22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm not even denying that it's outside the realm of possibility, but how possible is it really? Seems like only a remote possibility to me.

Do you really think it's reasonable that the ten kings "would receive authority as kings along with the beast" for a literal 60 minutes? What could they even do in that short amount of time?

You know it's not going to make you have to change all of your beliefs if you acknowledge that the "one hour" is just a figurative representation of an indefinite amount of time, right? Not sure why you want to cling so hard to your apparent belief that every time reference, even in a highly symbolic book like Revelation, must be taken literally.

okay, so I’m not sure you’ve followed my conversation. 1. I’m not beholden to ANY eschatological framework at this point. 2. It’s no more unlikely than a talking donkey. 3. I’m not either or as you are. Not everything about prophetic passages must all ONLY be symbolic or all ONLY literal.

 

[RLT63]

He is making it very clear that he doesn't believe Jesus is God. Why are Amils the only ones calling him out on it? That's disappointing.

I never said otherwise. I was a Premil once. But, once I studied things closer, I became quite convinced that Amillennialism is true. As you can tell. And, again, I won't apologize for being passionate about that. If you're not passionate about this subject, so be it. Doesn't mean it's wrong that I am.

I'm not attacking anyone. I'm not talking any differently than many of the Premils do here. So, do you believe they are attacking Amils when they talk to us?

They may be. I didn't read all the posts I mostly just responded to the ones addressed to me. I've spent most of my time debating Unitarians

 

[Timtofly]

I will tell you how to refute a pretrib rapture as it just happened to me that made me have to discard it after 16 years. When the apostle talks about the dead rising first and we who remain being caught up then, if this is the first resurrection and it’s a pretrib gathering, it cannot fit with the verses in Revelation 20 that say: “this is the first resurrection” because it states that those who refused the mark are IN the first resurrection.
It cannot be reconciled.
I will wait to see if anyone who is pretrib has seen and dealt with it in a way that reconciles it but it appears to me to be irreconcilable.

My next step has to be looking into some variation of midtrib…I’ve never looked into midtrib at all.

The first resurrection is physical. Lazarus had a first resurrection, he physically came out of the grave. It is not about 2 different days or hours. It is about a physical resurrection. The second death is spiritual into the LOF. The second resurrection would be coming out of the LOF.

 

[Truth7t7]

First, those who become Christians before the Second Coming will be raised and given immorality. The 144K, while sanctified by God, will not have accepted Jesus as savior until after he returns. These remain mortal until the end.

Your claims are false, as you have been shown several times, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

You disregard the Lord's return in fire, making way for the false teachings that you believe and promote

You deny the very deity and pre-existence of Jesus Christ, as I have been watching your postings, you're not to be take seriously

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[Truth7t7]

Blah blah blah. You're a broken record.

The broken record of, truth, truth, truth, that you despise and don't want to hear, as you "Deny" a future tribulation will exist

Scripture clearly identifies the time-times-half a time as being "Literal" 1260 days or 3.5 years

You don't want to acknowledge this future 3.5 year tribulation, because you believe and teach it was fulfilled in the reformed preterist 66-70AD Roman armies in Jerusalem's destruction

Daniel 12:7KJV
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 12:6 & 14KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The Woman in the wilderness during the future tribulation, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The first resurrection is physical. Lazarus had a first resurrection, he physically came out of the grave. It is not about 2 different days or hours. It is about a physical resurrection. The second death is spiritual into the LOF. The second resurrection would be coming out of the LOF.

Sorry, I didn’t quite follow that…

 

[Truth7t7]

Sorry, I didn’t quite follow that…

Your not alone, smiles!

 

[Truth7t7]

The first resurrection is physical. Lazarus had a first resurrection, he physically came out of the grave. It is not about 2 different days or hours. It is about a physical resurrection. The second death is spiritual into the LOF. The second resurrection would be coming out of the LOF.

Absolute confusion and chaos

 

[Truth7t7]

Blah blah blah. You're a broken record.

WPM denies the figure seen below will be a future human man, do you also deny this future human man, please explain?

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[The Light]

First of all, I could be wrong and I am willing to be corrected. But I see a strong correlation between the events of 70AD and the seals.

