22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Christian Gedge]

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

A bit like a bank manager who gives a 2000 year gap in our mortgage payments. We wanna know. ;)

 

[The Light]

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

By another example, are you saying that what is provided in the Word of God cannot be accepted until we find another example? I'm not sure what your issue is with the Word of God. Do you find it impossible to accept that Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks even though that is exactly what the Word of God says.

Do you have any other questions that do not challenge the written Word of God? I will be happy to disassemble all of your beliefs providing you are not challenging what is written. What else do you have?

 

[The Light]

A bit like a bank manager who gives a 2000 year gap in our mortgage payments. We wanna know. ;)

While you're here, do you have any other proof that Messiah was crucified in 30 AD? Can you falsify another chart?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's called the 2nd coming, not the third. The rapture is not the 2nd coming.

Tell that to Paul.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

When someone denies that a reference to the future "coming of the Lord" is the second coming, you know that the person is heavily influenced by doctrinal bias.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

By another example, are you saying that what is provided in the Word of God cannot be accepted until we find another example? I'm not sure what your issue is with the Word of God.

He has no issue at all with the Word of God. He has a lot of issues with your interpretations of the Word of God.

Do you find it impossible to accept that Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks even though that is exactly what the Word of God says.

Why would you ask a question like this when he does believe that the Messiah is cut off after the 69th week? What is doesn't say specifically is how long after the 69th week He would be cut off. Turns out it was about 3 1/2 years later.

Do you have any other questions that do not challenge the written Word of God? I will be happy to disassemble all of your beliefs providing you are not challenging what is written. What else do you have?

You sure have an arrogant attitude for someone who has proven NOTHING and makes some of the weakest arguments I've ever seen in my life.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

None of this makes sense. Pretribs do not come close to answering in any kind of credible, coherent, reasonable or convincing way how there is a rapture of the Church followed by a prolonged tribulation followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. And, yes, most don't even try because they know it is not in the Book! There is no explicit or vague Scripture that teaches this.

Yep. Pretribs cobble together many unrelated passages and come up with a convoluted doctrine out of it that I find to be completely incoherent. They have ZERO explicit scripture that they can use to support their doctrine. It is FULL of speculations and assumptions.

 

[WPM]

By another example, are you saying that what is provided in the Word of God cannot be accepted until we find another example? I'm not sure what your issue is with the Word of God. Do you find it impossible to accept that Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks even though that is exactly what the Word of God says.

Do you have any other questions that do not challenge the written Word of God? I will be happy to disassemble all of your beliefs providing you are not challenging what is written. What else do you have?

It is 100% true. It is your interpretation that is messed up. This is a classic example of manipulating Scripture to fit your doctrine. Clearly, both the method and the doctrine are wrong, thus the conclusion is wrong. William E Cox says in his book Biblical Studies in Final Things: “the futurist arbitrarily places a gap between the sixty-nine and seventieth weeks of Daniels’ prophecy. He does this without one verse of Scripture or one iota of historical data to back up his argument.”

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. The clincher is: there is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is not true
Paul clarifies the day of our glorification in his second letter to them. He includes what happens to the ungodly on the day the Lord comes to glorify us.


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

Amen, Jeff. Exactly. When else will He come "to be glorified in His saints...and to be marveled at among all who believed" except on the day we are all changed and are caught up to Him "in the air"? Any objective person will acknowledge that 2 Thess 1:10 is referring to the day when "the rapture" will occur. Once someone acknowledges that, then they can read verses 7-9 to see what else will happen on that day.

By understanding that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is all about one event rather than thinking 1 Thess 4:14-17 is one event and 1 Thess 5:1-9 is another (such a terrible place for a chapter break), it can be seen that we will be glorified and caught up to Christ on the same day that He destroys all of His enemies.

 

[WPM]

While you're here, do you have any other proof that Messiah was crucified in 30 AD? Can you falsify another chart?

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is 100% true. It is your interpretation that is messed up. This is a classic example of manipulating Scripture to fit your doctrine. Clearly, both the method and the doctrine are wrong, thus the conclusion is wrong. William E Cox says in his book Biblical Studies in Final Things: “the futurist arbitrarily places a gap between the sixty-nine and seventieth weeks of Daniels’ prophecy. He does this without one verse of Scripture or one iota of historical data to back up his argument.”

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. The clincher is: there is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

Great analogy. Daniel 9:24 says 70 weeks were given to accomplish the six things listed in that verse. And we all know that the beginning point of the 70 weeks was the decree to rebuild Jerusalem that was made 483 years before Jesus was revealed as the Messiah.

So, with that in mind, based on dispensational thinking it's been around 2,500 years so far for those six things to be fulfilled which is well past the 490 years that was given for those things to be fulfilled. Which would mean that prophecy failed to be fulfilled as written. God forbid. But, of course, we know that it was fulfilled exactly as written within the time frame given.

 

[covenantee]

While you're here, do you have any other proof that Messiah was crucified in 30 AD? Can you falsify another chart?

As an infallible exegete of the Word, you should easily be able to identify someone of the true Church between 100 AD and 1800 AD who agrees with you that Christ did not fulfill Daniel 9:24.

