22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[jeffweeder]

This brings up an interesting point. Peter indicates there that Paul wrote about the same kind of things that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3. Yet, I see some Premils who deny that the destruction accompanying the day of the Lord described in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is the same as the destruction accompanying the day of the Lord described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. If that isn't doctrinal bias, I don't know what is.

How true.
Simply both Peter and Paul are teaching the Lords own word regarding the promise of his coming and of the end of the age.

Paul- 1 Thess 4

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death].

 

[The Light]

It is 100% true. It is your interpretation that is messed up. This is a classic example of manipulating Scripture to fit your doctrine. Clearly, both the method and the doctrine are wrong, thus the conclusion is wrong. William E Cox says in his book Biblical Studies in Final Things: “the futurist arbitrarily places a gap between the sixty-nine and seventieth weeks of Daniels’ prophecy. He does this without one verse of Scripture or one iota of historical data to back up his argument.”

Cox must have missed this verse.

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. The clincher is: there is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

I wonder why Daniel went to the trouble to say that the Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks. If it all runs like you claim, are we supposed to disregard what is written and turn the usual blind eye to the truth.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

That's a good illustration. Now let's sweeten it up a little bit. What if we were told that we will know where the journey was supposed to end if we started at the mile marker where the decree to rebuild the highway began. That will put us at the correct location. It seems that many are using the wrong decree and have therefore the wrong starting point 13 miles from the correct starting point. Then you found out everything is based on the wrong information. Turns out the Mustang GT crashed and didn't reach the prophesied destination. We know the Mustang will reach the destination in the future but first the Chevy Camero is going to have a long journey. Once the Camaro reaches it journey God will turn His attention back to the Mustang.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Listen. Your teacher Chris Gedges false teachings have already been dispatched by the truth.

I don't attempt to have the last word, even when dealing with ignorant and self-declared champions of truth. As for these men. They are my friends - not followers. I respect them as they respect me.

 

[RLT63]

Ok. Thanks. Can you expound them in your own words? Please do not give me other men's opinions. They cannot respond when their error is exposed.

You know, I admit there is more than 1 view that could be valid. There is a good case for Amillenielism but it's not the only possibility. You and some others here are convinced that your view is the only view and everyone else is ignorant and can't think for themselves. It's like talking about creation to an evolutionist. There is no point. No matter what evidence I might provide you have already dismissed it before you see it.

 

[WPM]

You know, I admit there is more than 1 view that could be valid. There is a good case for Amillenielism but it's not the only possibility. You and some others here are convinced that your view is the only view and everyone else is ignorant and can't think for themselves. It's like talking about creation to an evolutionist. There is no point. No matter what evidence I might provide you have already dismissed it before you see it.

Ok. I will take that as a white flag. If you were confident you would give it. The fact is: Pretrib does not have one single proof text. I suspect you know that, thus your reluctance to response. It is easy hiding behind your online teachers that mislead you.

 

[jeffweeder]

I wonder why Daniel went to the trouble to say that the Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks.

Context.
Because Daniel just got through telling you that Messiah was going to be revealed after 69 weeks.
Add the time it took to accomplish his purpose in being revealed as Messiah and you have a cut off date after the 69 weeks.

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.


Messiah revealed to Israel after 69 weeks. Please tell us you agree.
He does not arrive and do nothing after 69 weeks. His role as Messiah is to shed his blood in the 70th week and bring about the fulfillment of eternal redemption below


24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.

He accomplished all that he came to do in the specified time.

Jn 17
Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

[jeffweeder]

You know, I admit there is more than 1 view that could be valid. There is a good case for Amillenielism but it's not the only possibility. You and some others here are convinced that your view is the only view and everyone else is ignorant and can't think for themselves. It's like talking about creation to an evolutionist. There is no point. No matter what evidence I might provide you have already dismissed it before you see it.

Just let the scriptures quoted on the subject have the final say.

 

[RLT63]

Ok. I will take that as a white flag. If you were confident you would give it. The fact is: Pretrib does not have one single proof text. I suspect you known that, thus your reluctance to response. It is easy hiding behind your online teachers that mislead you.

My teachers weren't online. I guess you never read The Coming Prince? The Coming Prince: The Marvelous Prophecy of Daniel's Seventy Weeks Concerning the Antichrist https://a.co/d/3GxRkJf

 

[The Light]

I don't attempt to have the last word, even when dealing with ignorant and self-declared champions of truth. As for these men. They are my friends - not followers. I respect them as they respect me.

Great. You post a fabricated falsified chart, along with false dates, and an incorrect decree. You can have your time at the head of the table now. I'll stand on the truth which you seem to have very little regard for.

 

[The Light]

Context.
Because Daniel just got through telling you that Messiah was going to be revealed after 69 weeks.
Add the time it took to accomplish his purpose in being revealed as Messiah and you have a cut off date after the 69 weeks.