I found the rapture video on page 2. So I saw your pastor is post tribulation. It was kind of funny when he said he was post tribulation, he said don't stop video, if you don't believe in a post tribulation rapture, you might learn something anyway. I watched several of the videos. He is really a very good teacher. What surprises me is he has a great eye for detail that most don't have. Learned a detail or two from him as I thought I would. He is missing it on the rapture and the tribulation period though.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

LOL. But, is it reasonable to think that is what Revelation 17:12 is saying? I don't believe so at all. Do you have something against the idea of time periods being represented figuratively in scripture or something? In a book like Revelation, why would you not allow for that possibility? That makes no sense.

well…yeah, I think it’s reasonable. I do not think it unreasonable.
Hmm…I think maybe I DO have something against stated periods of time in scripture being symbols…
I don’t think it’s wholly reasonable to take a verse that, to me, states that God is outside of time so that a day is the same as a thousand years to Him and vice versa, and to then take a passage that mentions a thousand years SIX times and to say, hmm…could be a year meant there or could be a thousand years, or heck, could be 10,000 years…
The fact that it’s almost OVERLY repeated would make me think, okay, I’m pretty sure if God repeats that six times in a short space, He’s belaboring it to the point of…exactitude.

As to your last, I do not refuse to allow for the possibility that some prophecy (and dreams) is symbolic. Of course it sometimes is symbolic. 7 fat cows can be a symbol of 7 abundant years. A horn can be a symbol for a man. I just don’t think it’s reasonable to have something said six times in rapid succession and to then do what some do to that.

 

[Truth7t7]

well…yeah, I think it’s reasonable. I do not think it unreasonable.
Hmm…I think maybe I DO have something against stated periods of time in scripture being symbols…
I don’t think it’s wholly reasonable to take a verse that, to me, states that God is outside of time so that a day is the same as a thousand years to Him and vice versa, and to then take a passage that mentions a thousand years SIX times and to say, hmm…could be a year meant there or could be a thousand years, or heck, could be 10,000 years…
The fact that it’s almost OVERLY repeated would make me think, okay, I’m pretty sure if God repeats that six times in a short space, He’s belaboring it to the point of…exactitude.

As to your last, I do not refuse to allow for the possibility that some prophecy (and dreams) is symbolic. Of course it sometimes is symbolic. 7 fat cows can be a symbol of 7 abundant years. A horn can be a symbol for a man. I just don’t think it’s reasonable to have something said six times in rapid succession and to do what some do to that.

Does God own the cattle on just 1,000 hills or possibly "All" hills?

Psalm 50:10KJV
10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

 

[RLT63]

Since abandoning Premillennialism I have engaged in many debates/discussions on the matter of the second coming, end-times and the here-after. These are some of the major weaknesses I find in the Premillennialism doctrine, and are strong reasons why I believe the dogma should be rejected.

I want to list some of the issues that forced me to eventually abandon Premillennialism and embrace Amillennialism. My main reason for abandoning Premil was the severe lack of corroboration. I had a major issue with that! What is more: I had multiple problem-texts as a Premil that showed the coming of Christ to be climactic and all-consummating. I have presented a lot of these questions in discussions over the years (since 2000) on boards like this and have failed to get any satisfactory corroboration for these questions. What I normally get is either blatant avoidance of the issues or "Revelation 20 says." This is so frustrating because Revelation 20 does not corroborate Revelation 20. Amils on the other hand tend to use the biblical premise "what saith the Scripture." The only conclusion I could arrive at is that the Premil interpretation of Revelation 20 is in error, it conflicts with numerous Scripture, and enjoys NO other serious scriptural support.

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and very much disagree with this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.

(2) Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.

(3) The detail Premil attributes to Revelation 20 compared to what the actual text explicitly says is day and night. Revelation 20 does not remotely say what Premil attribute to it. Many extravagant characteristics, events and ideas are inserted into Revelation 20 that do not exist in the said chapter.

For example:

· For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Revelation 20 or any other passage in Scripture?
· Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that? The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation. It also shows the completion of the great commission ushers in the end of the world (Matthew 28:19-20). Scriptures tells us that “the longsuffering of our Lord” that marks the period before Jesus comes as a thief in the night “is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). There is no more salvation after that.
· They argue that the old covenant arrangement will be fully restarted in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such teaching.
· Premillennialists speak about the restoration of an elevated position for ethnic Israel on their future millennial earth. But a careful study of Revelation 20 teaches no such thing.
· They insist that glorified saints and mortal sinners will interact in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such a belief.
· They present their future millennium to be perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premil millennium. Their age is just 'more of the same'. There is more sin and sinners, more death and disease, more war and terror, more of the devil and his demons. The idyllic setting of the lamb enjoying sweet communion with the wolf, the bullock eating straw with the lion, the little kid-goat lying peaceably beside the leopard, the cow and the bear grazing happily together is quickly broken as the slaughter truck roar up from the temple. The Zadok priests quickly jump out and drag the unsuspecting animals aboard who had been lulled into a false-sense of security by Christ’s rod of iron rule. As the truck speeds off the millennial peace and harmony is broken forever by the bloody intent of the Zadok priests. When they arrive in Jerusalem they pointlessly slit the throats of the lambs, goats and bullocks because they are somehow needed as sin offerings, even though Jesus had made the final sacrifice for sin thousands of years previous.