Who would that someone be?

 

[jeffweeder]

Amen, Jeff. Exactly. When else will He come "to be glorified in His saints...and to be marveled at among all who believed" except on the day we are all changed and are caught up to Him "in the air"? Any objective person will acknowledge that 2 Thess 1:10 is referring to the day when "the rapture" will occur. Once someone acknowledges that, then they can read verses 7-9 to see what else will happen on that day.

By understanding that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is all about one event rather than thinking 1 Thess 4:14-17 is one event and 1 Thess 5:1-9 is another (such a terrible place for a chapter break), it can be seen that we will be glorified and caught up to Christ on the same day that He destroys all of His enemies.

Fully Agree.
We have 4 pages/chapters in a row that tell you all you need to know about his coming and its consequences on the world.
1thess 4-1Thess 5- 2Thess 1-2Thess 2.

2Pet 3
15 And consider the patience of our Lord [His delay in judging and avenging wrongs] as salvation [that is, allowing time for more to be saved]; just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him [by God], 16 speaking about these things as he does in all of his letters. In which there are some things that are difficult to understand, which the untaught and unstable [who have fallen into error] twist and misinterpret, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, [let me warn you] beloved, knowing these things beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men [who distort doctrine] and fall from your own steadfastness [of mind, knowledge, truth, and faith], 18 but grow [spiritually mature] in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory (honor, majesty, splendor), both now and to the day of eternity.
Amen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Fully Agree.
We have 4 pages/chapters in a row that tell you all you need to know about his coming and its consequences on the world.
1thess 4-1Thess 5- 2Thess 1-2Thess 2.

2Pet 3
15 And consider the patience of our Lord [His delay in judging and avenging wrongs] as salvation [that is, allowing time for more to be saved]; just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him [by God], 16 speaking about these things as he does in all of his letters. In which there are some things that are difficult to understand, which the untaught and unstable [who have fallen into error] twist and misinterpret, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, [let me warn you] beloved, knowing these things beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men [who distort doctrine] and fall from your own steadfastness [of mind, knowledge, truth, and faith], 18 but grow [spiritually mature] in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory (honor, majesty, splendor), both now and to the day of eternity.
Amen.

This brings up an interesting point. Peter indicates there that Paul wrote about the same kind of things that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3. Yet, I see some Premils who deny that the destruction accompanying the day of the Lord described in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is the same as the destruction accompanying the day of the Lord described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. If that isn't doctrinal bias, I don't know what is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As an infallible exegete of the Word, you should easily be able to identify someone of the true Church between 100 AD and 1800 AD who agrees with you that Christ did not fulfill Daniel 9:24.

Who would that someone be?

Let's cue the Jeopardy theme song while we wait for the answer.

 

[The Light]

Exactly bro. Spot on!

Listen. Your teacher Chris Gedges false teachings have already been dispatched by the truth. His attempt to use the wrong decree to prove when the Messiah came was proven wrong. Luke 3 proves his date of 27 AD for the Messiah is wrong. The fact that the Passover falls on Wednesday in 30 AD proves that cannot be the year Messiah is crucified, despite his falsifying data. All these teachings have been proven false.

I will be happy to prove all things you believe are false if you have anything.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Listen. Your teacher Chris Gedges false teachings have already been dispatched by the truth. His attempt to use the wrong decree to prove when the Messiah came was proven wrong. Luke 3 proves his date of 27 AD for the Messiah is wrong. The fact that the Passover falls on Wednesday in 30 AD proves that cannot be the year Messiah is crucified, despite his falsifying data. All these teachings have been proven false.

You have proven NOTHING except that you have strong opinions (as most of us here do). So, congratulations on that.

I will be happy to prove all things you believe are false if you have anything.

If he has anything? LOL! I'm sure you have so many beliefs that he believes are false that it will be difficult to even know where to start.

 

[The Light]

LOL. You are incapable of refuting his belief (which I share). That is obvious to me. I find most of your arguments to be very incoherent.

Of course you do. Since I usually provide scripture in my posts I am sure you lack understanding. Try this.

Matthew 25
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course you do. Since I usually provide scripture in my posts I am sure you lack understanding. Try this.

Matthew 25
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Do you think just quoting scripture alone somehow proves something that you believe? Can you please tell me why you posted this passage and what you think it means?

 

[WPM]

Listen. Your teacher Chris Gedges false teachings have already been dispatched by the truth. His attempt to use the wrong decree to prove when the Messiah came was proven wrong. Luke 3 proves his date of 27 AD for the Messiah is wrong. The fact that the Passover falls on Wednesday in 30 AD proves that cannot be the year Messiah is crucified, despite his falsifying data. All these teachings have been proven false.

I will be happy to prove all things you believe are false if you have anything.

First, Christian Gedge is a tremendous teacher.
Second, how about starting with the posts above that you have ignored?

 

[The Light]

First, Christian Gedge is a tremendous teacher.
Second, how about starting with the posts above that you have ignored?

I found your post. There is so much useless baloney posted that I missed your question. looking at it now.