate into parts, cut into pieces

1) to divide into parties, i.e. be split into factions

b) to distribute

1) a thing among people

2) bestow, impart

God imparts to every man of the Body of Christ a measure , greek word metron:

measure, an instrument for measuring

a) a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid

b) a graduated staff for measuring, a measuring rod

c) proverbially, the rule or standard of judgment

2) determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit

a) the required measure, the due, fit, measure

a determined amount of Faith

Faith has been assigned to each or every member of His Body, though it varies in degree's as fruit is variable Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

However each member of Christ's Body who are made Righteous or Just by Christ's Faithfulness shall receive from Him Faith to believe in Him ! 12

 

[Davy]

This sounds unlearned friend.

For you to be believable, you first have to have done your own study in all of God's Word.

Apostle Paul before Jesus converted him on the road to Damascus (Acts 9), was following the blind Pharisees, and had authority to hunt down Christians, which was what he was doing on the road to Damascus. Saul held the coats of those Jews that stoned Christ's prophet Stephen. That of course was before... Jesus directly intervened in Saul's life, and converted him.

 

[brightfame52]

For you to be believable, you first have to have done your own study in all of God's Word.

Apostle Paul before Jesus converted him on the road to Damascus (Acts 9), was following the blind Pharisees, and had authority to hunt down Christians, which was what he was doing on the road to Damascus. Saul held the coats of those Jews that stoned Christ's prophet Stephen. That of course was before... Jesus directly intervened in Saul's life, and converted him.

You lost me, do you know what you talking about ? What did the atoning death of Christ accomplish ?

 

[Davy]

You lost me, do you know what you talking about ? What did the atoning death of Christ accomplish ?

That was your response to my post #181.

So yes, I know what I'm talking about.