(4) Premillennialists interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts numerous explicit climactic Scriptures. Premillennialists have to insert “a thousand years” in passage after passage where it does not exist. This is called adding unto Scripture, something forbidden in the Word of God (Deuteronomy 12:32 and Revelation 22:18).

(5) Premil is always explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament Scripture (the fuller revelation) by the shadow, type and vaguer Old Testament. It uses indistinct or misunderstood Old Testament Scripture to negate and reject clear and explicit New Testament Scripture that teaches otherwise. We Christians have the benefit of the New Testament to explain what is difficult or obscure in the Old Testament. Christ has superseded the old covenant arrangement and now fulfils the new covenant arrangement as predicted. The New Testament is the greater revelation. The interpretation placed on the Old Testament by Christ and the New Testament writers override all other opinions and interpretations of man. As Augustine wrote: “The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.”

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbids their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

What is the preterist view of the end times? | GotQuestions.org

 

[RLT63]

Since abandoning Premillennialism I have engaged in many debates/discussions on the matter of the second coming, end-times and the here-after. These are some of the major weaknesses I find in the Premillennialism doctrine, and are strong reasons why I believe the dogma should be rejected.

I want to list some of the issues that forced me to eventually abandon Premillennialism and embrace Amillennialism. My main reason for abandoning Premil was the severe lack of corroboration. I had a major issue with that! What is more: I had multiple problem-texts as a Premil that showed the coming of Christ to be climactic and all-consummating. I have presented a lot of these questions in discussions over the years (since 2000) on boards like this and have failed to get any satisfactory corroboration for these questions. What I normally get is either blatant avoidance of the issues or "Revelation 20 says." This is so frustrating because Revelation 20 does not corroborate Revelation 20. Amils on the other hand tend to use the biblical premise "what saith the Scripture." The only conclusion I could arrive at is that the Premil interpretation of Revelation 20 is in error, it conflicts with numerous Scripture, and enjoys NO other serious scriptural support.

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and very much disagree with this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.

(2) Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.

(3) The detail Premil attributes to Revelation 20 compared to what the actual text explicitly says is day and night. Revelation 20 does not remotely say what Premil attribute to it. Many extravagant characteristics, events and ideas are inserted into Revelation 20 that do not exist in the said chapter.

For example:

· For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Revelation 20 or any other passage in Scripture?
· Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that? The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation. It also shows the completion of the great commission ushers in the end of the world (Matthew 28:19-20). Scriptures tells us that “the longsuffering of our Lord” that marks the period before Jesus comes as a thief in the night “is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). There is no more salvation after that.
· They argue that the old covenant arrangement will be fully restarted in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such teaching.
· Premillennialists speak about the restoration of an elevated position for ethnic Israel on their future millennial earth. But a careful study of Revelation 20 teaches no such thing.
· They insist that glorified saints and mortal sinners will interact in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such a belief.
· They present their future millennium to be perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premil millennium. Their age is just 'more of the same'. There is more sin and sinners, more death and disease, more war and terror, more of the devil and his demons. The idyllic setting of the lamb enjoying sweet communion with the wolf, the bullock eating straw with the lion, the little kid-goat lying peaceably beside the leopard, the cow and the bear grazing happily together is quickly broken as the slaughter truck roar up from the temple. The Zadok priests quickly jump out and drag the unsuspecting animals aboard who had been lulled into a false-sense of security by Christ’s rod of iron rule. As the truck speeds off the millennial peace and harmony is broken forever by the bloody intent of the Zadok priests. When they arrive in Jerusalem they pointlessly slit the throats of the lambs, goats and bullocks because they are somehow needed as sin offerings, even though Jesus had made the final sacrifice for sin thousands of years previous.

(4) Premillennialists interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts numerous explicit climactic Scriptures. Premillennialists have to insert “a thousand years” in passage after passage where it does not exist. This is called adding unto Scripture, something forbidden in the Word of God (Deuteronomy 12:32 and Revelation 22:18).

(5) Premil is always explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament Scripture (the fuller revelation) by the shadow, type and vaguer Old Testament. It uses indistinct or misunderstood Old Testament Scripture to negate and reject clear and explicit New Testament Scripture that teaches otherwise. We Christians have the benefit of the New Testament to explain what is difficult or obscure in the Old Testament. Christ has superseded the old covenant arrangement and now fulfils the new covenant arrangement as predicted. The New Testament is the greater revelation. The interpretation placed on the Old Testament by Christ and the New Testament writers override all other opinions and interpretations of man. As Augustine wrote: “The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.”