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.


Messiah revealed to Israel after 69 weeks. Please tell us you agree.
He does not arrive and do nothing after 69 weeks. His role as Messiah is to shed his blood in the 70th week and bring about the fulfillment of eternal redemption below


24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.

He accomplished all that he came to do in the specified time.

Jn 17
Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

You might want to check which decree your teachers are using. You will find that it is not the correct decree. No, let me reword that. It is not the correct decree.

 

[RLT63]

Listen. Your teacher Chris Gedges false teachings have already been dispatched by the truth. His attempt to use the wrong decree to prove when the Messiah came was proven wrong. Luke 3 proves his date of 27 AD for the Messiah is wrong. The fact that the Passover falls on Wednesday in 30 AD proves that cannot be the year Messiah is crucified, despite his falsifying data. All these teachings have been proven false.

I will be happy to prove all things you believe are false if you have anything.

I tend to agree with some of your posts but it's interesting that Passover was on Wednesday in 30 AD. I think Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday. Have you ever seen the Wednesday model?

 

[covenantee]

You might want to check which decree your teachers are using. You will find that it is not the correct decree. No, let me reword that. It is not the correct decree.

As an infallible exegete of the Word, you should easily be able to identify someone of the true Church between 100 AD and 1800 AD who agrees with you that Christ did not fulfill Daniel 9:24.

Who would that someone be?

Let's cue the Jeopardy theme song while we wait for the answer.

Patience is virtuous but mine isn't infinite.

 

[jeffweeder]

You might want to check which decree your teachers are using. You will find that it is not the correct decree. No, let me reword that. It is not the correct decree.

Don't have any teachers unlike you. I just read my bible and saw all the pieces fall into place.
Why not comment on v25 arrival of Messiah after 69 weeks instead of avoiding dialogue on it. Jesus/Messiah accomplishment of our atonement can only occur AFTER 69 weeks right?

 

[WPM]

My teachers weren't online. I guess you never read The Coming Prince? The Coming Prince: The Marvelous Prophecy of Daniel's Seventy Weeks Concerning the Antichrist https://a.co/d/3GxRkJf

I do not do links. You are wasting your time. Take the time and let the Holy Spirit show you, not your mentors. They are wrong.

 

[WPM]

Great. You post a fabricated falsified chart, along with false dates, and an incorrect decree. You can have your time at the head of the table now. I'll stand on the truth which you seem to have very little regard for.

Ok then, show us where the Bible teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-year tribulation followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?

 

[WPM]

Cox must have missed this verse.

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.



I wonder why Daniel went to the trouble to say that the Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks. If it all runs like you claim, are we supposed to disregard what is written and turn the usual blind eye to the truth.

That's a good illustration. Now let's sweeten it up a little bit. What if we were told that we will know where the journey was supposed to end if we started at the mile marker where the decree to rebuild the highway began. That will put us at the correct location. It seems that many are using the wrong decree and have therefore the wrong starting point 13 miles from the correct starting point. Then you found out everything is based on the wrong information. Turns out the Mustang GT crashed and didn't reach the prophesied destination. We know the Mustang will reach the destination in the future but first the Chevy Camero is going to have a long journey. Once the Camaro reaches it journey God will turn His attention back to the Mustang.

The last time I looked at it: 69 1/2 weeks was after 69. Hello! Think about it before you post. You have not addressed the multiple contradictions that accompany the new doctrine you are running with that was invented by the Jesuits.

Your illustration is ridiculous. Like Pretrib, it doesn't make sense.

 

[WPM]

I found your post. There is so much useless baloney posted that I missed your question. looking at it now.

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

 

[WPM]

Great. You post a fabricated falsified chart, along with false dates, and an incorrect decree. You can have your time at the head of the table now. I'll stand on the truth which you seem to have very little regard for.

Instead of running your mouth off and continually ignoring simple questions: can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

 

[The Light]

Don't have any teachers unlike you. I just read my bible and saw all the pieces fall into place.
Why not comment on v25 arrival of Messiah after 69 weeks instead of avoiding dialogue on it. Jesus/Messiah accomplishment of our atonement can only occur AFTER 69 weeks right?

I'm am not sure what you are expecting. Messiah is cut after 69 weeks just like it says. As for the arrival of the Messiah, He arrives a specified time after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. The decree to rebuild was made on March 5, 444 BC. That is not the same decree or date that is being used by those pushing the false narrative that the 70th week of Daniel is complete. Do some homework if you want to know the truth. Find out for yourself. Look at the decrees.

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

 

[RLT63]

I do not do links. You are wasting your time. Take the time and let the Holy Spirit show you, not your mentors. They are wrong.

It's a link to a book. Have you ever read it?