22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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jeffweeder

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Daniel 9:20-27
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Thessalonians 5:9
Revelation 3:10

The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period.

This is not true
Paul clarifies the day of our glorification in his second letter to them. He includes what happens to the ungodly on the day the Lord comes to glorify us.


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].
 
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WPM

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It's called the 2nd coming, not the third. The rapture is not the 2nd coming. And no matter what I post you are not going to accept it. First you have to understand Daniel's 70th week has not happened yet.
Gabriel’s Zinger
Daniel, originally deported as a teenager (now near the end of the Babylonian captivity), was reading in the Book of Jeremiah. He understood that the seventy years of servitude were almost over and he began to pray for his people.

The Angel Gabriel interrupted Daniel’s prayer and gave him a four-verse prophecy that is unquestionably the most remarkable passage in the entire Bible: Daniel 9:24–27.

These four verses include the following segments:

  • 9:24 – The Scope of the Entire Prophecy;
  • 9:25 – The 69 Weeks;
  • 9:26 – An Interval between the 69th and 70th Week;
  • 9:27 – The 70th Week.
The Scope (Dan 9:24)
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy Place .

— Daniel 9:24

The idiom of a “week” of years was common in Israel as a “sabbath for the land,” in which the land was to lie fallow every seventh year.[2] It was their failure to obey these laws that led to God sending them into captivity under the Babylonians.[3]

Note that the focus of this passage is upon “thy people and upon thy holy city,” that is, upon Israel and Jerusalem. (It is not directed to the Church.)

The scope of this prophecy includes a broad list of things which clearly have yet to be completed.

The First 69 Weeks (Dan 9:25)
A very specific prediction occurs in verse 25:

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

— Daniel 9:25

This includes a mathematical prophecy. As we have noted in previous articles, the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;[4] 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The “Messiah the Prince” in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, “The Messiah the King.” (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)

Bull’s-Eye!
The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.[5] (The emphasis in the verse on “the street” and “the wall” was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: “Mine hour is not yet come”.[6]

The Triumphal Entry
Then, one day, He meticulously arranges it.[7] On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

— Zechariah 9:9

Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.[8] However, Jesus endorsed it!

I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

— Luke 19:40

This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.[9]

The Precision of Prophecy
When we examine the period between March 14, 445 B.C. and April 6, 32 A.D., and correct for leap years, we discover that it is 173,880 days exactly, to the very day!

How could Daniel have known this in advance? How could anyone have contrived to have this detailed prediction documented over three centuries in advance? But there’s more.

The Interval (Dan 9:26)
There appears to be a gap between the 69th week (verse 25) and the 70th week (verse 27):

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

— Daniel 9:26

The sixty-two “weeks” follow the initial seven, so verse 26 deals with events after 69th week, but before the 70th. These events include the Messiah being killed and the city and sanctuary being destroyed.

As Jesus approached the city on the donkey, He also predicted the destruction of Jerusalem:

For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

— Luke 19:43–44

The Messiah was, of course, executed at the Crucifixion…”but not for Himself.”

The city and the sanctuary were destroyed 38 years later when the Roman legions under Titus Vespasian leveled the city of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, precisely as Daniel and Jesus had predicted. In fact, as one carefully examines Jesus’ specific words, it appears that He held them accountable to know this astonishing prophecy in Daniel 9! “Because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.”

The 70th Week
There is a remaining seven-year period to be fulfilled. This period is the most documented period in the entire Bible. The Book of Revelation, Chapters 6 through 19, is essentially a detailing of that climactic period.
Daniel’s 70 Weeks: The Precision of Prophecy – Chuck Missler – Koinonia House

Before I reply in more detail, I need to highlight, this is not your own writing. This is copied again from another outside link. This is what Pretribbers do. This is more proof that Pretribbers cannot think for themselves. They just rabbit what they have been taught. That is because Pretrib doesn't make sense or can it been gleaned from the Word of God, it must be taught. Sad! Also, I asked you to address all 4 passages and you jumped to Daniel 9, which makes no mention of your 2nd and 3rd comings or a 7 year trib. Telling! This may explain why so many people are abandoning this error.

Do you accept that there are parousia passages that relate to the catching away ("rapture")? These definitely do not relate to Christ's first coming. If so, then you believe in a 2nd and 3rd coming. The 2nd to the sky and the 3rd to the earth.
 
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WPM

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This is not true
Paul clarifies the day of our glorification in his second letter to them. He includes what happens to the ungodly on the day the Lord comes to glorify us.


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

All Pretribbers can do is point you to their teachers (links), who will never come on forums like this and let their error be examined. That is just a cut-and-paste he did.
 

jeffweeder

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All Pretribbers can do is point you to their teachers (links), who will never come on forums like this and let their error be examined. That is just a cut-and-paste he did.

Yeah, I spotted that in another post about the 70 weeks. Up until that point I thought it was his post.
 

The Light

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Many years ago, I worked at a defense electronics company and at that time a German Engineer/Scientist asked me the same question. I said I didn't know. He told me that he was certain that I had German ancestry, and began to tell me the meaning of my last name. Not wishing to reveal my last name online, I'll tell you the rest when we meet in heaven. :)
I knew you were German because I could see it in your analytical patterns. None of this weak miss the details and don't use the details stuff that I usually see. I'm pretty sure your math skills are way better than average.

I think the Tribulation is an interesting subject and I must admit that I need a bit more study before I can be dogmatic. Based on my own study and many on-line discussions I continue to wonder whether there might be two distinct realities, both of which are called "Tribulation?" On the one hand, we have the persecution of believers down through history, which is called "Tribulation." And on the other hand, we seem to have the persecution of the Jewish people, also called "Tribulation" in the Bible.
There is yet the 70th week of Daniel to go. Seventy weeks are determined upon the people of Daniel and only 69 weeks have happened as Messiah was cut off.

I need to sort this out for myself before I can truly say that I am pre, mid, or post trib. I think I am post-trib but in your mind, I might be pretrib depending on how you have sorted things out.

You are definitely post trib as that is what I saw in your video. The reason I wanted to see your video is because I thought you were post trib but when I saw top shelf analysis and also a mind and heart open to the truth, I could not process how you were not pre trib. Don't get me wrong, there are verses that show a pre trib coming and verses that show a post trib coming but pre trib carries the trump card. Just a little something for you to ponder. The reason there are verses pointing to a pre trib coming and verses pointing to a post trib coming is that there will be more than one coming of the Son of Man. One coming will be like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood and one coming will be like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. One coming will be at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming will be at the last trump. One coming will be for the Gentiles and one coming for the 12 tribes (but not the nation of Israel, they remain in a place of protection during Gods wrath). The fig tree has to harvests.

And don't look this gift horse in the mouth.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars in these groups of verses should give you a solid factual marker. With this marker and verses around it you can determine that Jesus comes at the 6th seal. You can determine that the great tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. So if you have the tribulation happening in the wrath of God (the trumpets) you are riding the wrong horse. Then build the end time scenario based on these end time facts. Don't let a misjudgment overrule these facts. Then do things like figure out who is harvested at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. It's all in the details. I have no doubt you will get it as we have been given all the facts and details we need. All the best to you and look forward to seeing you in heaven so we can trade last names.:)
 

The Light

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All Pretribbers can do is point you to their teachers (links), who will never come on forums like this and let their error be examined. That is just a cut-and-paste he did.
I will be happy to disassemble all of your mistaken beliefs if that's what you are looking for. And I have no teacher, save one, so I don't have any links to point to.
Where would you like to start?
 
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covenantee

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I will be happy to disassemble all of your mistaken beliefs if that's what you are looking for. And I have no teacher, save one, so I don't have any links to point to.
Where would you like to start?
How about you start by assembling your decapitated 70th week back together with the other 69?

Then you can go from there.
 

WPM

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I will be happy to disassemble all of your mistaken beliefs if that's what you are looking for. And I have no teacher, save one, so I don't have any links to point to.
Where would you like to start?

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?
 

RLT63

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Before I reply in more detail, I need to highlight, this is not your own writing. This is copied again from another outside link. This is what Pretribbers do. This is more proof that Pretribbers cannot think for themselves. They just rabbit what they have been taught. That is because Pretrib doesn't make sense or can it been gleaned from the Word of God, it must be taught. Sad! Also, I asked you to address all 4 passages and you jumped to Daniel 9, which makes no mention of your 2nd and 3rd comings or a 7 year trib. Telling! This may explain why so many people are abandoning this error.

Do you accept that there are parousia passages that relate to the catching away ("rapture")? These definitely do not relate to Christ's first coming. If so, then you believe in a 2nd and 3rd coming. The 2nd to the sky and the 3rd to the earth.
I will post the verses that refer to the rapture and the verses that refer to the 2nd coming tomorrow. I'm busy right now. Yes I linked an article explaining Daniel's 70 weeks
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Matthew 27. Has been posted many times.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Where does this say that all dead OT saints were resurrected at that time? And where does it indicate that they had incorruptible/immortal bodies? If that was all the dead OT saints it would have been a logistical nightmare. Imagine THAT many suddenly showing up in Jerusalem. How would that have even been possible? No, it's not talking there about the resurrection of all OT saints. You are mistaken.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Why can you not address counter arguments? Please stop avoiding. It is only serving to expose your theology.
He clearly has no interest in doing that and will never do it. I highly recommend not wasting any more time talking to him. It's up to you, but it just doesn't seem worth it at this point.

It must be interesting for people in his life when they talk to him if he's like this in normal every day conversation.

Truth7t7's Friend: You had said 1 + 1 = 3 but if you take one of something and add one more to it, you clearly end up with 2 of those things, not 3.

Truth7t7: You don't believe in a future human man Antichrist man of sin beast person, so you are going to hell.

Truth7t7's Friend: Uh, what does that have to do with what I said?

Truth7t7: Nothing written in the Bible has ever happened yet in the past. It will all happen in the future. If you believe that anything has ever happened in the past then you are a partial preterist!

Truth7t7's Friend: But, about your issues with basic math. Can we talk about that?

Truth7t7: You are stuck in your 66-70 AD preterist reformed eschatology! It's dangerous! You're not watching out for this human being Antichrist person dude. He's going to come and get you because you're not watching for him.

Truth7t7's Friend: ?
 
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jeffweeder

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I will post the verses that refer to the rapture and the verses that refer to the 2nd coming tomorrow. I'm busy right now.

I think you will find that the 2Thess 1 passage I quoted earlier will show us being raptured and glorified and them receiving vengeance will happen at one appearing.
 

WPM

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I will post the verses that refer to the rapture and the verses that refer to the 2nd coming tomorrow. I'm busy right now. Yes I linked an article explaining Daniel's 70 weeks

Ok. Thanks. Can you expound them in your own words? Please do not give me other men's opinions. They cannot respond when their error is exposed.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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LOL. You are the one insisting that "he" and "him" proves that the beast is a literal man. But when we present the detail attributed to this man you symbolize it away. How convient! What then do these 7 heads and 10 Horns represent?
Mystery Babylon is described as a harlot and as "she" and "her", so I guess he must believe that Mystery Babylon is a literal woman then? If he used his flawed logic consistently, that is what he would have to believe.
 
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