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbids their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

Is partial preterism biblical? What do partial preterists believe? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Truth7t7]

What is the preterist view of the end times? | GotQuestions.org

Yes WPM is a partial preterist, denying many future events seen in the Bible, namely a future great tribulation and a future literal human man as seen below

This partial preterist view in my opinion is a deceptive teaching, that will be setting the unaware up for the future evil to come "Dangerous" hiding the future Little Horn, Man Of Sin, The Beast, from man's thought and awareness "Scary"!

Those teaching falsely of a future Pre-Trib Rapture or Millennial Kingdom has "No Comparison" to the deception in denying this future literal human man, "No Comparison"!

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

Yes WPM denies the figure seen below will be a future literal human man

Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Does God own the cattle on just 1,000 hills or possibly "All" hills?

Psalm 50:10KJ
10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

But see, that’s not what I would say is a verse of symbolism. And, I don’t think you would think so either IF you weren’t so strenuously trying to argue a particular point. I do NOT have a problem with a…moving in and out of symbolism, like a portion being symbolic and a portion being not symbolic. Prophecy does work strangely and undulates between past, present and future and then back again.
But what you do here is, to my mind, trying to cram a size 10 foot into a size 6 shoe. The beasts are still beasts, the forest is still a forest, the cattle are still cattle, and the hills are still hills. The ONLY portion you say is symbolic is the number. So the ONLY part that’s symbolic is the part that you see as strengthening your argument. And, no one thinks there are ONLY a thousand hills on the whole earth. You don’t think that and neither do any men in here who see some things differently than you. So, as far as your arguments for and against things, this is not your strongest one. It’s pretty weak because, in my opinion, numbers standing for completely different numbers is not what symbolism is about nor how symbolism works.

And even when ten thousands of angels are mentioned, no one says, ah, ten thousands means there are ONLY 10,000 angels that exist.

Symbolism is more like…yeast being used to portray the teaching of men, 7 fat cows being 7 abundant years, 7 candlesticks portraying 7 churches, a bear being a symbol for an empire or country.
But because a bear is used as a symbol in one place does not mean when the young boys called out a taunt of, you baldy! You baldly! and a bear came out of the woods and ate them, it therefore has to mean it was actually not a bear but an empire that ate them. And because candlesticks were symbols for churches does not mean you replace every place where candlestick is mentioned with the word church.

 

[WPM]

What is the preterist view of the end times? | GotQuestions.org

I am not a Preterist. Can you not do your own research? Links show an ignorance of each subject.

 

[Truth7t7]

But see, that’s not what I would say is a verse of symbolism. And, I don’t think you would think so either IF you weren’t so strenuously trying to argue a particular point. I do NOT have a problem with a…moving in and out of symbolism, like a portion being symbolic and a portion being not symbolic. Prophecy does work strangely and undulates between past, present and future and then back again.
But what you do here is, to my mind, trying to cram a size 10 foot into a size 6 shoe. The beasts are still beasts, the forest is still a forest, the cattle are still cattle, and the hills are still hills. The ONLY portion you say is symbolic is the number. So the ONLY part that’s symbolic is the part that you see as strengthening your argument. And, no one thinks there are ONLY a thousand hills on the whole earth. You don’t think that and neither do any men in here who see some things differently than you. So, as far as your arguments for and against things, this is not your strongest one. It’s pretty weak because, in my opinion, numbers standing for completely different numbers is not what symbolism is about nor how symbolism works.

And even when ten thousands of angels are mentioned, no one says, ah, ten thousands means there are ONLY 10,000 angels that exist.

Symbolism is more like…yeast being used to portray the teaching of men, 7 fat cows being 7 abundant years, 7 candlesticks portraying 7 churches, a bear being a symbol for an empire or country.
But because a bear is used as a symbol in one place does not mean when the young boys called out a taunt of, you baldy! You baldly! and a bear came out of the woods and ate them, it therefore has to mean it was actually not a bear but an empire that ate them. And because candlesticks were symbols for churches does not mean you replace every place where candlestick is mentioned with the word church.

Yes the verse below is showing the human mind there is no earthly time in the Lord's eternal spiritual (Thousand Years) isn't a literal number, just as it's not a literal number in Revelation chapter 20 "Be Not Ignorant"

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am not a Preterist. Can you not do your own research? Links show an ignorance of each subject.

I think I disagree…I’ve used links before, if I think someone has explained something very, very well - maybe better than I could ever hope to. It does not necessarily mean I’m lazy if I do that. It means more that I admire the writers work and explanations and so I put the link up to credit where it came from.

 

[Truth7t7]

I am not a Preterist. Can you not do your own research? Links show an ignorance of each subject.

You're a "Partial Preterist" you can deny it all you want

You believe Matthew 24:15 (Daniel's AOD) and Matthew 24:21 (The Great Tribulation) is fulfilled, you also deny a future literal human man (The Beast) as seen in Revelation chapter 13

Daniel's AOD is "Future" as you have been shown several times

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and (Final Judgement), as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )